Issues with older WLRM primers?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Issues with older WLRM primers?

Posted: 8/23/2023 10:30:08 PM EDT

I finally finished building my Zermatt Arms 300 PRC and am thrilled with how it turned out.

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Took it to the range today along with 40 reloads to shoot some feeler rounds.

Shot 4 different loads, two different powders at two different charge weights.

Out of the 40 shots, 4 of them had pierced/leaking primers. So much so, they ruined my bolt (that will cost $125 to replace).

Few questions...

1) anyone else had issues with WLRM primers rupturing like this?

2) is my bolt ruined or would you carry on?

Few notes... I'm definitely switching to CCI250s from here on. None of the charges were max loads, no signs of pressure, and the headspace was checked with no/go gauges. The ammo is 30 thou off the lands as well, so I don't think this is pressure problems.

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Posted: 8/23/2023 10:32:31 PM EDT

[#1]

Just to clarify, I tested:

1) 79.0gr Staball HD, Berger 220gr HT, Lapua Brass
2) same but 80.0gr
3) 76.0gr H1000, all else the same
4) same as 3 but 77.0 gr

All loaded with WLRM primers, loaded to 30 thou off the lands (2.900" OAL using the 8-30 Hornady headspace gauge).

Posted: 8/23/2023 11:01:28 PM EDT

[#2]

Just how much older are these Winchester primers?

Hasn’t the current silver colored primer cup been a thing now for about 15 plus years?

Or do I have that backwards?

Maybe they were silver in the 1990’s and went to the brass color maybe in the early 2000’s .

When I first started reloading in 1994, the Winchester primer packaging was predominantly white with maybe some orange and black….IIRC.

Do you have some other non-Lapua brass you could try?

Or another rifle caliber entirely that could take a WLRM primer?

I have seen much worse breechface erosion in other guns….guns without replaceable bolts.

Posted: 8/23/2023 11:45:47 PM EDT

[#3]

Winchester made many defective WLR primers around 2013. A few WLRM & WLP also. All had a small hole on the edge of the primer cup.

2 years ago i started using a new lot of 2000 WSPM. The firing pin was piercing the primers. Did not pierce with other brands of primer.
Win sent a check for the defects. Did not come close to replacement cost. Was a very long, time consuming process.

Your bolt is ok. Just looks bad. I have 2 old rifles from Remington 9 1/2 primers that were defective. 1970s.

Posted: 8/24/2023 12:05:37 AM EDT

[#4]

yep them were the bad win primers They were fixing or replacing stuff back when it was going on. But who knows now. Email them the pics and the lot #'s. I know there was a post on one of the forums that was keeping track of the bad lot #'s people reported. Do a search you might find it. But I would hold them accountable for the damage. It is a known problem they had.

Posted: 8/24/2023 12:53:04 AM EDT

[#5]

Red lable, blue lable??

Posted: 8/24/2023 1:29:39 AM EDT

[#6]

Dammit.

Yes, especially from the 2013-2014 timeframe.

Winchesters should be the last brand on the shelf and you need to be in a pickle before buying them.

Posted: 8/24/2023 2:08:27 AM EDT

[#7]

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Quoted:
Dammit.

Yes, especially from the 2013-2014 timeframe.

Winchesters should be the last brand on the shelf and you need to be in a pickle before buying them.

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So like a year or two after the Sandy Hook school shooting.

I was really well stocked up with primers before that.

I don’t remember if or when I got back into a primer buying binge.

Wellllll….hey…just did a search in my email for “primers”.

The last time I bought any primers in bulk was 2017.

So I shouldn’t have anything to worry about.

Posted: 8/24/2023 2:17:14 AM EDT

[#8]

Yep.

Around 2014 I etched the breechface of an X Frame with some starting loads of Power Pistol lit by WLRMs.

Awful primers and I haven’t bought Winchester anything since and I never will.

Posted: 8/24/2023 7:09:46 AM EDT

[#9]

Well damn, sounds like that's definitely the issue.

I'm not sure the exact time frame, but I would guess it was around 2012-2013 like everyone is suggesting.

Ill see if I can find a contact from Win and email them.

What a crap show.

No worse way to start off the day than throwing away 1300 LRM primers... Since those are so easy to find right now.

Posted: 8/24/2023 8:10:01 AM EDT

[#10]

Shout out to Ray at Zermatt Arms. I explained the situation and just wanted to double check that the bolt is safe to fire, but he offered to replace the bolt free of charge.

I can't speak highly enough of Zermatt. Ray helped me figure out which barrel manufacturer was best for me and has given me advice along the way (this was my first precision rifle build). Now he's replacing the bolt because of an issue that was not their fault.

Absolutely best customer service in the industry.

Posted: 8/24/2023 1:29:21 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:
Shout out to Ray at Zermatt Arms. I explained the situation and just wanted to double check that the bolt is safe to fire, but he offered to replace the bolt free of charge.

I can't speak highly enough of Zermatt. Ray helped me figure out which barrel manufacturer was best for me and has given me advice along the way (this was my first precision rifle build). Now he's replacing the bolt because of an issue that was not their fault.

