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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:15:26 PM EDT
One of my gearhead buddies has been askin' about making bullets so today we tried it out. No real science involved, just sketched out what we think a 9mm should look like and then went to work on the lathe. They look pretty good but testing will show for sure.
Top pic is various iterations. Final version (below) weighs 87 grains and is 360 brass. It's a hollow point boat tail with a drive band (I think that's what it's called?) in the middle of the straight section (does that have a specific name?). Pay no mind to the tit, it was removed before weighing.  Attached File Attached FileCouple questions- Are there any golden ratios with respect to diameter vs nose length or straight section? What about the boat tail length, what should we be striving for there? |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:21:01 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By MethaneMover: One of my gearhead buddies has been askin' about making bullets so today we tried it out. No real science involved, just sketched out what we think a 9mm should look like and then went to work on the lathe. They look pretty good but testing will show for sure. Top pic is various iterations. Final version (below) weighs 87 grains and is 360 brass. It's a hollow point boat tail with a drive band (I think that's what it's called?) in the middle of the straight section (does that have a specific name?). Pay no mind to the tit, it was removed before weighing. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/145430/1000007372_jpg-3194777.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/145430/1000007371_jpg-3194775.JPG Couple questions- Are there any golden ratios with respect to diameter vs nose length or straight section? What about the boat tail length, what should we be striving for there? Boat Tail on a pistol bullet? Boat tails don't do much until they get past 300 yds. So no need for one. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:26:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Ever fired a 9mm FMJ that you liked? Copy the shape. Me, I partial to 124 gr RNFP's. Boat Tail on a pistol bullet? Boat tails don't do much until they get past 300 yds. So no need for one. I'm sure we'll try other nosecone shapes. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:28:07 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MethaneMover: The boat tail was as much for ease of loading as anything else. I'm sure we'll try other nosecone shapes. I use a Lyman M ide for this. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:30:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Those are beautiful.
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:36:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Originally Posted By dryflash3: Flat based bullets load easy if cases are properly belled. I use a Lyman M ide for this.  Originally Posted By carcrazysammy: Those are beautiful. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:49:56 PM EDT
[#6]
Those look very nice, indeed.
I'd be wary of an inconsistent diameter with solid bullets raising pressures when loading them hot. The old H construction bullets had a relief cut in the middle of the bullet like yours does, and the Herter's wasp waist design had what looks like a rolled in dish in the middle of the shank. A long time ago, I bought some 0.300" Carcano bullets to load with lead bullet gas checks. The idea was to load these barely seated for speed in a 26" 30-06. Never got around to it, and now I am packing away my garage again for another move. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 12:15:02 AM EDT
[#7]
Very nice !
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Posted: 4/22/2024 4:02:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Blowout]
[#8]
Nicely done!
I'm not familiar with 360 brass and any beneficial properties it may have as a projectile over copper. Is there a reason it was chosen or did you just use material that was available? Curious what you used to machine these with. We had swiss screw machines at my last job that had bar feeders attached. They could really crank out a lot of parts. Brass was a favorite material for the machinists because it machined so well. I wouldn't really call those boat tailed bullets. Looks more like a significant chamfer on the rear which is fine. An edge break is really all you need but the chamfer would make them easier to load with less belling of the case mouth required when loading. Not sure if you've seen this website before, but might give you some ideas on bullet profiles for monolithic bullets. https://lehighdefense.com/reloading-bullets.html ETA: added "required" above to clarify meaning. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:43:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: spydercomonkey]
[#9]
Great work, super cool project.
