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Posted: 10/28/2023 9:35:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: StaccatoC2]
First block or concrete is not an option.
My plan is 2x4 walls with the out side being a layer of half inch ply, with hardware mesh on it, then a layer of real cement board and another layer of half inch ply, then drywall. Every layer with lots of screws and liquid nails. The inside will also have a layer of half inch ply as well. I plan on lots of cross bracing between the studs and metal track on the door opening studs.The metal track over a wood 2x4 should stop the door frame support from failing if someone tries to just beat their way thru the door. I figure the cement board will stop sawzalls and circular saws, and the liquid nails with hardware mesh will stop a sledge hammer attack. any other simple additions you would suggest? |
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Posted: 10/28/2023 9:43:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: aod886]
[#1]
Keep the 2x4s close together. Something like 8" on center.
Use 4x4s on either side of the doorframe. Make sure you're anchored on top and bottom to keep flex in the wall at minimum. ...Just some thoughts anyway. Edit to add: If it's going to be a "safe room" as well, if you could sandbag at least 4 feet off the ground. This would give some ballistic protection. |
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Posted: 10/28/2023 9:48:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Sounds like a plan.
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Posted: 10/28/2023 10:02:49 PM EDT
[#3]
By mesh, if you mean expanded steel, that should stop most forms of cutting action, or slow it down a lot.
Also consider any outlets/switches you may need to put in that wall. All that added thickness may make mounting boxes difficult. |
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Posted: 10/29/2023 12:33:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: StaccatoC2]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rcav8r: By mesh, if you mean expanded steel, that should stop most forms of cutting action, or slow it down a lot. Expanded mesh in a wood wall could be cut in minutes with a sawzall and a metal blade, like make a 2x2 hole in less than 5 mins. Infact anchoring it makes it even easier to cut. Thats the reason for the cement board, not cutting it with any normal saw blade. The hardware mesh is normally 1/4 or 1/2 inch grid, its there more for the sledgehammer type attack when glued between all the other stuff. It is not as strong as expanded metal, but buried and glued in the wall it should give plenty of support. Picture it like the wires embedded in some windows, everything can break around it but it holds it all together. oh electrically I am an electrician, thats not a problem. |
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Posted: 10/29/2023 12:58:33 AM EDT
[#5]
I knew a guy did a inner basement wall with sheets of steel bolted to the studs and tac welded the joints.
Not sure what the difference is on Real cement board. What can a spud bar and sledge do to the wall? |
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Posted: 10/29/2023 1:03:09 AM EDT
[#6]
That's almost identical to what I did.
I did 3/4" ply, 1/2" concrete board, metal lath, then repeated several times. Did steel plate around the opening for the door. The door is the weakest part at this point. Or the ceiling, technically speaking. |
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Posted: 10/29/2023 7:59:28 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StaccatoC2: Expanded mesh in a wood wall could be cut in minutes with a sawzall and a metal blade, like make a 2x2 hole in less than 5 mins. Infact anchoring it makes it even easier to cut. Thats the reason for the cement board, not cutting it with any normal saw blade. The hardware mesh is normally 1/4 or 1/2 inch grid, its there more for the sledgehammer type attack when glued between all the other stuff. It is not as strong as expanded metal, but buried and glued in the wall it should give plenty of support. Picture it like the wires embedded in some windows, everything can break around it but it holds it all together. oh electrically I am an electrician, thats not a problem. Interesting about the mesh. I see what you mean now. |
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Posted: 10/29/2023 9:50:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tango: I knew a guy did a inner basement wall with sheets of steel bolted to the studs and tac welded the joints. Not sure what the difference is on Real cement board. What can a spud bar and sledge do to the wall? Plywood would do pretty well on its own against a sledge, its bouncy enough to make it have trouble. Problem is its easy to cut, cement board is hard to cut but not great against a sledge. combine them with the mesh and lots of glue to hold it all together and the composite it pretty resistant to both attacks. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/4/2023 4:53:05 PM EDT
[#9]
If it wouldn't look too out of place without a lot of extra work/money making it a hidden door is a good option also.
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USA
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Posted: 11/4/2023 5:05:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Along the lines of my plan too. I might just steal yours, because it sounds a little more robust. Are you doing a vault door, or just a commercial security door? Any plans for a ceiling? I'm also thinking about adding a raised floor to keep water out.
