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Posted: 2/13/2023 8:31:59 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: APCs are really well made guns. They oddly look a little utilitarian, but the fit and finish is unreal on them. I had the APC308 and it was a much, much nicer gun than the SCARs I've owned. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: At this point I’d consider an APC over the Carmel and it pains me so much to say that. APCs are really well made guns. They oddly look a little utilitarian, but the fit and finish is unreal on them. I had the APC308 and it was a much, much nicer gun than the SCARs I've owned. |
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Posted: 3/5/2023 4:34:59 AM EDT
[#2]
Maybe this was already talked about....
The disappointment surrounding the change to allow for AR grips and FCGs is a little odd. People bitch about the fact that the Bren doesn't allow for these things. Haga defense has made a mint selling parts to allow for the Bren to allow for this. If you want to improve your SCAR or Bren trigger, it can get expensive and your options are incredibly limited. |
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Posted: 3/5/2023 6:49:15 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe this was already talked about.... The disappointment surrounding the change to allow for AR grips and FCGs is a little odd. People bitch about the fact that the Bren doesn't allow for these things. Haga defense has made a mint selling parts to allow for the Bren to allow for this. If you want to improve your SCAR or Bren trigger, it can get expensive and your options are incredibly limited. With every not-an-AR rifle there seems to be a crowd that wants the authentic article, and another crowd that wants it to be an AR and inevitably complains when it fails to be as inexpensive as an AR with as big an aftermarket. IMHO it makes more sense to cater to the first group, because the second will never be happy anyway, despite also not complaining about the proprietary parts in certain high end AR's.  Remember the ACR? "What benefit are caliber conversions? For the same price I can buy an AR upper and it maintains a zeroed optic" Or any other rifle "the manual of arms is different, I can't seriously train to this weapon." Which seems to be why the MCX has gained acceptance, because it's a piston AR. |
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Posted: 3/5/2023 8:04:05 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With every not-an-AR rifle there seems to be a crowd that wants the authentic article, and another crowd that wants it to be an AR and inevitably complains when it fails to be as inexpensive as an AR with as big an aftermarket. IMHO it makes more sense to cater to the first group, because the second will never be happy anyway, despite also not complaining about the proprietary parts in certain high end AR's. Remember the ACR? "What benefit are caliber conversions? For the same price I can buy an AR upper and it maintains a zeroed optic" Or any other rifle "the manual of arms is different, I can't seriously train to this weapon." Which seems to be why the MCX has gained acceptance, because it's a piston AR. Fair assessment. It just seems to me that most people (including myself) want "something different" without the downsides. Anyone who wants a rifle like the Bren, SCAR, etc has to embrace that it's NOT an AR15 - and the good and the bad that comes with it. And yes that's probably why the MCX is a hit...it's different enough to scratch the itch while still offering most of the benefits of owning an AR15 |
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Posted: 3/5/2023 4:44:48 PM EDT
[#5]
I like that it uses AR triggers, and can even accept that it takes AR grips, but the handguard is a bridge too far. It's the single most distinctive part of the rifle.
There's a balance to be had, but IWI seems to be solely going after the "I want an AR15 bit I don't want an AR15" crowd. |
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Posted: 3/6/2023 3:00:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe this was already talked about.... The disappointment surrounding the change to allow for AR grips and FCGs is a little odd. People bitch about the fact that the Bren doesn't allow for these things. Haga defense has made a mint selling parts to allow for the Bren to allow for this. If you want to improve your SCAR or Bren trigger, it can get expensive and your options are incredibly limited. I think catering to the first group makes the most sense. The people that want it to be an AR-15 will never be content since the AR-15 is an AR15. Anytime any of the AR-18 derivatives come up on a forum that leans more to the casual side (IE: Reddit’s gundeals sub) there will be users commenting things along the lines of “what does this do that an AR won’t?” The answer is almost always nothing. Sure it may feature a quick detach barrel, it may offer swappable ejection, or some other minor niche feature, but overall it’s just a semi-auto rifle chambered in 5.56 that costs 3 times what an AR-15 does. That’s what kills me when these companies release what could otherwise be an authentic military firearm for the civilian market, they bastardize it and by doing so end up alienating both the people that are into the gun for it’s unique attributes and the people that want a ‘non’ AR-15. |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 8:22:05 AM EDT
[#7]
There is more aftermarket support for the AR platform than for any other weapon, so it makes 100% sense to reasonably accommodate that.
