So a popular YouTube personality filmed himself with a Kriss vector and SBtactical factory brace kit.  He then install a foregrip and is now calling it a firearm because he says it made the 26 inch requirement.  I did extensive reading on this subject and from everything I read the Vector couldn’t make the length requirement with the SBtactical vector brace kit.  I am almost 100% of SBtactical products are designed for pistols first.  If this possible does anyone know the measurements or have pictures.  What I am trying to prove is that he created an illegal sbr now maybe that was not his intent.  However vid is proclaiming that this is totally legal and personally I don’t want to see other people get in trouble because they copied this guy.  If you read the comments I am at like 7 replies to this individual.  If I am wrong I am happy to say so.

Here is the link

https://youtu.be/BXpg1AzHjKE

According to the specs below from the respective manufacturers the pistol without a brace is 16.75" OAL and the brace is 8.7" long, so yeah I don't see how they could be over 26" when combined.

https://kriss-usa.com/pistols/special-duty-pistol/vector-sdp-black
https://www.sb-tactical.com/product/vector-psb/

There is a youtube video of someone who was 3D printing Tailhook adapters for the Kriss factory stock and had two versions, a short one that mounts it similarly to the original buttpad, and another that pushed it back an inch and a half to make the "pistol" a "firearm" and enabled it to have the vertical foegrip.

That wouldn't work for me because I already have a hard enough time trying to get a cheek weld on the Kriss...arm brace mounting platform. Placing my face further back will only hurt the issue.I would rather pin a suppressor mount on the barrel than extend the...arm brace mounting platform.

Kriss makes a Vector Pistol with a 6.5” barrel for the California market.  If you add the brace to the CA specific model it may make the length requirement. The OAL would then be 26.45”

Ok so they used to make that model?  Do you happen to know which generation it was?  I just checked their website and the ca compliant models I saw are now all rifle length with that long fake can.  I am asking about the generation because of SBtactical production runs for the gun and I am surprised more guys weren’t seeking out those models?

I have one of the CA models that I SBR'd (I live in PA, not CA).  The only reason I got the CA model is because new it was $250 cheaper on Gun Broker than any others listed on GB.  Mine is a Gen2 but when I purchased mine they did not list it on their web site as an option.  I suspect they still make them but just don't list them as an option.  You can confirm this pretty quickly with a phone call to their customer service dept.

Ok I found the 6.5 inch barrel but it was only offered on the select fire sub machine guns for law enforcement and military according to Wikipedia.  It was a gen 2 definitely not the gun in the video.  You can definitely see that extra inch from pictures of it in that configuration.  So it’s possible they produced 6.5 inch gun in semi auto.  The gun in the video is definitely a 5.5 inch so he definitely created an illegal sbr.  None of this matters guy started deleting my posts disagreeing with him.  Basically I asked for a parts list so I could build my own.  It is interesting that it’s possible you could have made a firearm just by getting that barrel.  Surprised no one worked on a retro fit for a 6.5 inch barrel so guys could create firearms and add foregrip.

It’s more than possible that they offered a semi-auto pistol with a 6.5” barrel,  its a fact (because I have one).  The question is “do they still make them”.  The only way to get a definite answer is to call KRISS because when I got mine they did not list it as an option.  Just because they do not list options doesn’t mean they are not available

I watched the video you posted and that guy definitely has a pistol with a 5.5” barrel so he did in fact make an illegal NFA item

Just a FYI - it wouldn't be an SBR, it would be an unregistered AOW

I disagree. In the video that is a illegally constructed SBR.  It’s a vector pistol 5.5 inch barrel with the SBtactical brace kit which includes the buffer tube.  It doesn’t make the 26 inches nesscary to be a firearm/aow.  So it becomes a SBR when he added the foregrip.  Obviously his intent was to create a firearm/aow but because he failed to measure correctly likely didn’t care and it’s likely never paid the 5 dollar fee.  The dealer possibly would have caught while paying the fee,because there ass is on the line, that it was short or he has his own ffl so he can do reviews. If he had his own ffl this would make it worse in intent cause ffl holders are held to a higher standard.  My personal opinion he had the intent to create the sbr because of his responses to people who were pointing it out.  Also the other guy(referred to as the firearms expert) in the video had two scorpions had all of his stuff was legal and the content creator embarrassed an unknowing cop into believing it was legal.  I believe he knew it was short and likely did research telling him that.  It’s easily fixed either by having the factory 6.5 inch barrel, permanently fixing a 1 inch muzzle device, or adding a buffer tube that is an inch longer.  He responses also indicate he understands the law and did it anyway.  He is like every other YouTuber drumming up drama to get views which is despicable.  As soon as one of the YouTube personalities does this I dislike the video and hopfully YouTube won’t recommend there channel.  I also make sure not to buy from vendors that support them and I have contemplated contacting their supporting vendors. The reason for this is they are leading others to also make poor choices. There are tons of responsible YouTube channels to subscribe too.

