User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
NV, USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 6:25:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: spydercomonkey]
Saw this on another forum, as well as X - Tavor to be replaced with an Israeli made AR type rifle (likely the ARAD). Notably very few Tavors have been seen (at least by me) in the current Gaza lawn mowing.
https://www.northeastshooters.com/xen/threads/idf-to-replace-tavor-with-israeli-made-ar.469898/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/comments/1b7wkrt/israel_is_abandoning_the_tavor_and_the_m4_for_a/ The weapon revolution for IDF soldiers: Israeli AR instead of the M4 and Tavor In a quick move during the war, the Procurement Administration at the Ministry of Defense bought about 20,000 M-16 based M4 rifles and 3,000 Tavor rifles, but prepared for the big move in the field units: a uniform Israeli weapon, which will be similar to the M4. The Givati and Golani fighters may say goodbye to Tavor this year. The army intends to go back and base itself on unified Israeli weapons in the field of assault rifles for the field units, mainly for the infantry soldiers. To this end, the procurement administration at the Ministry of Defense is launching a huge tender for tens of thousands of rifles between three local weapon manufacturers: "Silver Shadow" which manufactures the Gilboa rifle, MZ weapons of the "Amatan" company, and the Arad rifle of IWI. All three are from the AR family of weapons. In this way, the IDF will phase out the Israeli Tavor rifles that were intended about two decades ago to be the replacements for the American rifles, but were not distributed beyond three infantry brigades: Givati, Golani and Nahal. As an interim step before the introduction of Israeli weapons, the Tavors will be transferred to non-infantry field units (armor, artillery and possibly also for engineering. In the meantime, due to the wear and tear of the existing weapons during the war, the procurement administration at the Ministry of Defense ordered about 20 thousand American M4 rifles and another 3,000 Tavor rifles. The Ministry of Defense emphasizes that the two Israeli manufacturers who win the tender will have to meet strict conditions even though their weapons have already been successfully sold to security units in Israel, which belong to the police and Shin Bet, and to foreign armies. "The Tavor was based on a mechanism of a rear assembly, which has become less common in Western armies, less suitable for operating some of the restraints, and it has relative disadvantages in fighting in closed areas, as we saw in the fighting in Gaza," a senior IDF officer who leads the intensification project.  "We are after in-depth research on the subject and comparative experiments that we conducted with fighters from the Givati, Kafir brigades and paratroopers, to make sure it's not just a gut feeling of commanders. We realized in the tests we did at the ranges that we had to switch to a unified weapon version because significant gaps have arisen on the subject, mainly in the reserve battalions that are fed from different units, and from soldiers that some of them used Tavor and others M4". The ambition to be based on Israeli assault rifles will be the third in recent decades, after the first two - the Galilee rifles In the 1970s and 1980s, and the Tavors from the beginning of the 2000s, they did not succeed fully and for a long time. "The move will allow high maintenance flexibility, will prevent conversions for fighters who will move from regular to reserve, will provide a uniform spare parts market and will save logistical costs over the years," added the officer, "the ambition is that the new M4s we received from the U.S. will be distributed this year to the Givati and Golani fighters, in order to let them get to know and start using the same weapon technology that will later be Israeli-made for them as well." In my estimation, we will complete the move by mid-2025." And meme I came across while researching this, which accurately shows the state of bullpups on the international arms market:  |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 6:47:15 AM EDT
[#1]
Israel has been buying M16 carbine variants with US foreign aid since the 1980s.
That's why the Galil and Tavor were never fully adopted and you see so many IDF armed with M16 carbines / M4s. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 6:55:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Voland]
[#2]
Imported surplus tavors you say?
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 7:05:27 AM EDT
[#3]
Having owned and fired both I can see why.
While the Tavor is a very interesting weapon, and shorter in length, it in no way has the ergonomic ease of use that the AR15/M16/M4 has. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 7:21:13 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ODA_564: Israel has been buying M16 carbine variants with US foreign aid since the 1980s. That's why the Galil and Tavor were never fully adopted and you see so many IDF armed with M16 carbines / M4s. The Galil adoption was doomed way back in 1973 when we flew in plane loads of M16’s during the Yom Kippur war. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 7:44:01 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Voland: Imported surplus tavors you say? Yes please |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 9:51:32 AM EDT
[#6]
Doesn't change anything for me, I still wouldn't kick a X95 SBR out of bed for eating crackers.