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Posted: 3/7/2023 11:03:35 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think catering to the first group makes the most sense. The people that want it to be an AR-15 will never be content since the AR-15 is an AR15. Anytime any of the AR-18 derivatives come up on a forum that leans more to the casual side (IE: Reddit's gundeals sub) there will be users commenting things along the lines of "what does this do that an AR won't?" The answer is almost always nothing. Sure it may feature a quick detach barrel, it may offer swappable ejection, or some other minor niche feature, but overall it's just a semi-auto rifle chambered in 5.56 that costs 3 times what an AR-15 does. That's what kills me when these companies release what could otherwise be an authentic military firearm for the civilian market, they bastardize it and by doing so end up alienating both the people that are into the gun for it's unique attributes and the people that want a 'non' AR-15. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Maybe this was already talked about.... The disappointment surrounding the change to allow for AR grips and FCGs is a little odd. People bitch about the fact that the Bren doesn't allow for these things. Haga defense has made a mint selling parts to allow for the Bren to allow for this. If you want to improve your SCAR or Bren trigger, it can get expensive and your options are incredibly limited. I think catering to the first group makes the most sense. The people that want it to be an AR-15 will never be content since the AR-15 is an AR15. Anytime any of the AR-18 derivatives come up on a forum that leans more to the casual side (IE: Reddit's gundeals sub) there will be users commenting things along the lines of "what does this do that an AR won't?" The answer is almost always nothing. Sure it may feature a quick detach barrel, it may offer swappable ejection, or some other minor niche feature, but overall it's just a semi-auto rifle chambered in 5.56 that costs 3 times what an AR-15 does. That's what kills me when these companies release what could otherwise be an authentic military firearm for the civilian market, they bastardize it and by doing so end up alienating both the people that are into the gun for it's unique attributes and the people that want a 'non' AR-15. Meh. It's not a fashion show. I just want a folding stock rifle that doesn't need the design compromises that the AR-15 needs to have a folding stock. I love the Mlok handguard and I will buy one of these as long as the weight is in the 7 lb range. If you want to larp you can do that with airsoft. |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 2:41:58 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh. It's not a fashion show. I just want a folding stock rifle that doesn't need the design compromises that the AR-15 needs to have a folding stock. I love the Mlok handguard and I will buy one of these as long as the weight is in the 7 lb range. If you want to larp you can do that with airsoft. It's 8.2#, & that HG is too much bulk for what is essentially a PDW caliber rifle. Or did you not read the specs IWI posted on their very own site? |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 3:52:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh. It's not a fashion show. I just want a folding stock rifle that doesn't need the design compromises that the AR-15 needs to have a folding stock. I love the Mlok handguard and I will buy one of these as long as the weight is in the 7 lb range. If you want to larp you can do that with airsoft. You have like 10 other options for a folding stock AR. They are all lighter, and make better use of AR parts |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 5:02:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh. It's not a fashion show. I just want a folding stock rifle that doesn't need the design compromises that the AR-15 needs to have a folding stock. I love the Mlok handguard and I will buy one of these as long as the weight is in the 7 lb range. If you want to larp you can do that with airsoft. Then buy a BRN-180? I don’t even LARP, I am a military small arms collector first and foremost, so when a potential addition to the collection is amalgamated to fit basic AR-15 components, you bet I get a tad salty. |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 6:00:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have like 10 other options for a folding stock AR. They are all lighter, and make better use of AR parts Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Meh. It's not a fashion show. I just want a folding stock rifle that doesn't need the design compromises that the AR-15 needs to have a folding stock. I love the Mlok handguard and I will buy one of these as long as the weight is in the 7 lb range. If you want to larp you can do that with airsoft. You have like 10 other options for a folding stock AR. They are all lighter, and make better use of AR parts Yeah but they all have problems and things I don't like. Maybe this one is better? I don't believe it actually weighs 8 lbs anyway. I bet that is a screwup. |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 6:01:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then buy a BRN-180? I don't even LARP, I am a military small arms collector first and foremost, so when a potential addition to the collection is amalgamated to fit basic AR-15 components, you bet I get a tad salty. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Meh. It's not a fashion show. I just want a folding stock rifle that doesn't need the design compromises that the AR-15 needs to have a folding stock. I love the Mlok handguard and I will buy one of these as long as the weight is in the 7 lb range. If you want to larp you can do that with airsoft. Then buy a BRN-180? I don't even LARP, I am a military small arms collector first and foremost, so when a potential addition to the collection is amalgamated to fit basic AR-15 components, you bet I get a tad salty. Meh. BRN-180 is too much of a soup sandwich for me. They should have done a clean sheet design instead of trying to sorta be an AR-18 but not really. |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 6:55:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah but they all have problems and things I don't like. Maybe this one is better? I don't believe it actually weighs 8 lbs anyway. I bet that is a screwup. I can easily see 8lbs. That 2x4 of a handguard, thicker barrel. Thats a lot of potential weight |
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Posted: 3/7/2023 9:17:30 PM EDT
[#15]
I am in the market for the Carmel. AR grip and AR trigger comparability is a minimum for me. Happy IWI went that way. I actually shoot my guns and don’t just stash them away in a safe. So having grips and triggers to use that I like and better than what the factory can offer me is common sense.