Fort Scott Munitions makes the 80gr 9mm TUI projectile, which is a pretty simple 'point cone' profile. That seems like it would be easiest to machine. 80gr on left:  |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 7:17:33 AM EDT
[#10]
Originally Posted By Elwood_Blues: Those look very nice, indeed. I'd be wary of an inconsistent diameter with solid bullets raising pressures when loading them hot. Originally Posted By Blowout: Nicely done! I'm not familiar with 360 brass and any beneficial properties it may have as a projectile over copper. Is there a reason it was chosen or did you just use material that was available? Curious what you used to machine these with. We had swiss screw machines at my last job that had bar feeders attached. They could really crank out a lot of parts. Brass was a favorite material for the machinists because it machined so well. I wouldn't really call those boat tailed bullets. Looks more like a significant chamfer on the rear which is fine. An edge break is really all you need but the chamfer would make them easier to load with less belling of the case mouth when loading. Not sure if you've seen this website before, but might give you some ideas on bullet profiles for monolithic bullets. https://lehighdefense.com/reloading-bullets.html These were done a Mazak QT15n. The point is a tangential ogive, we wanted a secant ogive but I don't think that version of Mazatrol is up to the task. I'm glad to see these are getting compliments, I had no idea what to expect. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:14:43 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MethaneMover: After we got settled in the diameters bounced around at .3552 - .3544. Brass is easy to machine and relatively dense. Makes it easier to keep the diameter in check. These were done a Mazak QT15n. The point is a tangential ogive, we wanted a secant ogive but I don't think that version of Mazatrol is up to the task. I'm glad to see these are getting compliments, I had no idea what to expect. Brass might be soft enough for a form tool you custom grind, lol. Yeah, those are pretty. Might make a good, deep penetrating bear load. For a hotter cartridge like 357Sig a simple truncated cone profile would work. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:37:47 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KalmanPhilter: Brass might be soft enough for a form tool you custom grind, lol. Yeah, those are pretty. Might make a good, deep penetrating bear load. For a hotter cartridge like 357Sig a simple truncated cone profile would work. Like I said- he's the reloader, I just make what he wants. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:45:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 243winxb]
[#13]
Barnes has load data for a 95 gr copper bullet. The boatail will not bulge the case on loading. A good thing, as long copper bullets may be seated deeper in the 9mm Luger, tapered case.
Copper makes a longer bullet, when compared to a jacketed lead core bullet, of the same weight. Your bullet diameter may be undersize for some 9mm Luger barrels? Bullets will be riding on the lands, mostly. Less pressure. Your not a handloader? Will anyone test fire the beautiful bullets? |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:51:21 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 243winxb: Barnes has load data for a 95 gr copper bullet. The boatail will not bulge the case on loading. A good thing as long copper bullets may be seated deeper in the case. Your bullet diameter may be undersize for some 9mm Luger barrels? Bullets will be riding on the lands, mostly. Less pressure. Your not a handloader? Will anyone test fire the beautiful bullets? I'll see if I can get load and chrono data to share, when he does it. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 11:07:15 AM EDT
[#15]
The 9mm Luger Barnes data for the 95-grain TAC-XP may be useful for a starting load?
The Barnes bullet will produce more pressure because of a full, longer bearing surface. Plus its heavier. IF copper alloys are close in same hardness? |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 12:30:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Copper isn't really an option for turned bullets, at least not for me. It's so gummy that it's hard to keep size and finish acceptable.
I could make a custom die, if desired, but want to see where the machined solids go first. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 3:12:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Check out Lehigh Defense for inspiration! I bought some 44 and 45 cal bullets from them.
Paladin https://lehighdefense.com/ |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 3:34:33 PM EDT
[#18]
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AR, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 7:42:15 PM EDT
[#19]
I've spent considerable time researching and pondering custom turned bullets. I have a self converted cnc lathe driven with ballscrews that can hold the tolerances required and devised a method for a bar feed using the carriage and pneumatic collet, but the cost/bullet is the main deterrent.
Another major problem is the "relief grooves" or whatever they're called that allows the material removed by the rifling to collect and prevent excess pressure. From what I gather, without those the copper can be removed from the front and be progressively friction welded to the rear, increasing the diameter of the bullet. On the flip side, too much relief area will result in an unstable round with too low of pressure. My interest has since turned to using already common, cheap factory bullets that can be modified with cnc. My first trials will be for a cost effective substitute for the popular 300 blkout "subx" bullets since I regularly load and shoot suppressed. The plan is to spin factory fmj or something like Berry's 220 plated in a collet, bore a hollow point into the nose and laser cut expansion lines. Next inserting an aluminum plug made from ultra soft welding rod before re-profiling the tip to match the profile. Yeah, I know... way too much effort for the cost savings. But the enjoyment of making something outta nothing is big fun lol |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 8:27:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Dano523]
[#20]
Small BT is fine, since will help with loading in cases if not using a MR bullet type expander.
