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Posted: 2/15/2020 6:31:37 PM EDT
[#1]
Sounds like fuddlore to me.
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Posted: 2/15/2020 6:51:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Maybe slightly tangentially - what’s burn-in for and what does it consist of + accomplish? I think most of the sheets I’ve had said 18-19hrs.
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Posted: 2/15/2020 7:09:10 PM EDT
[#3]
First I have heard of this, but then again, I have heard some pretty wild claims against filmless alas I love mine. Honestly there are members on here, myself included with this much time behind filmless with no degradation that I can tell, and I have perfect vision fwiw.
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Posted: 2/15/2020 7:19:27 PM EDT
[#4]
Does the quality drop? I would say no, at least certainly not 20% in 500 hours. Most tubes are “burned in” for a few days during manufacturing to ensure there are no defects that slip past QC. The overall lifespan of the tube could potentially be decreased though.
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Posted: 2/15/2020 7:59:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Fake news.
Sounds like you need a new dealer. 
What dealer told you that? |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 8:42:46 PM EDT
[#6]
After 600 hours it’ll look like 5% window tint.
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Posted: 2/15/2020 9:35:00 PM EDT
[#7]
I have heard something similar to this from guys on these forums and in other groups, never really seen a source or a confirmation though.
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Posted: 2/15/2020 9:45:54 PM EDT
[#8]
I have the dataset from hamamatsu on this, showing the burn in drop etc but I don't think it's as much as 20%. Filmless has a lower PC voltage, significantly lower in the L3 design that lends itself to not damaging in high light or as much over time which is why they can meet contract specs w them. However, since it is GaAs it will degrade faster than Gen 2 in bright lights.
Eta: filmless for science or hobbies, 4G for legit shit would be how I'd go. Nothing can beat the ruggedness and superior chemistry of 4G. |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 9:51:34 PM EDT
[#9]
I've heard a small amount of drop but not 20% that quick.
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Posted: 2/15/2020 9:56:08 PM EDT
[#10]
No. In the first 500 hours, there might even be a slight increase.
Gen3 photocathodes tend to improve slightly for a little while after manufacture, then tend to decay non-linearly before falling off the perch very quickly at the end of their lifespan. Filmed/Unfilmed doesn't make a significant difference to the outcome, from what I read. In fact, the first Gen3 photocathodes, which were filmless DC and tended to only last around 100 hours, held up pretty well until the end of life. David. |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 10:14:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. In the first 500 hours, there might even be a slight increase. Gen3 photocathodes tend to improve slightly for a little while after manufacture, then tend to decay non-linearly before falling off the perch very quickly at the end of their lifespan. Filmed/Unfilmed doesn't make a significant difference to the outcome, from what I read. In fact, the first Gen3 photocathodes, which were filmless DC and tended to only last around 100 hours, held up pretty well until the end of life. David. |
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Posted: 2/15/2020 11:50:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe slightly tangentially - what’s burn-in for and what does it consist of + accomplish? I think most of the sheets I’ve had said 18-19hrs. |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 9:28:09 AM EDT
[#13]
Many years ago there was the move to "FLAG" which was first thought of as 4G. You can still see some manufacturers selling things they call "4G FLAG" which I think stood for FilmLess AutoGated or something like that (don't quote me).
Military tested these and found they degraded very quickly and very badly. So they ditched it, ditched 4G concept, and went back to Gen 3 filmed tubes. That was many years ago. Today's modern unfilmed tubes are not the same. If you google around you should be able to find the details of what I've described above. I SUSPECT that is what your dealer was talking about. |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 11:14:46 AM EDT
[#14]
I went through this exercise before I decided to buy filmless WP duals. I don’t know 100% if this is true or not but I sided with it not being true or at least the degradation not being a issue and here’s why:
#1. Harris/Exelis/ITT (all of their iterations) would have done a white paper showing statistics & data like they did against gen 2. If they’ve done one I haven’t seen it. #2. The people who told me that modern L3 filmless degrades faster sell thin filmed. #3. Filmless has been out in the civilian world for years now. If this was the case, I’d have to think people would be talking about it. The degradation thing is what kept me out of filmless for years and after buying filmless (higher spec) I was pissed that I didn’t do it sooner. |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 11:23:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
A reputable dealer that "your filmless tube loses 20% performance after 500 hours due to having no film. That's why the OMNIBUS contracts call for filmed products." I have been considering another WP tube and didn't know if I should go filmless or if the savings of thin filmed and high spec is just as good. I did some googling and had no luck finding info on that so I figured I'd check here. 
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Posted: 2/16/2020 11:38:15 AM EDT
[#16]
what dealer?