If it's under 26" it's an AOW, since the definition of an AOW includes "concealable" and ATF says 26" is the limit of "concealable".

An SBR has a stock, just like a rifle. A brace is not a stock.

Over 26" is a "Firearm", not an AOW, so the decision is whether it's an Firearm (over26") or AOW (under 26").

Also note some odd stuff out of Connecticut with counting a folding brace length as folded, not unfolded, contrary to how they measure a stock.

It didn’t make the firearm 26 inches requirement and had a fore grip installed.  Therefore that is an sbr.  He has always maintained it was over 26 but that isn’t possible with the SBtactical vector buffer kit.  If he had a different buffer the brace would show an extra inch fully collapsed it didn’t.  As far as I know aow’s can’t have foregrips either.  Not one time did he say or indicate it was a aow and that he paid the fee.  Notice how he maintains it’s a BCM angled foregrip that is still a foregrip with no letter from the atf stating it falls in the line with the magpul angled grip or other devices that have approval letters.  The guy seems like he knows the line he is pushing and I hope he is right so I can put BCM angled foregrips on my guns.

Dude, if you want to continue to nitpick others, you might want to know the laws better.

A pistol with a vertical grip is an AOW

If it is under 26" it is either a pistol (no stock or vert grip), an AOW (no stock), or a SBR (stock or made from a rifle)

A brace (even with a vert grip) doesn't get it into SBR status no matter the length, it's either a pistol or an AOW

And of course this is all federally speaking, state laws get too varied to bother discussing on a general scale

Ok, I am just asking would you have that firearm/aow/pistol/sbr in your house with a foregrip installed.  I am not nick picking his choices I am saying the he is ignorant of the atf rules, potentially created an illegal sbr or blankly disregarded atf rules.   The YouTuber already said it wasn’t an aow and eluded that he didn’t pay the either fee for an aow.  We have established from the video it didn’t make the 26 length in its current configuration.  We have established it’s possible to get a vector to 26 inches.  So please explain to me how his gun is legal from the parts you can see in the video.  I am interested how he made it with vector pistol specific parts, no 6.5 inch barrel, and no welded muzzle device.  Also from the actual video you can clearly see no rifle buffer tube installed.  Your not really contributing to the thread in regards to the vector in the video as to why you believe it’s legal.  Your literally citing atf definitions of what different devices are classified.  Ummm..... that seems familiar exactly what the YouTuber did avoid all conversations about his firearms actual spec and cite atf regulations to throw off readers or more likely the ATF.  Look it’s serious business and the rules change all the time at the atf with different letters coming out.  Those people on the YouTube that cut their ar15’s in half got visits from the atf.  This guy ignorance could potentially get anyone of his 30k subs in trouble because they did exactly what he did and guess what it was wrong.  I have long stated to him and I will state to you it’s possible his gun is in a legal configuration but he is very quiet about how he made that happen.  He has answered no questions with regards to parts that’s his right and I understand that but that doesn’t mean his gun is in a legal configuration.  Most times guys are happy to share their configurations so that the masses might benefit.

The telescoping brace?  It is measured extended per feds, but not if it folds

Yep. An AOW if he is wrong.

Note that all measurements are orrallel to the bore.

Note that atf is now saying that OAL measurements of pistols/firearms are w the brace extended if it does not fold but only telescopes but folded if it does fold.

I think it is the grip in question here and not the length..

There is an ATF letter stating that a grip that isn't perpendicular (90 degree) to the bore IS NOT CONSIDERED a vfg.

Which, going by the letter, would make his configuration legal as the BCM grip is most certainly angled.

The letter

Not sure why you seem so set on proving that what he is doing is illegal, but it's a grey area at best with the BCM AFG and I'd just let it be.