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KY, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2023 5:44:40 PM EDT
[#11]
My pics are buried on the pages here but I built a big wall to seal off my gun vault. I used 2 by 6’s sistered together near the door and on 6” centers, with loose rebar in between them. This will help on any sawzall attack. I then have layers of wood, thinset, backer board, thinset and tile. I also did steel on the ceiling to prevent attacks from he top. The rest is foundation so nobody is coming through that.
   
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KY, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2023 5:48:28 PM EDT
[#12]
The finished product after a smith vault door and Gallowtech panels trimmed out with custom Cherry.
 
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KY, USA
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Posted: 11/4/2023 6:00:34 PM EDT
[#13]
For additions I would consider a way to run a drain line for if you need to run a dehumidifier. I have an access point but have never needed it. I have a vent and return duct ran in mine as well. I do wish I ran cat5 to the corner for a camera but have one on the outside now. smith doors are a great investment. I didn’t do concrete block due to the weight and my slab not being reinforced at the base. I would have likely cracked the foundation and tile over time. Wasn’t worth it to me. Nobody is coming through this wall.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/5/2023 3:45:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JTMcC]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mclark202: For additions I would consider a way to run a drain line for if you need to run a dehumidifier. I have an access point but have never needed it. I have a vent and return duct ran in mine as well. I do wish I ran cat5 to the corner for a camera but have one on the outside now. smith doors are a great investment. I didn’t do concrete block due to the weight and my slab not being reinforced at the base. I would have likely cracked the foundation and tile over time. Wasn’t worth it to me. Nobody is coming through this wall. You keep using the word "nobody". I can get thru your walls fairly quick and fairly quiet. That doesn't mean the average crook can. I've built bank vaults and done a large amount of new work/modifications in jails/prisons. There is a reason they do not frame with wood  Anything wood framed I can defeat without effort. Good for you doing a more than average job but do not say "nobody is coming thru this wall". I armored a number of connex's for PKS after industrious and knowledgable thieves cut holes thru the sidewalls and stole expensive equipment. The laser leveling system for motor graders was over 1 million back then. And, they were stealing in a tightly controlled environment with "security", an airport. They could of still gotten into them, but it would of taken several hours. If I was building a hardened gun room, I'd saw cut the foundation and pour appropriate footing to support significant concrete. That, or do what I did, a 10 year old could access my gun room in a few minutes, but it's seriously hidden and there's no way to know it's there short of using a metal detector. |
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Posted: 11/5/2023 3:58:00 PM EDT
[#15]
It all depends on a person's level of paranoia and how deeply they want to go down the rabbit hole of defense. With enough time and equipment, a determined thief will defeat a safe, or a safe room.
If I was just trying to keep a smash and grab burglar from accessing guns, a stout safe would work. However, a real pro that is a determined thief with an acetylene torch and safe moving dolly, or a truck with a heavy duty winch might eventually get through. My point is that it would be a battle between OP and the thief..it all depends on how determined either one is. If OP installs quarter inch thick AR500 armor plate, someone will explain how that can be defeated and he should really use three quarter inch armor plate...locks only keep honest people out. |
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Posted: 11/7/2023 10:31:04 PM EDT
[#16]
To answer a couple of questions.
Doing a drain is easy if I need it, sump is in the room next door less than 10 feet away. Normal fire rated security door, with some extras along with the mag locks. I will be doing something with the ceiling, but if some one is willing to go thru the hardwood floor, plywood under floor and a ceiling they can have whats in there. I dont own anything worth lots, I just want to keep them safe from someone who is just trying to get some guns quick. I am thinking about putting up a layer of 1/2 ply with a bunch of cheap chainsaw chaps between a second layer of ply. My thinking is someone could try a circ saw to go thru the hardwood floor and sub floor. But a circ saw would almost be useless between the joists, so that leaves a sawzall or chainsaw. If they try to use a chainsaw, they are screwed and a sawzall will also hate the chaps. I dont need to cover the whole ceiling, but 300-400 bucks of 50 buck chaps is easy and cheap enough and cover enough. I did think about putting them in the wall as well, but the cement board will stop a chainsaw, but on the ceiling it would be easy to stomp thru. With the existing layer of drywall and two layers of ply and another layer of drywall it will be somewhat fire resistant. I do plan on 12 inch centers on the wall studs. Again the studs wont really be there for strength just support the wall that wont be easy to get thru. |
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Posted: 11/21/2023 7:25:05 PM EDT
[#17]
That loose rebar trick is pretty neat.