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Posted: 2/16/2020 12:13:20 PM EDT
[#17]
I have heard the same claims but have yet to see anything backing it up. My guess is it’s a rumor left over from the early days of filmless. I also fell victim to the rumors bashing the tech. But after buying filmless, I don’t want to use anything else
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Posted: 2/16/2020 12:37:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. In the first 500 hours, there might even be a slight increase. Gen3 photocathodes tend to improve slightly for a little while after manufacture, then tend to decay non-linearly before falling off the perch very quickly at the end of their lifespan. Filmed/Unfilmed doesn't make a significant difference to the outcome, from what I read. In fact, the first Gen3 photocathodes, which were filmless DC and tended to only last around 100 hours, held up pretty well until the end of life. David. |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 1:09:03 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what dealer? |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 2:10:52 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's been asked twice now. My guess we won't be given that information. More to come....
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Posted: 2/16/2020 5:45:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's been asked twice now. My guess we won't be given that information. More to come.... |
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Posted: 2/16/2020 10:48:38 PM EDT
[#22]
So just for more context - I asked about the high spec (one of which FOM of 3000) filmed WP tubes and if a high spec filmed tube is worth a “step backwards” in technology when compared to a 2000ish FOM filmless tube. Here’s the response I got -
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Posted: 2/16/2020 11:48:18 PM EDT
[#23]
As others have posted, I recall reading about original "gen 4" filmless stuff having an inordinately short lifespan. That was probably fifteen years ago, though. I've never, ever, been disappointed w/ my nice thin-filmed tubes but that L3 WP FLAG 2600+ FOM super tube that has been hanging out on my head for the last three years is pretty spectacular too
 The one and only PVS-14/tube combo that I regret selling was a Pinnacle w/ honestly only good-ish specs... but holy shit that thing had a spectacular image. It sold in about two hours and I knew I would miss it Tagged for interest if any L3/Harris/ITT/Litton/NG industry types will comment on filmless tube longevity.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:42:32 AM EDT
[#24]
3000 FOM filmed unit?
Is that a typo? Or is he just full of sh*t? 3000 FOM isn’t even the norm for the best filmless tubes being delivered to the guys on the other side of the fence on McKeller’s Road... 3000 FOM tubes are at the bleeding edge of what the industry is capable of producing at its absolute top tier. I’m not even sure I’ve ever even heard of a filmed Omni tube exceeding 2000 FOM, much less 3000. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 8:36:57 AM EDT
[#25]
I personally have no doubts about that tube
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Posted: 2/17/2020 8:59:12 AM EDT
[#26]
That time you posted something ITAR on social media and didn’t even know, kinda of like you don’t even know what you’re talking about regarding tube life.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 9:18:38 AM EDT
[#27]
Neat.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 9:33:19 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
3000 FOM filmed unit? Is that a typo? Or is he just full of sh*t? 3000 FOM isn’t even the norm for the best filmless tubes being delivered to the guys on the other side of the fence on McKeller’s Road... 3000 FOM tubes are at the bleeding edge of what the industry is capable of producing at its absolute top tier. I’m not even sure I’ve ever even heard of a filmed Omni tube exceeding 2000 FOM, much less 3000. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 9:38:37 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What causes them to eventually fail? They can die from other causes too. PSU failure, Exceeding shock limits, Insulation breakdown, Fire, Mechanical damage, Photocathode burn, Image burn-in (fixed pattern noise) and other causes, but if taken care of, generally many Gen3 will eventually die of ion poisoning. That's what the film and/or autogating and/or better degassing is intended to slow down... Without some kind of protection, GaAs doesn't last long at all. Gen2 tends to be more linear, but over 10000 hours, they lose about half, and then over another 10000 hours, another half, etc. So you can probably get more than 20,000 hours from a good Gen2. Gen3 tends to hold on a little longer - So will decay slower than Gen2, though not enough to sway a decision about which you should get, and then suddenly dies at the end of life. It will decay to worthless in a very short period of time. Maybe less than 100 hours. But you should get your original 10,000 hours out of it. The term for a tube that decays 20% in the first 500 hours? "Faulty"...Or maybe just sub-standard. Not sure what might lead to that, unless you're using on full moon nights all the time with a DC PSU. That would probably do it, but it will hurt filmed and filmless equally. Well, Filmless does tend to have good autogating. I've never heard anyone talk about Filmless decaying 20% in 500 hours though... Just what is the claimed mechanism? As others mentioned, I can't see a tube that does that giving 10,000 hours. David. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 9:39:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Oh yeah, there are a lot of Omnibus contracts for filmless... They are just a bit more discreet about it than with filmed though... Probably because of the application.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 11:45:56 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s not a typo, I just bought two 3000 fom thin filmed Elbit tubes. I know of my two, this tube and one other that are 3000 fom or close made in the last few months. Regardless, the information this vendor is giving about tube life is complete BS and is probably just to try to move a surplus of Elbit tubes he has. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 11:49:15 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That time you posted something ITAR on social media and didn’t even know, kinda of like you don’t even know what you’re talking about regarding tube life. Also - once I hear back from you guys I’ll probably be placing an order. Just waiting for an email or IM back. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 11:50:15 AM EDT
[#33]
Its the mins that are ITAR, and not all are blurred out.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:24:38 PM EDT
[#34]
From Mark Horning The brain at L3Harris. Straight from the horses mouth. I hope this quashes all the rumors you guys have been hearing about unfilmed Tech. It is amazing tech and and continues to improve as the years go on.