The atf letter posted was not written for the bravo company angled foregrip.  While I agree with you that the atf just stated that 90 degrees is essentially what they measure by BCM doesn’t have letter.  BCM even admits that technically you might be good they have not asked the atf to test any of their products including the cag.  Listen if people want to live on the edge of legal firearms that is there right.  Honestly I have no problem with that.  By putting it on a video and basically stating your firearm is legal does not mean that it is.  All I am stating no way that guy sent pictures or the firearm/aow/sbr/pistol of whatever he wants to call that vector to the atf for evaluation.  Others watching that video should not copy his assembly.  I would actually like to see the bravo company angled foregrip get a letter.  I could then add them to a few of my pistols till then I consider them a foregrip.

Again, you are nitpicking a specific build and accusing it of something it can't possibly be. If you are going to do that you might want to learn the "rules" so you get your accusations right and don't look like an ass doing it.

There is no legal way for a joe citizen to submit a design to the ATF for a determination letter, only manufacturers can do such a thing

I believe I am right or you would contribute to this thread of why the the gun is legal.

All I am stating no way that guy sent pictures or the firearm/aow/sbr/pistol of whatever he wants to call that vector to the atf for evaluation. Did you read this sentence?

Believe what you want, my kids believe in the tooth fairy; there is no way a firearm that started life as a pistol and doesn't have a stock attached is an illegal SBR - period.

Yes I did read it, did you read the reply you quoted. I know the guy didn't send in pictures for evaluation, you can't. The only way to get an evaluation is with a sample sent in. And the only ones able to do that are licensed manufacturers.

And if it hasn't sunk in by now it never will, so this is my last reply - good day!

Thank you for contributing

Attached File


This was you as a kid wasn't it OP?

Seriously, instead of you being a dick to the dude you could have just messaged him and pointed it out that he possibly might be showing that he made an illegal AOW so he might want to review it. It is only a $5 stamp to correct it as well if he wanted to keep it an AOW.

That is another thing, know the law before you start throwing it at people. That is an AOW, not an SBR. We put braces on pistols so they remain classified as pistols. An SBR needs to be built with a stock to be a SBR. You know the old saying, remove the log from your eye first before you try to remove the splinter from mine.

Does this mean the Thompson VFG isn't a VFG? Because it's certainly not at a 90 deg. angle.

And that Kriss video has since been removed by the original poster.

If it does not and never had a stock, then it can never be a rifle, much less an SBR. An AOW, that is a different story.

Thank you for replying as we can no longer see the example of what I am talking about I believe this thread is now irrelevant.  I believe the YouTuber did the responsible thing and removed the video.  Southern phantom as you can’t see the example from the video.  I will just tell you whether you believe me or not.  The YouTuber was never calling it an aow or him having to pay with fee associated an aow($5 or $200).  Someone in this thread mentioned a unregistered AOW which I have no knowledge on the legalities of hell its the first time I heard the term.  Everyone here may attack me if you wish what you don’t understand is I was also attacked by the YouTuber subs that didn’t change the facts the YouTuber created something not legal.  So if you wish to continue to attack me please continue because it brings awareness.  I have always stated if you can prove that the YouTubers Kriss vector set up was legal then please do by all means.  I literally am extremely interested and it would help push me toward buying a vector pistol and putting a bravo company foregrip on with a factory vector SBtactical pistol brace. It’s possible others in this thread have proved with 6.5 inch barrel but no one attacking me wants to address that the 5.5 barrel vector and making it a legal aow with the 5 dollar stamp.  Guys I think this is pretty simple if Kriss had a product that was a factory aow I think they would build it and sell it.  Similar to what the franklin Armory(the letter that got foregrips on firearms over 26 inches), mossberg (shockwave) and Remington did.

Per federal law any pistol, with a rifled bore and a forward grip, can not be a AOW.  It would only apply to a smooth bore and combination smooth bore and rifled bore. Your kriss doesnt have that and the USC specifically states it can't be an aow. This came from an old opinion in which the ATF just tried to find a title II category to put a forward grip pistol in. I don't know why a new letter hasn't been written to clarify. It would correctly be considered a "firearm" buy the code as it is written.

FFS - here direct from the horse's mouth - https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

Should prob move the whole thread to GD for all the stupidity

Thats the ATF opinion. Unfortunately the code is black and white so they cant change the code without legislative action and the removal of the portion stating rifles barrels.

I do understand the ATF said that but please read the USC not what someone said on the internet or what some said the ATF said out of context. Even a published ATF opinion is not where one should get legal advice. I do understand trying to go by what the ATF says as a guideline.

ATF "opinion" is only changed through the courts and case law - Good Luck