Some of you might remember I started a thread back in August of 2020 about a carbine I bought that was piercing primers and my attempts to fix it.  

Well, I got hosed.

The carbine was sold on Gunbroker and the pictures looked good.  It was sold as a fully functional firearm with the only issue being the the sights were slightly off.  Upon receipt of the firearm everything I saw at the FFL looked good.  I took it to the range and it wouldn't cycle. Examining the fired cases showed pierced primers.  Believing it might be a firing pin issue (it wasn't moving completely freely in the bolt) I replaced the firing pin and several springs and still had the issues.  

As further repairs were outside of my area of expertise I contacted Fulton Armory to get on their waitlist to send it in for examination and repair.  I just heard from them today.  They said that the reciever and barrel were cut and welded altering the headspace to beyond a measurable amount.  They also found significant changes to the firing pin safety bridge, trigger mechanism, and other parts rendering the firearm completely unsafe for use.  They say that the gun cannot be repaired.  Well, actually it can be repaired, but they will be replacing the receiver, barrel, etc and it would cost $1200.

So I now have a gun which sold for over $1,000 that is not only non-functional, but so badly mangled that the cost to fix it would make it a $2200+ gun.

I know.  Caveat Emptor.  But it still royally sucks.  All I wanted was a historic shooter in decent shape.

Anyone know what I should do from here?  I doubt the seller or gunbroker would give a crap this far down the line.  I'm tempted to try and sell it as a non-repairable parts gun, but I don't want to hose anyone so I might just keep it as a curio, though I wouldn't want my friends or family to try and use it when I'm gone.  Any other thoughts or options that I'm missing?

1. Yes, you got screwed and it isn't nice.
2. IMHO, if Fulton Armory said both the receiver and barrel are bad,
here is what I see as your options:
Harvest all the good parts off it and destroy the bad receiver (and barrel?)
or
if you want an M1 Carbine still, take Fulton Armory up on their offer.
Accept the fact you have a VERY expensive M1 and enjoy.  

What I don't do is leave bad receivers/barrels laying around or sell them.
So some other "clown" will sell it as "new and no issues" and the cycle will repeat.  

And $2200 isn't stupid totally holy crap what a rip expensive.
Sure it's on the high side but they are not getting cheaper.
If no children or animals are harmed by paying it, go for it.
Or buy another one and start the cycle over.

If you pay it , in a year the hurt  will be gone and you'll still have the Carbine.

Receiver would make for a nice paperweight.

Could turn it into a lamp
Non firing wall hanger (though I'd deactivate it similar to a drill rifle)

In for a dollar in for a pound. Unless you can recoup close to the entire cost by parting it out, I'd spend the $1200 to have a shooter. Unless you want to tempt fate again with over $1000 and gamble on another pig in a poke.

I would say go for it.  If Fulton does it your gun will be right.

Trying to find another shooter for $1k would be his or miss and there is no guarantee it would run any better.

Personally, I would let Fulton do what they can for the $1200 they quoted. It would cost you at least that much if you wanted another Carbine and again you run the risk of buying junk. A new FA Carbine starts at twice of what they quoted you to repair yours.

I've had FA service 4 Carbines so far (all decent shape, 1 did need a new barrel and 2 I had new ones put on for my own peace of mind) plus they have 1 now being reparked, I trust their work

I would contact the seller and see what refund you can get, at least leave a bad seller alert on his profile.

Another vote for letting FA do the work.

Did you get on their wait list back in 2020?  Just curious as I have one that has been on the waitlist since March of 2021.  Provides a rough sense of how much longer I should expect to wait .

Thanks for the perspective.   I'm leaning heavily toward just having them build me a new gun with my usable parts.  I was considering buying a new Fulton for a non-historic just for fun gun later on down the line.  Maybe this can become that gun.

On a completely unrelated note: how are the "NRA Good Condition" M1 carbines that Classic are currently selling?  ??

Again my personal opinion. Given the choice (and I realize the history is important for M1 Carbine owners) I would go with the FA option for now. You will have a excellent shooter Carbine (this coming from someone who just took one of his FA Carbines to the range and ran 100 rounds without missing a beat). that will be well worth the money.

If you decide you want a more "historic" one start looking real time and learn what you should look for as warning signs. Unless a Gunbroker seller gives you a limited time return policy.

I would also keep an eye on the EE here for sales by members. I know several who have sold very nice Carbines recently (GGibbs recently had a nice one for $1200 bucks) that I would buy myself if I was looking for another



Fortunately for me I need another M1 Carbine like I need a hole in my head   (Actually I have 9, 1 is at FA for a repark....and I now own 2 Garands....this ain't a forum, more like a addicts meeting place )

It happens....that's why all welded garands and carbines are considered unsafe to shoot and I condemn all that comes thru my shop.