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 10:07:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Diamond2J]
[#7]
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: "The Tavor was based on a mechanism of a rear assembly, which has become less common in Western armies, less suitable for operating some of the restraints, and it has relative disadvantages in fighting in closed areas, as we saw in the fighting in Gaza," a senior IDF officer who leads the intensification project. Admittedly I am not a bullpup owner and have not had the opportunity to operate one but this sounds like the opposite of what I've been told about bullpups? Barrel is at least as long but shorter overall so you can maneuver closed areas better? What does that mean? ETA - Not GD, sorry |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 10:15:59 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ODA_564: Israel has been buying M16 carbine variants with US foreign aid since the 1980s. That's why the Galil and Tavor were never fully adopted and you see so many IDF armed with M16 carbines / M4s. Israel was receiving M-16s back in the 1970s in the aftermath of the Yom Kipur war of 1973. We still see plenty those old A1s live on as the carbines still being used today. Thank "Uncle Sam" for that Sugar. |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 12:15:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: GaryT1776]
[#9]
I was in Israel and Palestine this time last year. I saw one Tavor and countless AR15 / M4 variants. Every handgun I saw was a Glock.
      |
|
|
SC, USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 12:44:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Eugene Stoner wins again.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 12:48:58 PM EDT
[#11]
I wonder what the urban use shortcoming was.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 2:17:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tomac: I wonder what the urban use shortcoming was. I would say too bulky/heavy and slower to reload in CQB. Just my guess. Gas in the face is not ideal either. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 2:41:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sanlanman: Eugene Stoner wins again. |
|
|
|
GA, USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 2:47:15 PM EDT
[#14]
No zion-15s for them? I guess those are one of the strictly civilian products like the tavor shotgun?
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 2:49:20 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tomac: I wonder what the urban use shortcoming was. The USA didn’t buy it for them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 3:01:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TAG_Match: The USA didn’t buy it for them. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TAG_Match: Originally Posted By Tomac: I wonder what the urban use shortcoming was. The USA didn’t buy it for them. That had crossed my mind... 
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 3:12:58 PM EDT
[#17]
I’m assuming it will be an ARAD style upper system that is piston driven
That or another easily mass produced M4 |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 3:13:31 PM EDT
[#18]
How do you say “bullpups suck” in Hebrew?
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 3:13:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tomac: That had crossed my mind... This I prefer the standard (13" sbr) Tavor over the AR in spades... but everything is about the money, AR's are cheaper, AND we have plenty to sell or give |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 3:34:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PreachermanMATT: This I prefer the standard (13" sbr) Tavor over the AR in spades... but everything is about the money, AR's are cheaper, AND we have plenty to sell or give Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PreachermanMATT: Originally Posted By Tomac: That had crossed my mind... This I prefer the standard (13" sbr) Tavor over the AR in spades... but everything is about the money, AR's are cheaper, AND we have plenty to sell or give The *only* reason I didn't get the 13" X95 is the NFA hassle. Wasn't worth it for 3" of bbl, imho (ymmv). |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 3:43:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: I would say too bulky/heavy and slower to reload in CQB. Just my guess. Gas in the face is not ideal either. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: Originally Posted By Tomac: I wonder what the urban use shortcoming was. I would say too bulky/heavy and slower to reload in CQB. Just my guess. Gas in the face is not ideal either. I was curious about that line as well. That's one of the whole points fo bullpups, is to be shorter and allower better CQB operations. Obviously the guy has more time-in-setting than I do, so I'd like ot learn more on his thoughts on that. FWIW, to your point, that's kind of why I 've all but retired my AUG, and now run an RDB as my primary. no gas/brass-in-face, and much lighter; yet still a very small compact bullpup that's shorter than a MK18 even in deployment (comparisons to AR's with folded stocks are silly - IMHO). |
|
|
|
ITA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 3:50:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Frens]
[#22]
I truly believe there’s a global plan to issue an AR style platform among all allies… we’re getting ready for the inevitable and we want a common platform.
Every major gun manufacturer has an AR on catalog… HK, Beretta, steyr, Sako, etc Even a country in war like UKR is building their own AR. More and more countries are converting to the AR in EU ETA: AR community invading Jerusalem  |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 3:54:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Shackleford_R]
[#23]
in other words "we have to buy ARs because that's what our allies use".
people act like industry momentum doesn't exist. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 3:55:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: I would say too bulky/heavy and slower to reload in CQB. Just my guess. Gas in the face is not ideal either. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: Originally Posted By Tomac: I wonder what the urban use shortcoming was. I would say too bulky/heavy and slower to reload in CQB. Just my guess. Gas in the face is not ideal either. Inability to switch shoulders on the fly too. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 4:14:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tomac: The *only* reason I didn't get the 13" X95 is the NFA hassle. Wasn't worth it for 3" of bbl, imho (ymmv). MM Indeed does V 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 4:23:32 PM EDT
[#26]
Sounds like it has more to do with commonality of training and maintenance between their active and reserve forces than any particular deficiency of the Tavor.