Absolutely best customer service in the industry.

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Wow... very cool

Posted: 8/24/2023 4:59:59 PM EDT

[#12]

I found my photo of WLR defects. 2013 & a few lot numbers. Collected from the internet. Mostly each photo is from a different person.

Posted: 8/24/2023 8:08:15 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
I found my photo of WLR defects. 2013 & a few lot numbers.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/winchester-2013-large-rifle-primer-defect-history.4807/full

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Thanks @243winxb for sharing that. Looks like that is most definitely the issue I have.

Did you contact Winchester? I was going to just trash them, but I'm not going to lie it kinda pisses me off they didn't do a massive recall on them. There no telling how many bolts they destroyed.

I'm fortunate Ray has agreed to take care of me, but I would love it if Win would replace their clearly faulty primers with new ones that won't destroy my rifle.

Posted: 8/24/2023 9:04:52 PM EDT

[#14]

I did not use WLR, at the time. My WSPM issue , about 2 years ago, didnt go well. Olin/Winchester sent a check, instead of primer replacement, as they said they would, at first.

Their check did not cover the full cost of new primers or hasmat & shipping & 6% sales tax, that i already paid on the defective primers.

Back in 2013 service was better. Most got the bolt repaired & shipped new primers. I dont see it happening today? Good luck.

Keep in mind, loose primer pockets will cause the same problem as a defective primer. Loose pockets will mark the side of the prime, from the bottom of the primer, upward.

Posted: 8/24/2023 9:23:22 PM EDT

[#15]

Load data at Hodgdon with 230 berger would seem your load may be over pressure? Plus you using different brass that may have less case volume?
Maximum pressure is 65,000 PSI . Brass pockets dont hold up well at this pressure or above.

Yes i know your using different 220 gr.

Posted: 8/24/2023 10:36:53 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
Load data at Hodgdon with 230 berger would seem your load may be over pressure? Plus you using different brass that may have less case volume?
Maximum pressure is 65,000 PSI . Brass pockets dont hold up well at this pressure or above.

Yes i know your using different 220 gr.

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This brass is brand new Lapua brass. Pockets are fine.

I don't think it's an over pressure issue, there are absolutely no signs of over pressure and the primers have a literal hole in them!

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Posted: 8/24/2023 10:51:51 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:

This brass is brand new Lapua brass. Pockets are fine.

I don't think it's an over pressure issue, there are absolutely no signs of over pressure and the primers have a literal hole in them!

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/322543/1000016562_jpg-2931091.JPG

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I'd contact and get them to replace the primers at the least.

Posted: 8/24/2023 11:00:53 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:

I'd contact and get them to replace the primers at the least.

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I just sent them an email.

I have three different lots and this batch of ammo was made with two of the lots (I happened to be between sleeves so I don't know which lot may have been the problem lot).

I contacted them to see if they can tell me which lots are safe and to potentially exchange the lots that are not safe.

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I probably didn't pay $40 for all these primers, but I'm looking at at least $150 in today's price to replace them.

Posted: 8/24/2023 11:20:54 PM EDT

[#19]

High pressure would have heavy bolt lift & the case head may show brass flow into the ejector cut out in the bolt face.

In my load book, every component gets a lot number, if it doesnt have one already. When accuracy changes, or something is not right, i can see what component is different.

I am betting on bad primer. Hope Win treats you better then me. Good luck. Keep us posted.

Posted: 8/25/2023 10:21:44 PM EDT

[#20]

I had about 3500 win LR primers when it happened to me. It happened the day I was sighting in some collectible rifles. Pitted each bolt before I seen what was happening. It was easy to tell which primers were bad. The brass colored cups were tarnished and almost brown tint. Other much older Winchester primers I had were not tarnished like that. I had a couple hundred rounds loaded with them so I used a sacrificial bolt to shoot the rest of the loaded rounds with bad primers.

Winchester sent me instructions to send back all the lots I had. They never admitted there was a problem and said they did not find anything wrong with the primers I sent back to them. In return they sent me a case of 5000 new primers. I suspect they know there was a problem and which lots it was.

Posted: 8/31/2023 10:30:39 PM EDT

[#21]

Whoaaaa! Now that is weird.

Not really “pierced” primers, as the firing pin isn’t punching thru, it is just failing at the corner.

Guessing it is related to:
1-Worn primer making equipment (punch?)
2-Improperly heat treated/annealed brass used to make the primer
3- Thin brass used to make the primer.

Probably both #1 and either #2 or #3, the worn tool had a high spot that makes a thin area on the corner, the primer wall is thinner or not the right hardness, and the thinnest spot lets go.

Very weird, never seen a primer fail like that, but also don’t have that much experience with large rifle primer reloading.

Might be useable in gallery power loads to burn them up, but the fact that they are rupturing on the corner and not piercing at the firing pin says a lot of WTF is in play…

OP- if you have the ability, can you pull some anvils from live ones, maybe wash out the priming compound and inspect the inside corner of the primer cups? Bet there is going to be a divot someplace making a thin spot.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Issues with older WLRM primers?

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