Just did a barrel job on a carbine and garand with the garand getting parked.

Attached File

Another option is to sell it letting people know the issues and recommend it as wall hanger or reenactor rifle. You will probably be surprised what someone would give you for it. I am shocked what welded M1’s sell for.

I was just thinking the same thing, I’d be interested in it for that.

Problem with that is the OP still will have to find a M1 Carbine if he still wants one. Having Fulton build him one using the parts left from the bad rifle gives him a quality Carbine

I didn't talk to a friend of my uncle until he died because he was one of those fucken assholes who was rewelding M1 garand and carbine receivers, he even managed to sell m14 receivers that he remachined into fake M1A.


I had enough of his shit when during Sandy Hook, he was selling rewelded M16 bolt carriers.


I just had a enough and someone WILL get hurt.

What have you seen them going for?

The only 1 I can remember ever seeing went for $600 bucks IIRR. Reenactors tend to use blank adapted commercial carbines IMO or USGI Carbines with blank adaptors.

I doubt you'll get what you have in it. The plus side of FA using what you have for a build is it sounds like their using their new production receiver, bolt and a new Criterion barrel and they are rebuilding the trigger group, using the slide and stock group.

 You stated- All I wanted was a historic shooter in decent shape., so if you go with Fulton, you're going to get a commercial carbine that costs around $2200, which to me makes no sense. If you're OK with a commercial you could watch for one of the 1st Generation Universals or one of the Israel International Arms (IAI) examples. I've owned both (still own the Universal) and both are of good quality, and the IAI's often sell for under $1000 on Gunbroker. If you just want a Fulton, then that's a different matter. If you want a USGI there are lots of options.
 
Classic does offer several different makes of M1 Carbines priced from $1199 and up. I've bought lots of firearms from them in the past and was always satisfied. I watch Gunbroker religiously and once every 3 or so weeks a nice USGI will for some reason sell for around $1000. I recently bought a Saginaw there for $710. I recently saw a really nice IBM sell on the AKFiles site for $1300. So deals are out there. Plus if you go with a USGI, you can part out your useless carbine and recoup maybe $200-$300 of you money, depending on the make of the parts.

I don’t disagree, just thought I’d put it out there since I could use a rifle to beat on for re-enactments if OP decided that he just didn’t want to mess with it.

The sad part is he'll be out at least the $2200 buying one from Classic if you count the 1K plus he already spent on the junk carbine. I hate to sound like a FA fanboy but having them build one with what he has for $1200 sounds like a good deal, then if he gets bitten by the Carbine bug (and I hear that sucker lurking in his corner ) he can do what both of us have suggested........start shopping around for another but learn what to look for.

So they are saying that in addition to a rewelded receiver, you have a rewelded barrel and a "modified" trigger group?

I'd be looking for a 2nd opinion from someone not trying to talk me into 1200.00 worth of parts/labor

How about a pic or two ???

Here is what I got in writing after a phone call.  They also sent two pictures, but I don't have a cloud based image service to up load them to right now.

"The receiver and barrel appear to have been welded at some point and critical dimensions altered. The headspace is beyond measure and creates a very dangerous situation when fired. The firing pin retraction safety mechanism built into the design is also altered and creates a dangerous situation. We found several other parts unserviceable as well and will provide an invoice for recommended repairs. Please see attached photos showing the welded/re-machined areas."

FA is going to charge him just a little less than I can get an USGI arsenal mixmaster at the local gun show. He will be out 2x what he should be and have a less collectible rifle. Selling it, he could then buy that USGI mixmaster and be out 1 1/2x what he should have been and have a more collectible rifle.

Depending on what parts are useable. Also gun shows are hit or miss IMO. I went to the OGCA show here in Ohio last week and the cheapest Carbine I saw was $1400 bucks for a import marked one. Most were near the $1700-2K range.

The monthly gun show here in Cincinnati I haven't seen a Carbine in months. I see some at LGS's but the prices have creeped up from the price range you mention to the $1500-2K range. 1 LGS has steadily raised the price of 1 Carbine he's had for about a year from the $1200 dollar range to $1600 bucks.

The sad thing is the batch of Italian Carbines Midway USA got in last year drove Carbine prices up IMO. They were asking from  $1300-1900 for those and everyone now thinks their Blue Sky import is worth that.