Any "low density" fielding of equipment is going to be higher cost per unit by definition. But it does make a lot of sense for armor and artillery troops to still have them. It isn't their primary weapon anyway, and the compactness is arguably more useful, where they will spend the majority of time in arms rooms or stored in a vehicle. |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 4:24:41 PM EDT
[#27]
I wonder if this has anything to do with why IWI US all of a sudden got spare parts in recently
|
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 4:29:00 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: Having owned and fired both I can see why. While the Tavor is a very interesting weapon, and shorter in length, it in no way has the ergonomic ease of use that the AR15/M16/M4 has. This. They're just Ewww. |
|
|
FL, USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 8:24:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JJL0325]
[#29]
Can't say I don't blame them. With the exception of weapon balance, the AR platform is just way more user friendly and easier to customize.
I have a left handed Tavor SAR that I really only keep since they don't make them anymore and it's just different. |
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 10:47:20 PM EDT
[#30]
They have been using short M-16 for a long time. That's what they call them they are not M4.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 10:51:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jkees]
[#31]
Good.
God 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 11:13:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jkees: Good. God hates bullpups. Why you in the bullpup forum then
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 11:26:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Frens: I truly believe there’s a global plan to issue an AR style platform among all allies… we’re getting ready for the inevitable and we want a common platform. Every major gun manufacturer has an AR on catalog… HK, Beretta, steyr, Sako, etc Even a country in war like UKR is building their own AR. More and more countries are converting to the AR in EU I believe you may be correct. That and parts are everywhere. Look at a majority who post here. Barrels,stocks,receivers,lpks,ammo,ammo and more ammo. Every optic imaginable. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 11:27:47 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dissident: Doesn't change anything for me, I still wouldn't kick a X95 SBR out of bed for eating crackers. +1 |
|
|
|
NV, USA
|
Posted: 3/19/2024 11:31:23 PM EDT
[#35]
IDF had never completely switched to the bullpup. It's up to the individual battalion to pick what small arms they use. Some units stay with the M16 and just updated to M4s.
Reservists use whatever hand me down. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 12:29:35 AM EDT
[#36]
So are any of these IWI produced M4 variants going to see US export sales? Would like to see that. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 12:31:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: _DR]
[#37]
I wonder what a direct impingement bullpup would be like. Has anyone ever tried such a thing?
Lightweight would be good. |
|
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 12:40:12 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TxRabbitBane: How do you say “bullpups suck” in Hebrew? שוורים מוצצים |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 12:51:32 AM EDT
[#39]
The God of Israel hates Tavor.
|
|
|
|
NV, USA
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 1:07:51 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jkees: Good. God hates bullpups. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 1:42:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By homeyclaus: Why you in the bullpup forum then Shit I just saw this thread through active topics and thought it was GD... My bad
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 2:03:49 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jkees: Shit I just saw this thread through active topics and thought it was GD... My bad Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jkees: Originally Posted By homeyclaus: Why you in the bullpup forum then Shit I just saw this thread through active topics and thought it was GD... My bad Forgiven - I've done it. Did it once in the Religion forum just like that - even talking shit to an audience on a topic in their house, that I shouldn't have been talking shit about. I kinda tucked tail on that with a sheepish "my bad".
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 2:07:42 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer: Forgiven - I've done it. Did it once in the Religion forum just like that - even talking shit to an audience on a topic in their house, that I shouldn't have been talking shit about. I kinda tucked tail on that with a sheepish "my bad". Fixed my op, hope im forgiven by all. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 2:23:02 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jkees: Fixed my op, hope im forgiven by all. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jkees: Originally Posted By lazyengineer: Forgiven - I've done it. Did it once in the Religion forum just like that - even talking shit to an audience on a topic in their house, that I shouldn't have been talking shit about. I kinda tucked tail on that with a sheepish "my bad". Fixed my op, hope im forgiven by all. Ha! You didn't have to do that. This is the gun forum section here baby! - bring it on! |
|
|
|
NC, USA
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 6:26:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: SpyHawk]
[#45]
I'd never heard of this thing before. One of the contenders that was mentioned in the article.
http://www.emtan.co.il/products/military-law-enforcement/mz-4p/mz-4-piston-commando-11-5-barrel-detail.html?darkschemeovr=1 |
|
|
NC, USA
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 6:40:34 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: I wonder what a direct impingement bullpup would be like. Has anyone ever tried such a thing? Lightweight would be good. Senex Arms is trying to bring one to market. |
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 7:32:48 AM EDT
[#47]
ARs are cheaper than Tavors...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 8:15:14 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By _DR: Having owned and fired both I can see why. While the Tavor is a very interesting weapon, and shorter in length, it in no way has the ergonomic ease of use that the AR15/M16/M4 has. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 10:31:44 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Millennial: ARs are cheaper than Tavors... and there it is. If you're running procurment to outfit an Army - there it is. |
|
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 3/20/2024 11:03:19 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MAKAK47: I’m assuming it will be an ARAD style upper system that is piston driven That or another easily mass produced M4 I don't know if it's a sign of things to come or not, but the Arad made its way to militia units near Gaza post-Oct 7th, looked like they were coming straight from the box. Whether they were warehoused for export of for near-future issue to local regular forces I can't say. Pictures I've seen was an all-black model, just as a note. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