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Posted: 11/24/2023 9:49:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mclark202: The finished product after a smith vault door and Gallowtech panels trimmed out with custom Cherry. https://i.imgur.com/GuAiEXi.jpg https://i.imgur.com/yz6UCj2.jpg That build looks nice but I don’t think the Weller SR really merits a vault… the rest of that wall though 
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Posted: 11/26/2023 1:32:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin: That loose rebar trick is pretty neat. Even better is use a smooth rod it makes it harder to cut as it spins even easier. If you really want to over board put smooth rod in a pipe with some grease ( so it does not rust and stick in place ). Try to cut that with a sawzall and the rod will just spin as the teeth try to bite in and being in the pipe you cant do anything to stop it from spinning as you cant hold on to it. @Wobblin-Goblin |
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USA
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Posted: 11/26/2023 1:49:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StaccatoC2: Even better is use a smooth rod it makes it harder to cut as it spins even easier. If you really want to over board put smooth rod in a pipe with some grease ( so it does not rust and stick in place ). Try to cut that with a sawzall and the rod will just spin as the teeth try to bite in and being in the pipe you cant do anything to stop it from spinning as you cant hold on to it. @Wobblin-Goblin Was going to post this. |
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Posted: 11/26/2023 4:41:17 PM EDT
[#21]
How about you use steel water pipe for the outer tube, and rebar for the inside? The ribs on the rebar should minimize contact so you could eliminate the grease. The pipe would be a bit harder than the rebar, and smooth.
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Posted: 11/26/2023 8:15:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Even better: use stainless steel rods inside the pipe (and still grease them). The rod will still rotate with the blade and it will also be harder to cut.
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Posted: 11/27/2023 8:22:59 AM EDT
[#23]
@JTMcC
Any pointers or best practices for setting up a hidden gun room? Types of entrances, locating on a floor plan, etc? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 11/27/2023 9:00:12 PM EDT
[#24]
Anyplace in the home that it isn't obvious, standing in one point, that there"s something in there. ie people can be on either side of a wall and not notice that theres a space built in. That's a lot easier than it sounds.
Getting fancy, a bookcase/etc can pivot open. Mine is very simple, but undetectable. It was originally a closet and still is only behind some finished framing that opens easily. If they have no idea it even exists, they won't be robbing it. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 12/27/2023 8:33:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mclark202: The finished product after a smith vault door and Gallowtech panels trimmed out with custom Cherry. https://i.imgur.com/GuAiEXi.jpg I'd go in just for the Whiskey, forget the guns ! 
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VA, USA
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Posted: 12/28/2023 12:44:23 AM EDT
[#26]
Looks great! I respect the obvious careful research and planning. Maybe soon I will be in a similar situation.
couple questions: Or points that were considered: - Nice collection! Does your homeowners insurance have a specific value covering it? Did you run this by them, maybe they would give you a break? (Side note, mine let me bump up my declared value inclusive of "Guns, Jewelry, Furs, Stamps etc." not gun specific and no mention or provision for safe or alarms etc.) - Did you consider metal studs like they use in commercial? Price of lumber is infuriating... They are also light and would be good for the ceiling I think - cost and weight of all that wall material really adds up. I was thinking substituting some with ceramic tile... color and exact size would not matter, figure I can get a mix/match of overruns, leftovers, clearance stuff dirt cheap o ie: [lower cost] MDF > mesh [like they use in concrete slabs] > mortar > tile/grout > mortar > mesh > MDF |
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Posted: 1/26/2024 10:09:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 40_and_invisible: Looks great! I respect the obvious careful research and planning. Maybe soon I will be in a similar situation. couple questions: Or points that were considered: - Nice collection! Does your homeowners insurance have a specific value covering it? Did you run this by them, maybe they would give you a break? (Side note, mine let me bump up my declared value inclusive of "Guns, Jewelry, Furs, Stamps etc." not gun specific and no mention or provision for safe or alarms etc.) - Did you consider metal studs like they use in commercial? Price of lumber is infuriating... They are also light and would be good for the ceiling I think - cost and weight of all that wall material really adds up. I was thinking substituting some with ceramic tile... color and exact size would not matter, figure I can get a mix/match of overruns, leftovers, clearance stuff dirt cheap o ie: [lower cost] MDF > mesh [like they use in concrete slabs] > mortar > tile/grout > mortar > mesh > MDF If you think the price of wood is nuts wait until you price metal studs. And normal 22 gauge studs are not very strong, you would want to use 18 gauge, they are actually considered structual. Also dont use mdf, while it heavy its not very strong. Putting tile in it would be great against cutting attacks, but not great against smashing attacks until solidly thinset on to a backer, then it would do well. Heck I would actually use liquid nails instead of thinset, liquid nails at least has some give where thinset does not. Tile would be more secure than the cement board I will be using for the cutting attacks. @40_and_invisible |
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Posted: 1/28/2024 3:14:28 AM EDT
[#28]
Add a layer of asbestos insulation, that way when they cut into it and make it airborne they'll get mesothelioma several years later. Gotta play the long game too
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Posted: 2/8/2024 10:21:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Ok framing going in over the next week, the walls will be the ply, mesh, tile and another ply covered in drywall.