You do find deals with some looking and luck, myself included in that. But OP isn't a experienced "Carbine Hunter" (Tia Carrere can costar ) so finding one will take work and patience

Trying to find another Carbine at a gunshow, via Gunbroker, etc. risks getting another problem child. Remember, on initial inspection, this one looked OK, too. No guarantee you won't need Fulton to get the new Carbine running.
If you can't find a CMP rifle, just let Fulton do their thing and be done with it.

When I look at photos of demilled carbine receivers, they are all cut through the middle.  How would welding them back together affect headspace?  Maybe they just threw in a random bolt and didn't care to check headspace?

This is a good explanation of the subject

https://www.fulton-armory.com/faqs/M1G-FAQs/Weld.htm

Most repudiable gunsmiths avoid using welded Carbine and Garand receivers like the plague. Hopefully the OP remembers who the seller was and gives him a bad seller alert. I'm looking for a Carbine receiver myself to use with a barrel I have but unless I see CMP papers or Fulton starts selling their own receivers again I figure that barrel will sit unless I find a Blue Sky import marked one at a cheap price I can use as a build project.

The way I see this situation, the money is already gone. If the OP wants a Carbine that he knows will function correctly and is built right then he should go with Fulton. It may not be a collectors item but it will work correctly and will last his lifetime and beyond.

Yep, bought in August 2020.   That ship has sailed, not sure if you can even leave a review almost two years out.   I would if I could for running a reweld in poor condition.  

I won’t buy a reweld and have found a couple.   One was a NM IHC with a clumsily welded receiver.  The lack of smooth bolt raceway channels and now tweaked safety bridge dimensions.   F that.  Guy wanted $1400 at that time 18 years ago on consignment.  I pointed out the reweld to the gunsmith, my friend.  He set it aside as he wanted it out of the shop.   His wife the business owner put it back out as it was her gunshow buddy’s rifle.

Not my problem I guess.  That said I don’t worry about them flying apart as the barrel is attached to the receiver and the bolt lugs lock up well forward of the cut and weld.  I worry about them running, i worry about excess wear from bad raceways, I worry about twisted or mislocated safety bridges.  A good rifle is out there so why mess with scraps.

This is the problem with the milsurp market. Too many re-lifed demilled and drill rifles and their parts. People that don’t know what to look for either buy junk not knowing or pay more for some nice commercial rebuild with much less collector value.

The way to get over being a newby buyer is research heavily on the net on issues and collector features, cruise auction ads to see different rifles and look at every rifle you see at shows or gun shops. Then when you get comfortable with being able to judge condition and value, start shopping for something in decent condition for a fair price you can hold before you buy. It is time consuming to collect milsurp rifles.

Wow!, that sucks but you are probably correct.  

After two years, how would you ever get a remedy from either the seller or Gunbroker?  Imagine the effort required.

OP, you got hosed.  I would be PISSED OFF!  

Make a good faith effort to get your money back and be sure to give feedback on the seller's Gunbroker account.  



Carbines are awfully handy little firearms, so the Fulton Armory option sounds good to me, too.  Maybe treat yourself to something more than just a minimally functioning repair.

I agree with a lot of the sentiment here. There's no ideal answers.

I'd be tempted to throw good money after bad, to at least wind up with a functional rifle. To get to a functional carbine, you're going to be out ~$1200 in this market, either way. At least with this one, you know what you're dealing with.

I ran into a similar issue with a "converted" Poly M14s. Yeah, it had a GI barrel and bolt installed, but the tools that installed the bolt ground the lugs to make headspace, resulting in a barely functional rifle that shouldn't be fired and throws extractors like that's it's job.

Going to send it to Fulton or Warbird to get a new bolt installed, but once I'm done, I'm going to be upside down on the rifle by probably a couple of hundred or so. Sucks, but at least it won't be a complete loss.

I don't know if the OP is a member of this forum, but IMO this would be a Carbine I would "trust"

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/wts-1944-inland-m1-carbine-post-war-police-use.1220628/

Doubtful it's a reweld. I would hope while it was a DPD weapon it was shot little. In ARFCOM fashion I would say get that and also have FA fix the one they have now.....2 is 1 and 1 is none or get both apply

It's that Toledo Police department as in Toledo, OH or Toledo, Spain?