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Posted: 3/7/2023 10:55:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh. It's not a fashion show. Of course it is. A guy walking into his local gun shop or big box store looking for his first "tactical rifle" who doesn't have any experience with them is going to be drawn to what they find most aesthetically pleasing. No different then if they were shopping for a car or new pair of shoes. Guys who own a dozen ARs and "want something different" aren't going to buy a gun they find ugly just because it's "different". 99% of the time when this segment says they want something "different", different means "looks cool" because let's face it, there's only a limited number of ways that guns like this can actually be "different" from a mechanical point of view. There's a reason the Cerakote website has a million pictures of guns when you're browsing the colors. There's a reason companies like Strike Industries offer everything they make in five colors. Hell, there's a reason there's even a thriving civilian market for anything FDE when 90% of the country doesn't live in a tan landscape. Guns sales became a fashion show a looooong time ago. |
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Posted: 3/8/2023 10:45:55 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am in the market for the Carmel. AR grip and AR trigger comparability is a minimum for me. Happy IWI went that way. I actually shoot my guns and don’t just stash them away in a safe. So having grips and triggers to use that I like and better than what the factory can offer me is common sense. “Actually use my rifles” is a cop out to imply us with legitimate criticism of IWI and their choices here will not use our rifles. People dog on the Gen1 Galil but I’ve put maybe 8k through my Gen 1 556 rifle and 5k through my x39 pistol. |
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Posted: 3/10/2023 3:44:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah but they all have problems and things I don't like. Maybe this one is better? I don't believe it actually weighs 8 lbs anyway. I bet that is a screwup. I'll take that bet. |
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Posted: 3/10/2023 4:14:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'll take that bet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah but they all have problems and things I don't like. Maybe this one is better? I don't believe it actually weighs 8 lbs anyway. I bet that is a screwup. I'll take that bet. |
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Posted: 3/14/2023 11:05:50 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am in the market for the Carmel. AR grip and AR trigger comparability is a minimum for me. Happy IWI went that way. I actually shoot my guns and don’t just stash them away in a safe. So having grips and triggers to use that I like and better than what the factory can offer me is common sense. Then by all means... I hope you enjoy and shoot the shit out of your cARmel-15. |
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Posted: 3/23/2023 9:03:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Dudes in here sounding like tavor owners with the round X95 handguards..
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Posted: 3/23/2023 9:09:17 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dudes in here sounding like tavor owners with the round X95 handguards.. lol I remember those days too. I have both platforms and like them as is with my only gripe is my 18" X95 is missing its bayonet lug. A consequence of buying in 2020
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Posted: 3/23/2023 10:08:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: “Actually use my rifles” is a cop out to imply us with legitimate criticism of IWI and their choices here will not use our rifles. People dog on the Gen1 Galil but I’ve put maybe 8k through my Gen 1 556 rifle and 5k through my x39 pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am in the market for the Carmel. AR grip and AR trigger comparability is a minimum for me. Happy IWI went that way. I actually shoot my guns and don’t just stash them away in a safe. So having grips and triggers to use that I like and better than what the factory can offer me is common sense. “Actually use my rifles” is a cop out to imply us with legitimate criticism of IWI and their choices here will not use our rifles. People dog on the Gen1 Galil but I’ve put maybe 8k through my Gen 1 556 rifle and 5k through my x39 pistol. It wasn’t meant as a cop out. Most guys that want the “military correct” version want that so they can stick it in their collection with their x amount of other guns that fit that genre. I’m just saying as a gun owner, I personally like having the ability to get the gun setup how I like it. Nowadays in 2023, ability to use AR grips and triggers is a bare minimum that I would want for a new rifle platform. Personally I don’t mind the MLOK handguard. |
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Posted: 3/24/2023 11:09:00 AM EDT
[#24]
It doesn't have an AR trigger compatibility ... to whoever said it did ...
Not only IWI USA made it looks like absolute crap with the handguard...they also modified the gas system and took away the QD barrel attachment point... So...IWI USA made it more trash...and I am a huge IWI fan...but what they did to the Carmel is just idiotic...now I am pleased that it is US produced...but dang IWI...you screwed this up... |
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Posted: 3/31/2023 11:10:10 AM EDT
[#25]
Adding my discouragement to the collective...
To remove the things that made it unique for the sake of making it more marketable is disappointing to say the least. I'm going to pray the same doesn't happen to the MSBS Grot when it inevitably comes to the US. |
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Posted: 4/24/2023 4:29:01 PM EDT
[#26]
Quick video by Tactical Fitness.