Sam, The engineers we sent to SHOT were hearing similar BS. 1) As you know, we are required to run sample units on lifetime reliability. The reliability requirement is 1500 hours on “accelerated reliability”. The accelerated profile is supposed to represent 10x acceleration over typical real-world use. This is possibly one source of mis-information. Each hour on the test box is supposed to be equivalent to ~10 hours of “real world” use. The profile is in the various MIL-PRFs. Note: the US Army designed the test, not the manufacturers. I pulled the last three months of complete data for the unfilmed product. On average, gain INCREASED 18% at 1500 hours, and SNR went down 1.2%. That’s only 15 tubes, because we only run 5 a month, and even the accelerated test takes around 3 months to complete. Next time you or anyone else from TNVC is in the factory, I will be happy to show you the equipment, as well as share some of the performance graphs. Now, the original unfilmed tubes from the late 90s early 2000s had serious lifetime issues. I remember ITT built some that lasted around 200 hours. The early Litton/L-3 ones were better, but honestly not by much. I’m told we got 500 hours, but the yield to get there was terrible. That was 15-20 years ago though. The tech is completely different now, and has been for many years. Also, the US Air Force would not have given us a $93 million contract for high-FOM unfilmed tubes if they had lifetime reliability problems. Contracts are public record, but just in case you need a link here is a news article: tube info Mark E. Horning Sr. Engineer – Integrated Vision Solutions Electron Tube Operations COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS / L3HARRIS TECHNOLOGIES 1215 S. 52nd St / Tempe, AZ 85281/ USA |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:30:19 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From Mark Horning The brain at L3Harris. Straight from the horses mouth. I hope this quashes all the rumors you guys have been hearing about unfilmed Tech. It is amazing tech and and continues to improve as the years go on. Sam, The engineers we sent to SHOT were hearing similar BS. 1) As you know, we are required to run sample units on lifetime reliability. The reliability requirement is 1500 hours on “accelerated reliability”. The accelerated profile is supposed to represent 10x acceleration over typical real-world use. This is possibly one source of mis-information. Each hour on the test box is supposed to be equivalent to ~10 hours of “real world” use. The profile is in the various MIL-PRFs. Note: the US Army designed the test, not the manufacturers. I pulled the last three months of complete data for the unfilmed product. On average, gain INCREASED 18% at 1500 hours, and SNR went down 1.2%. That’s only 15 tubes, because we only run 5 a month, and even the accelerated test takes around 3 months to complete. Next time you or anyone else from TNVC is in the factory, I will be happy to show you the equipment, as well as share some of the performance graphs. Now, the original unfilmed tubes from the late 90s early 2000s had serious lifetime issues. I remember ITT built some that lasted around 200 hours. The early Litton/L-3 ones were better, but honestly not by much. I’m told we got 500 hours, but the yield to get there was terrible. That was 15-20 years ago though. The tech is completely different now, and has been for many years. Also, the US Air Force would not have given us a $93 million contract for high-FOM unfilmed tubes if they had lifetime reliability problems. Contracts are public record, but just in case you need a link here is a news article: tube info Mark E. Horning Sr. Engineer – Integrated Vision Solutions Electron Tube Operations COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS / L3HARRIS TECHNOLOGIES 1215 S. 52nd St / Tempe, AZ 85281/ USA |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:47:56 PM EDT
[#36]
That squashes the fake news
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:55:04 PM EDT
[#37]
Rumors from the early days still persists. With filmless being more mainstream, it’ll be harder and harder for them to pass the sniff test.