Because of it's Ohio, I kinda need that thing

 This is the only carbine I've heard of whose receiver had been welded. Like others, I'm still not sure how that could affect headspace. I've owned/fired exactly two rifles that had headspace problems and both of them were centerfire bottleneck cartridges. Both, even with light loads, would flatten and/or blow primers (but not pierce them) due to the case not headspacing on the shoulder and the case head not being against the bolt face. I have a hard time wrapping my head around a cartridge case that headspaces on the mouth having headspace problems yet still firing. If the headspace is short, the bolt won't fully close, if it's long I would think either the extractor would hold the case against the bolt face which would allow the cartridge to be fired, or if it were very long such that the extractor wouldn't catch the rim, the firing pin simply wouldn't reach the primer. As I've said here many times, shooters swap barrels and slides willy-nilly on all manner of 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP, etc., all of which headspace on the case mouth, and never give a second thought to headspace. But for some reason with .30 Carbine, everyone seems to get nervous about it. When I was a newbie carbine collector I bought and swapped bolts around in probably a half dozen carbines I own in an effort to match the bolts to the receivers where the manufacturer is concerned. Not once have I had a single problem and I still shoot every one of these carbines. But, I digress....

 Back to what to do....

I guess my only hesitation with the Fulton route is once finished, since it appears they plan to use many of the parts from the original carbine, is you'd have sort of a mutt, for lack of a better term. Part Fulton, part USGI which to my way of thinking would keep it from being as valuable as one that is 100% Fulton or 100% USGI. But you'd have the confidence of knowing it is "right" in every way. As far as buying a USGI goes, when an incident like this is made known, suddenly every original USGI carbine out there is suspect and bound to have problems. The fact is, hundreds if not thousands of these little rifles change hands every year yet on the forums problems made known are typically limited to feeding issues.

 Anyhow, best of luck with your decision, OP!

Actually that's how Fulton Armory makes their Carbine's. They use their receiver, bolt and barrels and every thing else is USGI parts except maybe the stock metal. My 3 FA Carbines have either Inland or IBM trigger groups, and assorted USGI slides.

They either use NOS stock or refurbished parts, I can't tell. Thats why I think he's getting the best of a bad situation having them do it

Overall, it's easy to spend other peoples money.

Unfortunately, finding a WWII barrel and receiver in decent shape to restore your carbine would probably take a long time.
Lots of people seem to be looking for receivers.
Over at the Carbine Collectors Club I see receivers on the WTB lists.

I would lean towards having Fulton restore the carbine. You will have a functional carbine that will probably last the rest of your life.
If they will return your old barreled receiver with the repaired carbine, you have something to hang on the wall and a story to go with your carbine.

I have a '44 Underwood (bought in 1990) that I love shooting, but every time I take it out,
in the back of my mind I wonder if something will break or if the will receiver crack, there are no guarantees.

let FA do the work.

In a year, the sting of overpaying will subside and you'll have a kickass M1

This is more and more becoming my view on alot of stuff. YOLO and all that.

This is the FA Carbine I took to the range Sunday (trying to spur the OP on )



It ran like a top and shot better than I ever will. It'll get him in the door with a reliable Carbine and he can start his search for a more "pure" USGI one

"The quality remains long after the price is forgotten" - Sir Henry Royce (of Rolls-Royce)

I'd send it to Fulton.

Yes, you'll be out more money, but you'll know it's right.

Buying another you might get another one that needs substantial work to run correctly.

The OP's Carbine is at Fulton

To give the OP some perspective 2020 I had FA redo a Carbine that really didn't need much work, but I intended it to be my "Shooter" Carbine so I had a new chromed lined barrel and new FA bolt installed (I kept the decent Inland 1944 barrel and post war USGI bolt as spares that I have FA recrown and rebuild the bolt).

Total cost of that ran around $900 bucks with return shipping.



Carbine in question. According to my range log it's seen 4100 rounds since and runs like a top with good mags. It's still my main range Carbine

I wouldn't hesitate to use it any SHTF situation. It's seen Ultimak rails and red dots and was my planned "truck gun" had Trump won 2020 over my AR's with a folding stock

It's more fun this way...

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We need to entice the OP, he needs a reliable Carbine

OP, you are in good company, I've had to learn the hard way about carbines - but not quite as rough as your situation.  Carbines are notorious for being beat to hell and the moral of the story is to take each one to the range before purchase!

Personally, I'd have Fulton Armory fix it.

You all are terrible/awesome influences. I think I'm going to get it fixed up and see what it would cost to refinish the parts that are being reused to get a like-new gun out of the crummy deal.  Then I'm going to go back to searching for a carbine in decent shape with some history behind it.

.

IIRC a repark is $175. Since their using a new receiver and barrel it should be less

Following this thread has me interested in hiring Fulton to rehab my carbine.  It's a Blue Sky import, so all GI, but it's been through a lot.  I looked at their web page, their "Step 1" is to buy a $25 box with a $10 handling fee from them to ship the gun, which would seem to put the customer in a hole before the gun leaves my house, which kinda goes up my ass sideways.  Would they actually refuse to work on a gun not shipped in one of their boxes?