Being brass and unlike a lead core, make sure to OD at .355? .356 or larger like you would for a cast bullet, just going to wear out the rifling faster or cause excess pressure, since the copper will not compress like a lead core bullet. As for brass/copper/bronze bullets, metal its self has less density than lead, so going to get quicker speeds, but will slow down a lot faster as it going to down range. The shallow HP design, wasting your time, since will not cause the bullet expand while passing through target. Also, driving band not need, and in fact since the copper is so hard, more releif cuts on the bearing area of the bullet to rifling would be betters, since will reduce embed pressures to rifling, and allow faster bullet speeds at less working pressures. So for making solid brass/copper/Bronze bullets, need to either get round stock, or turn rod stock to .335" in the first place. As stated, material is harder then lead core, so not a problem with proper engagement of rifling at that size, and anything larger down the boar, going to wear out the rifling quickly, or cause the ammo to go way over pressure isntead. Simply, solid brass/copper/bronze bullet should be dedicate to large Africa game animal like elephants, where you need the bullet to drive deep without expanding, to be able to get to the deep kill zone in the first place. In something like 9mm, HP design, lead core bullet any day of the week, since will have the needed density to carry the weight without slowing down quickly, and for what 9mm is used for, want the bullet to start to expand as it enters the target withing the first inch. So give you an A for pretty bullets, and will make up some nice showcase rounds, but in regards to performance over all, going to fail on that one, and just punch spear holes straight through someone instead. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 9:14:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Originally Posted By beansnicewater: I've spent considerable time researching and pondering custom turned bullets. I have a self converted cnc lathe driven with ballscrews that can hold the tolerances required and devised a method for a bar feed using the carriage and pneumatic collet, but the cost/bullet is the main deterrent. Another major problem is the "relief grooves" or whatever they're called that allows the material removed by the rifling to collect and prevent excess pressure. From what I gather, without those the copper can be removed from the front and be progressively friction welded to the rear, increasing the diameter of the bullet. On the flip side, too much relief area will result in an unstable round with too low of pressure. Originally Posted By Dano523: So give you an A for pretty bullets, and will make up some nice showcase rounds, but in regards to performance over all, going to fail on that one, and just punch spear holes straight through someone instead. As for the dimensions, that's not really an issue. How deep does the HP need to go? Like mentioned above, I think he has some .357 intentions. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:06:39 PM EDT
[#22]
Pretty neat stuff. Sure wish I had access to a similar setup (and the knowledge to use it). I can design stuff pretty well…but machining the ideas into reality, well that isn’t one of my major skills.
Maybe someday. Meanwhile- you should definitely look at some of the other designs out there like Lehigh. If you are going to experiment, might as well have lots of fun! |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 8:03:40 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By beansnicewater: I've spent considerable time researching and pondering custom turned bullets. I have a self converted cnc lathe driven with ballscrews that can hold the tolerances required and devised a method for a bar feed using the carriage and pneumatic collet, but the cost/bullet is the main deterrent. Another major problem is the "relief grooves" or whatever they're called that allows the material removed by the rifling to collect and prevent excess pressure. From what I gather, without those the copper can be removed from the front and be progressively friction welded to the rear, increasing the diameter of the bullet. On the flip side, too much relief area will result in an unstable round with too low of pressure. My interest has since turned to using already common, cheap factory bullets that can be modified with cnc. My first trials will be for a cost effective substitute for the popular 300 blkout "subx" bullets since I regularly load and shoot suppressed. The plan is to spin factory fmj or something like Berry's 220 plated in a collet, bore a hollow point into the nose and laser cut expansion lines. Next inserting an aluminum plug made from ultra soft welding rod before re-profiling the tip to match the profile. Yeah, I know... way too much effort for the cost savings. But the enjoyment of making something outta nothing is big fun lol Please start a thread with pics when you undertake that effort. Sounds very interesting. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 10:15:50 AM EDT
[#24]
My understanding is relief grooves are of a lesser diameter of the body, and drive bands are of a larger, external diameter. In order to create drive bands, the stock you're machining from would be of a greater diameter of the projectile. The objective of drive bands is they engage the rifling, not the projectile's body.
Around 10 years ago there was local company that produced premium copper hunting bullets turned on a screw machine. The parent company was in South Africa. The owner's daughter was running the US operation. They were bought out by Chey Tac, then I hadn't heard much about them. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 10:33:57 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Moondog: My understanding is relief grooves are of a lesser diameter of the body, and drive bands are of a larger, external diameter. In order to create drive bands, the stock you're machining from would be of a greater diameter of the projectile. The objective of drive bands is they engage the rifling, not the projectile's body. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 11:14:56 AM EDT
[#26]
Take a look at the THV 9mm rounds for some insparation.
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