Of interest is he calls it "light" and it seems to shoot very soft.  IWI Carmel: Overview (2023) |
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Posted: 4/24/2023 7:16:28 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesn't have an AR trigger compatibility ... to whoever said it did ... Not only IWI USA made it looks like absolute crap with the handguard...they also modified the gas system and took away the QD barrel attachment point. So...IWI USA made it more trash...and I am a huge IWI fan...but what they did to the Carmel is just idiotic...now I am pleased that it is US produced...but dang IWI...you screwed this up... Would you also complain when it shot 4 MOA? I interviewed IWI in my coverage of NRAAM 2023, if you would like to watch, Jeremy from IWI goes over the carmel with me.  NRAAM day 2 (Ammo-up, Live free armory, IWI US, Holosun) |
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Posted: 4/24/2023 8:08:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do you say that? If people are “eating with their eyes” with how it looks and just want it because they want the IWI Israeli version, I get why you would already write it off. If people are saying the gun is terrible because it has m-lok (like every other gun on the market because it is the defacto mounting system) and that it is heavy and has terrible ethonomics, well, maybe try holding one first. Just my two cents as someone who has actually handled it and found it to balance nicely, have good ergonomics, and have well thought out design. Sven Manticore Arms I got some trigger time with one at the IWI booth and found the rifle to shoot well , handle nicely , and looked pretty decent in person. I was interested in it when it launched , so maybe I was biased , but I don’t think so. After shooting it if the price was right I would look to buy one. |
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Posted: 4/24/2023 8:27:46 PM EDT
[#29]
When will it be available?
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Posted: 4/24/2023 8:28:39 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When will it be available? Q3 this year is what I read somewhere |
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Posted: 4/25/2023 2:50:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Q3 this year is what I read somewhere Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When will it be available? Q3 this year is what I read somewhere Thanks. I’m guessing a street price of $1,500 after initial demand is met. Not bad. Above JAKL pricing but way under Scar, Spear LT, etc. |
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Posted: 4/25/2023 3:49:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would you also complain when it shot 4 MOA? I interviewed IWI in my coverage of NRAAM 2023, if you would like to watch, Jeremy from IWI goes over the carmel with me.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgdi-Hk5BQYIf a modern firearm shot 4 MOA with decent ammo...yeah I would complain...come on man...and you should too... This isn't the original Carmel...what IWI is releasing is a bastardized version of it...period... |
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Posted: 4/29/2023 5:47:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Adjustable cheek piece out of the box with quick-adjustable length of pull without any of the AR charging handle drama - shut up and take my money!
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Posted: 4/29/2023 6:39:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quick video by Tactical Fitness. Of interest is he calls it "light" and it seems to shoot very soft. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJJuOblak488.2# + comp + 5.56 = soft recoil. My ARX weighs 6.8# & shoots very soft. But then, 5.56 is a PDW cal, so no big surprise. |
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Posted: 5/3/2023 3:16:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If a modern firearm shot 4 MOA with decent ammo...yeah I would complain...come on man...and you should too... This isn't the original Carmel...what IWI is releasing is a bastardized version of it...period... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Would you also complain when it shot 4 MOA? I interviewed IWI in my coverage of NRAAM 2023, if you would like to watch, Jeremy from IWI goes over the carmel with me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgdi-Hk5BQYIf a modern firearm shot 4 MOA with decent ammo...yeah I would complain...come on man...and you should too... This isn't the original Carmel...what IWI is releasing is a bastardized version of it...period... |
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Posted: 5/3/2023 4:39:02 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Also these bbl are NOT made by IWI. They wouldn’t say who made them, just that they will eventually be in house made. Interesting. Didn't know IWI wasn't making the barrels. They said they're cold hammer forged and chrome lined so I'd assume either FN or Daniel Defense is making the barrels for them if that's the case. |
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Posted: 5/3/2023 9:33:51 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting. Didn't know IWI wasn't making the barrels. They said they're cold hammer forged and chrome lined so I'd assume either FN or Daniel Defense is making the barrels for them if that's the case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:Also these bbl are NOT made by IWI. They wouldn’t say who made them, just that they will eventually be in house made. Interesting. Didn't know IWI wasn't making the barrels. They said they're cold hammer forged and chrome lined so I'd assume either FN or Daniel Defense is making the barrels for them if that's the case. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:40:39 AM EDT
[#38]
Looks like a cool rifle. I want more info. Namely, I want to see it disassembled. How does one change the flash hider? Can I get spare bolts and other parts for it? Can I get a 14” barrel for a pin and weld (think better balance running suppressed)?
I also want an Arad |
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