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Posted: 2/4/2021 9:29:42 PM EDT
https://www.instagram.com/p/CK1-GAELSI0/?igshid=1kt8qsu8ylgzg
The link has more pictures but they were too big to upload.  Attached File |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 10:26:38 PM EDT
[#1]
Glad someone shot them to dispel the 7.62 NATO/.308 myth.
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Posted: 2/4/2021 10:50:55 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glad someone shot them to dispel the 7.62 NATO/.308 myth. This is why I'm glad y'all got me set up with the 3810's instead. Knowing the L210's are likely to stop 855A1 makes me happy knowing the 3810's probably will also, but I'm even more comfortable knowing for sure they'll stop 308. |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 11:00:51 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Glad someone shot them to dispel the 7.62 NATO/.308 myth. Not being an expert on armor, is it possible that the previous 10 shots weakened the plate up enough? I'm not saying I think it would take it like a champ, but is it possible a fresh plate could stop one or two rounds with pretty serious BFD? |
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Posted: 2/4/2021 11:49:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I'm glad y'all got me set up with the 3810's instead. Knowing the L210's are likely to stop 855A1 makes me happy knowing the 3810's probably will also, but I'm even more comfortable knowing for sure they'll stop 308. Exactly this. Also from Patriot_Man |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 6:49:26 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not being an expert on armor, is it possible that the previous 10 shots weakened the plate up enough? I'm not saying I think it would take it like a champ, but is it possible a fresh plate could stop one or two rounds with pretty serious BFD? That's possible. I'm interested also. Also interested to know what barrel length the M855A1 was shot from. 14.5", 16", 20"? Did they record velocities? Hopefully once @Buffman_LT1 does his L210 test he'll do only one round of M855A1 and then move on to 308, or start with a round of 308 and move on to M855A1, and we'll find out whether the severe degradation of this plate made it fail against 308. Edit to add: Went and read the comments on their instagram post. They used a 16" barrel for the M855A1 and did not record any velocities. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 6:52:41 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I'm glad y'all got me set up with the 3810's instead. Knowing the L210's are likely to stop 855A1 makes me happy knowing the 3810's probably will also, but I'm even more comfortable knowing for sure they'll stop 308. I wouldn't make that assumption. The L210 is a mostly ceramic construction, whereas the 3810 is a mostly polyethylene construction with a thin ceramic strike face. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 10:30:34 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's possible. I'm interested also. Also interested to know what barrel length the M855A1 was shot from. 14.5", 16", 20"? Did they record velocities? Hopefully once @Buffman_LT1 does his L210 test he'll do only one round of M855A1 and then move on to 308, or start with a round of 308 and move on to M855A1, and we'll find out whether the severe degradation of this plate made it fail against 308. Edit to add: Went and read the comments on their instagram post. They used a 16" barrel for the M855A1 and did not record any velocities. I plan to likely test max velocity M193/m855/m855A1, then move on to maybe 2 rounds of M80 ball, 1 round of M80A1, 1 300 BLK M2AP. 7.62x39 MSC shouldn't be an issue. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 10:48:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Waiting on a reply from the vendor about receiving samples. Although right now it's 16F outside so my clay is going to be worthless for backface, and I feel a plate such as this needs more attention to detail with the backface. I want to procure an oven for heating, but that won't happen until later this year. I have actual ROMA #1 now, and a deeper box (4") I plan to likely test max velocity M193/m855/m855A1, then move on to maybe 2 rounds of M80 ball, 1 round of M80A1, 1 300 BLK M2AP. 7.62x39 MSC shouldn't be an issue. What if you keep the clay inside until it's time to shoot it? |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 11:41:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't make that assumption. The L210 is a mostly ceramic construction, whereas the 3810 is a mostly polyethylene construction with a thin ceramic strike face. Ah, interesting to know! That'd explain the weight discrepancy between the two, always wondered about that. |
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Posted: 2/5/2021 2:53:49 PM EDT
[#10]
I'd love to see how 3810's hold up to M855A1, but I doubt anyone is going to spend that kind of money to destroy them on purpose.
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Posted: 2/6/2021 12:33:24 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if you keep the clay inside until it's time to shoot it? |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 12:38:14 AM EDT
[#12]
I would consider the .308 unfair hits. I have NEVER shot a L210 with .308, but they've shot the plate 10 times already and it appears every passthrough is close to a previous hit.
A fresh plate vs .308 would be interesting. |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 1:09:53 AM EDT
[#13]
15 rounds is WAY more hits than a level 3-ish ceramic plate is rated for.