The real issue is the door, after looking at doors both commercial and heavy duty resi doors I have just decided to build my own. I have a welder and know how to use it. I got a price for the steel for a 72x30 inch door and its about 250 plus tax. Thats 2 skins of 1/8 inch steel with a 1x1 tube frame on 8 inch centers. I will infill the the frame with tile and drywall before the second skin goes on. I will buy a combo lock and make a locking system similar to a gun safe. The door jam I have designed I happen to have all the steel on hand already and its 2 pieces of 2x3 .120 rect tube that the door will lock to. It will capture the wall between the steel so it cant be pushed in or pulled out. So someone who tries to cut thru the door will have to go thru the 1/8 skin and the framing filled with tile/drywall then another 1/8 skin. The weight of the steel in the door alone is about 300lbs, jams even more. If they try to cut thru the jam they will have to cut thru several layers of steel and to a depth of a min of 2 inches, but actually 4 inches to get to the anchor bolts. This pretty much stops normal angle grinders at they rally can only cut 1.5 inches deep. It may not be as good as a real vault door but considering its not set in concrete it will be good enough. |
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Posted: 3/11/2024 9:59:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: StaccatoC2]
[#30]
Some minor updates. Door is basically compete minus the handle that I am waiting for and paint. By my estimate the door weights about 400 lbs and is filled with things of varying density's and resistance to cutting. Don't mind the temp handle
The door is 11 gauge steel sheet with 1x3 .125 wall exterior frame and a 1x1 inner frame also .125 wall making the door 3.25 inches thick. The spaces between the inner frame is full with stuff that is hard to cut and some stuff that is gummy if you try a cut off wheel. The there is another inner skin of 11 gauge. The combo dial and handle go thru a 1x1 and after they are installed the last time I am filling the 1x1 with 3/8 ball bearings. The locking bolts are drill rod and go into pipes welded in to the door frame. The door frame is 2x3 .125 wall welded together and bolted to the frame. There is steel on both sides of the wall so it can not be pushed in or pulled out. The framing of the wall is braced like a mofo. The wall itself is 2 inches thick again with layers of things that are resistant to cutting by various means. Imagine chobham armor but a wall built from it Obviously the pics are kind of limited on what they show on purpose.  Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 3/11/2024 10:15:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: StaccatoC2]
[#31]
Oh one thing is I did not use cement board, the previous owner left about 300 sq ft of tile in the garage. I assume it was meant to retile the kitchen and bath rooms. But I used it to make the door and wall grinder and sawzall resistant. Along with so far about 66 tubes of liquid nails ( I bought 3 cases ) and I have not hung the drywall yet which will have to be glued on as there is no way to screw or nail it on. From assembling and working with the wall I think it weighs about 200-250 lbs per 4x8 area, yes I weighed some of the parts
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Posted: 3/14/2024 9:27:57 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mclark202: The finished product after a smith vault door and Gallowtech panels trimmed out with custom Cherry. https://i.imgur.com/GuAiEXi.jpg https://i.imgur.com/yz6UCj2.jpg F' the Guns........ I WANT the Bourbon!!!!
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