@TNVC_Sam Any idea what L3’s accelerated test consists of? |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:58:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From Mark Horning The brain at L3Harris. Straight from the horses mouth. I hope this quashes all the rumors you guys have been hearing about unfilmed Tech. It is amazing tech and and continues to improve as the years go on. Sam, The engineers we sent to SHOT were hearing similar BS. 1) As you know, we are required to run sample units on lifetime reliability. The reliability requirement is 1500 hours on “accelerated reliability”. The accelerated profile is supposed to represent 10x acceleration over typical real-world use. This is possibly one source of mis-information. Each hour on the test box is supposed to be equivalent to ~10 hours of “real world” use. The profile is in the various MIL-PRFs. Note: the US Army designed the test, not the manufacturers. I pulled the last three months of complete data for the unfilmed product. On average, gain INCREASED 18% at 1500 hours, and SNR went down 1.2%. That’s only 15 tubes, because we only run 5 a month, and even the accelerated test takes around 3 months to complete. Next time you or anyone else from TNVC is in the factory, I will be happy to show you the equipment, as well as share some of the performance graphs. Now, the original unfilmed tubes from the late 90s early 2000s had serious lifetime issues. I remember ITT built some that lasted around 200 hours. The early Litton/L-3 ones were better, but honestly not by much. I’m told we got 500 hours, but the yield to get there was terrible. That was 15-20 years ago though. The tech is completely different now, and has been for many years. Also, the US Air Force would not have given us a $93 million contract for high-FOM unfilmed tubes if they had lifetime reliability problems. Contracts are public record, but just in case you need a link here is a news article: tube info Mark E. Horning Sr. Engineer – Integrated Vision Solutions Electron Tube Operations COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS / L3HARRIS TECHNOLOGIES 1215 S. 52nd St / Tempe, AZ 85281/ USA Awesome info. This should be a sticky IMO. This comes up all of the time, or at least I get asked often about it. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:14:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Is an official statement from L3 on the topic too much to ask?
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:19:44 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is an official statement from L3 on the topic too much to ask? That being said, L3/Eotech hasn't exactly been the most circumspect with info in the past- the holographic sights debacle a few years back. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:20:27 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is an official statement from L3 on the topic too much to ask? ~Augee |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:28:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, the US Air Force would not have given us a $93 million contract for high-FOM unfilmed tubes if they had lifetime reliability problems. Contracts are public record, but just in case you need a link here is a news article: tube info 
EDIT: "The contract also accommodate requests for the high-field-of-merit tubes from other U.S. Department of Defense customers." oh yeah... so nevermind. EDIT2: Searching here is fun when you put in 5855 for PSC. $3-4M to Optics1 for SWIR COSIs each of the last 2 years - didn't realize there were that many out there. Definitely some familiar faces on the list besides the big guys - good to see others winning contracts too. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:28:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
***Caveat- I sell some units with L3 tubes also so chill*** That being said, L3/Eotech hasn't exactly been the most circumspect with info in the past- the holographic sights debacle a few years back. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is an official statement from L3 on the topic too much to ask? That being said, L3/Eotech hasn't exactly been the most circumspect with info in the past- the holographic sights debacle a few years back. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:35:50 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which has NOTHING to do with tubes, NOTHING. We get what this is all about. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:39:09 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ahhh sweetie why did I know YOU of all people would freak out! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Which has NOTHING to do with tubes, NOTHING. We get what this is all about. Have a nice day, and btw I'm happily married, you may want to walk that to San Fran.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:44:19 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol on your freakout. You don't have a clue Robert. BS claim bringing up Holo sights to thow a dagger. Have a nice day, and btw I'm happily married, you may want to walk that to San Fran. The "sweetie" comment was relating to your constant actions of acting like a flipping 3 year old..... As in the little kid you see in walmart throwing yet another tantrum and the patient mother going "ok sweetie we will get you a cookie". Good time to end it before it goes too far and you lose your option of acting like a martyr after you attack someone- not that anyone believes that any more. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:46:20 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the above posted by Sam from L3 not sufficient as an "official statement?" ~Augee @Lowdown3 I know, I was being sarcastic. I know they will never give us lowly peeons a statement |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:51:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol on your freakout. You don't have a clue Robert. BS bringing up Holo sights just to thow a dagger. Have a nice day, and btw I'm happily married, you may want to walk that to San Fran. 
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:00:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So uhhh if all that’s over can your sales guys email me back from last week This is the watering hole on the African savannah, where all the predators and prey come for a drink. Some animals prey on peoples ignorance and hide behind the technical nature of I2 tech and possess just a little bit of knowledge to sound very informed to the layman in order to make a sale, even at the expense of putting out downright false info. Thats not what TNVC is about, we aren't the cheapest game in town often times but we arent going to lie to people to nab a sale. We are also end users just like our customers. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:00:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, "MY" freakout. The "sweetie" comment was relating to your constant actions of acting like a flipping 3 year old..... As in the little kid you see in walmart throwing yet another tantrum and the patient mother going "ok sweetie we will get you a cookie". Good time to end it before it goes too far and you lose your option of acting like a martyr after you attack someone- not that anyone believes that any more. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Lol on your freakout. You don't have a clue Robert. BS claim bringing up Holo sights to thow a dagger. Have a nice day, and btw I'm happily married, you may want to walk that to San Fran. The "sweetie" comment was relating to your constant actions of acting like a flipping 3 year old..... As in the little kid you see in walmart throwing yet another tantrum and the patient mother going "ok sweetie we will get you a cookie". Good time to end it before it goes too far and you lose your option of acting like a martyr after you attack someone- not that anyone believes that any more. |
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