Would really need to test a new plate vs 308. Start with a center mass perfect condition then a second shot near an edge. |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 12:35:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I plan to likely test max velocity M193/m855/m855A1, then move on to maybe 2 rounds of M80 ball, 1 round of M80A1, 1 300 BLK M2AP. 7.62x39 MSC shouldn't be an issue. I would recommend just skipping the M193 and M855. I think we can all take it as a given that a Hesco plate stops the threats they say it stops. And if the M80 does go through, we don't want to have any doubts about whether it was because of degradation from prior hits like with the Arms Depot test. Assuming you'll only have one L210 plate to test, I'd really recommend starting with one round of M80, then one round of M855A1 farther away on the plate. After that just do whatever, since the M80 and the M855A1 are the most interesting and realistic things. |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 12:44:44 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would recommend just skipping the M193 and M855. I think we can all take it as a given that a Hesco plate stops the threats they say it stops. And if the M80 does go through, we don't want to have any doubts about whether it was because of degradation from prior hits like with the Arms Depot test. Assuming you'll only have one L210 plate to test, I'd really recommend starting with one round of M80, then one round of M855A1 farther away on the plate. After that just do whatever, since the M80 and the M855A1 are the most interesting and realistic things. +1 |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 1:01:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would recommend just skipping the M193 and M855. I think we can all take it as a given that a Hesco plate stops the threats they say it stops. And if the M80 does go through, we don't want to have any doubts about whether it was because of degradation from prior hits like with the Arms Depot test. Assuming you'll only have one L210 plate to test, I'd really recommend starting with one round of M80, then one round of M855A1 farther away on the plate. After that just do whatever, since the M80 and the M855A1 are the most interesting and realistic things. |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 2:13:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would recommend just skipping the M193 and M855. I think we can all take it as a given that a Hesco plate stops the threats they say it stops. And if the M80 does go through, we don't want to have any doubts about whether it was because of degradation from prior hits like with the Arms Depot test. Assuming you'll only have one L210 plate to test, I'd really recommend starting with one round of M80, then one round of M855A1 farther away on the plate. After that just do whatever, since the M80 and the M855A1 are the most interesting and realistic things. Another +1 |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 6:11:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1. +1 I’d be really interested since it might cause me to get new plates. |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 10:53:06 PM EDT
[#19]
I've been meaning to check back in this thread but got a bit busy.
So the thing about the L210 is a pretty thin alumina ceramic strike face backed with e-glass. The chances off a pass through are high or BFD is going to be insane. Also a rule of thumb is if your plate can stop API-BZ, you can be fairly certain it will be able to stop M855A1. |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 11:15:24 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I'm glad y'all got me set up with the 3810's instead. Knowing the L210's are likely to stop 855A1 makes me happy knowing the 3810's probably will also, but I'm even more comfortable knowing for sure they'll stop 308. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Glad someone shot them to dispel the 7.62 NATO/.308 myth. This is why I'm glad y'all got me set up with the 3810's instead. Knowing the L210's are likely to stop 855A1 makes me happy knowing the 3810's probably will also, but I'm even more comfortable knowing for sure they'll stop 308. 3810's stop A1 under 3000fps |
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Posted: 2/6/2021 11:55:43 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been meaning to check back in this thread but got a bit busy. So the thing about the L210 is a pretty thin alumina ceramic strike face backed with e-glass. The chances off a pass through are high or BFD is going to be insane. Also a rule of thumb is if your plate can stop API-BZ, you can be fairly certain it will be able to stop M855A1. |
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Posted: 2/7/2021 12:44:34 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Militech RF2 plate couldn't stop API-BZ, but it did stop 25+ rounds of M855A1 :) Does anyone know how thin the alumina is on the L210? The RMA 1092 was .125" and wasn't able to stop M855a1 at 16" barrel. I don't have the numbers but I'll measure the next time I get a chance. |
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Posted: 2/7/2021 12:57:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 3810's stop A1 under 3000fps Hell yeah, thanks! |
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Posted: 2/7/2021 1:17:52 AM EDT
[#24]
A new L210 will stop m80, but not m80a1. Not sure on strike velocities for those though.
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Posted: 2/9/2021 11:35:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Out of curiosity would something like IIIA Armor Backers add to their effectiveness?
https://store.atarmor.com/AT_29_Kevlar_Plate_Backer_10x12_p/at-29-bkr-10x12.htm |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 12:14:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been meaning to check back in this thread but got a bit busy. So the thing about the L210 is a pretty thin alumina ceramic strike face backed with e-glass. The chances off a pass through are high or BFD is going to be insane. Also a rule of thumb is if your plate can stop API-BZ, you can be fairly certain it will be able to stop M855A1. This seems counterintuitive to me. Although the API-BZ is heavier, it's also wider and slower than M855A1. So I don't see why the wider and slower projectile should be assumed to have better penetration performance than the thinner and faster one. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 12:20:32 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This seems counterintuitive to me. Although the API-BZ is heavier, it's also wider and slower than M855A1. So I don't see why the wider and slower projectile should be assumed to have better penetration performance than the thinner and faster one. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've been meaning to check back in this thread but got a bit busy. So the thing about the L210 is a pretty thin alumina ceramic strike face backed with e-glass. The chances off a pass through are high or BFD is going to be insane. Also a rule of thumb is if your plate can stop API-BZ, you can be fairly certain it will be able to stop M855A1. This seems counterintuitive to me. Although the API-BZ is heavier, it's also wider and slower than M855A1. So I don't see why the wider and slower projectile should be assumed to have better penetration performance than the thinner and faster one. While I don't know the accuracy of his claims, a slow true AP projectile will penetrate really well. 30-06 AP projectiles reloaded going slower than their "milspec' 06 velocities still penetrate really well. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 12:30:49 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: While I don't know the accuracy of his claims, a slow true AP projectile will penetrate really well. 30-06 AP projectiles reloaded going slower than their "milspec' 06 velocities still penetrate really well. Is the API-BZ bullet made of tungsten or something? I thought it was just another hardened steel core bullet. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 2:19:13 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the API-BZ bullet made of tungsten or something? I thought it was just another hardened steel core bullet. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 2:30:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the API-BZ bullet made of tungsten or something? I thought it was just another hardened steel core bullet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: While I don't know the accuracy of his claims, a slow true AP projectile will penetrate really well. 30-06 AP projectiles reloaded going slower than their "milspec' 06 velocities still penetrate really well. Is the API-BZ bullet made of tungsten or something? I thought it was just another hardened steel core bullet. I'm not well versed on x39 API. It's probably just hardened steel, but sometimes a larger mass of a harder material wins out. M855a1 might penetrate some plates, but the cores are generally going really slow once they make it through. They don't have enough momentum or retain enough energy. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of A1 cores sticking to thick plastic that was behind a plate they penetrated. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 2:31:09 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are a few variants of it's design, but it's just a hardened steel core (Not tungsten). Perhaps the larger and heavier core going slower, is enough to break the ceramic and continue to penetrate? I noted the same occurrence with the Mtech RF2 plate. M2-AP going 1700 fps was able to penetrate it just like the API-BZ, but that thing tested against stopped 26 rounds of M855A1. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is the API-BZ bullet made of tungsten or something? I thought it was just another hardened steel core bullet. Do you know the mass of the cores of m2AP? I'm assuming it's relatively heavy. |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 10:28:33 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you know the mass of the cores of m2AP? I'm assuming it's relatively heavy. Bullet Weight: 163.6grBullet Length: 1.366" Core Weight: 80.6r Core Length: 1.081" Hardness: 60 RHC (tested two spots). I've read the spec calls for 65RHC Material Makeup: .805% Mn 99.196% FE  M2 Armor Piercing by Buffman RANGE, on Flickr |
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Posted: 2/10/2021 10:55:33 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A new L210 will stop m80, but not m80a1. Not sure on strike velocities for those though. That's good to know. Any idea on the BFD from an M80 hit on a fresh plate? |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 5:51:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is why I'm glad y'all got me set up with the 3810's instead. Knowing the L210's are likely to stop 855A1 makes me happy knowing the 3810's probably will also, but I'm even more comfortable knowing for sure they'll stop 308. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 6:10:35 PM EDT
[#35]
Esstac said 3810s stop A1 under 3000fps?
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Posted: 2/14/2021 6:19:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Esstac said 3810s stop A1 under 3000fps? That's not a guarantee, but I've seen evidence of it.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 8:08:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been meaning to check back in this thread but got a bit busy. So the thing about the L210 is a pretty thin alumina ceramic strike face backed with e-glass. The chances off a pass through are high or BFD is going to be insane. Also a rule of thumb is if your plate can stop API-BZ, you can be fairly certain it will be able to stop M855A1. That's interesting, I wasn't aware that e-glass was used in actual manufactured armor. I've heard that people making homemade armor often use fiberglass because it's easy to buy and worth with by hand compared to the equipment you need to manufacture ceramic and poly armor, but I guess that might be part of why the L210 is so affordable. I knew that it had little if any polyethylene. So I assumed that any 0.59" thick plate that can stop full velocity M193 and M855 must be almost fully ceramic. Man, if a plate that thin made mostly of e-glass can stop full velocity M193 and M855, then that must be a much more impressive material than I thought. |
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Posted: 2/14/2021 8:09:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's not a guarantee, but I've seen evidence of it. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/477522/received_431609404840610_jpeg-1825385.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/477522/received_816116042320623_jpeg-1825387.JPG @RyanEsstac Do you have data on hand for what barrel length that M855A1 was fired through, and maybe recorded velocities? |
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