Hi everyone - hope you are all enjoying your weekend.

I posted this up in the Retro M-16 thread which was the wrong venue, but got some really great thoughts as I was confused how Colt would have record of this being Mfg in 1995, yet it's fully transferable.

The serial on the A2 lower is 8,17X,XXX as well, which seemed pretty late.

I wanted to post up the full set of high-rez pics my colleague took of the rifle.  It has appx 100 rds through it.

I know there are a lot of experts here.  Any thoughts as to if these parts are original/factory config, and if so, how that would've been possible?  I've read about the 'John Keosayian Collection' from 2008, which was really interesting.

Is it possible that this was also a held-back A2 receiver?  What do you think about the configuration?

Very interested to hear all of your thoughts on this rifle.

Here is the full image set:

That lower uses a common A2 forging type from the correct era for a transferable Colt A2. It’s not an A4 forging. The photos you posted in your other thread show the lower being gray. The lighting in these photos make it appear black.

Where did you find 85 and 95 manufacturing records from Colt? And what exactly did the records show?

The Keyosian guns went through a handful of SOTs up in PA. Chester County Armory has sold a bunch. Target Master had some too. I can’t recall if Dennis Todd had any. All that I’ve seen for sale over the years were black anodized and used the later lower forging type that did not exist prior to 5/19/86. Keyosian had Colt destroy transferable lowers, use the serial numbers on newly made lowers. You could start by reaching out to Chad at Chester County Armory and see if he knows anything about your particular rifle.

If anyone wants an interesting read:

Keosayian M16 origin story on Strum

I see you have it listed on Gunbroker for $55k. That’s definitely on the high side for an A2. I hope you get that much. Listing it on Sturmgewehr is a good idea as well.

I’ve found that selling high dollar items on Gunbroker is best done with low starting price no reserve auctions, as this type of auction draws in those with the gambling mentality, multiple bidders results in competition, competition fires up the ego, and the end result is a bidding war that sells your item for more money. Fixed high price items tend not to sell on Gunbroker.

Sturm is a better place to list an item at a fixed price.

Most likely not original configuration, someone probably changed out the upper on a transferable lower.

That is the most definitive discussion of the Keyosian guns that can be found on the internet. Others were more wrapped in mystery, likely for fear of openly discussing what most consider to be very gray area guns that could be subject to the whims of ATF if they later decide they are not transferable.

Chad at CC Armory’s post re: serial numbers and configurations is particularly informative.

This.

If seller really wants top dollar I say put the correct a2 upper on it...which is hard to find the correct 1980s era upper...but they are out there.

The fact it's auto marked makes it worth more to buyers, and the fact it is NOT a K collection is a GOOD thing.

55k on GB is a tough sell as then buyer also has sales tax.  Put that on Sturm for 50k and it might sell at that, and depending on GB fees it's prob ends up being same amount in your pocket at the end of the day.

100% agree.

I think someone only changed the upper receiver.
Colt A2 upper receivers appear on the EE occasionally.


RCA

Nice rifle, but definitely a re-pop using the old SN#

It's not the latest forging, but it's still different than the A2 forgings from 85/86. You can tell by looking at the area surrounding the front push pin and of course they weren't using black die to color the anodizing bath in the 80's.

As discussed, this was legal and being done by many companies long before anyone heard the name K. Unfortunately, too many poindexters started poking the bear by requesting approval letters or asking too many questions.

With the vast amount of moron's within the firearms community, who needs enemies.

That forging type was seen on transferable A2s as well as early post samples. The lower in question is gray.  The OP started a different thread in the retro subforum that had different pics in different lighting and the lower is definitely the correct Colt gray for that era.

As stated, with Colt anything is possible but looking at the other thread and the so called 1995 mfg date I'm even more convinced it's some odd midnight shift quasi-era re-pop. Strange look to that forging around the front push pin, no paint dab on the bolt catch even though they gouged the aluminum on install, super high SN#, it would be interesting to see what markings are on the inside of the A2 grip as the 80's guns all seem to have the same few lot codes.

As a side note - It's been my understanding that Colt wouldn't provide any info regarding machine guns over the phone or in writing via the historical dept, yet they did for the OP (maybe that's changed since the acquisition by CZ?).

Anyhow, I've got some detailed photos of legit factory transferable 85/86 M16A2's I can share for reference and comparison if someone cares enough to post them up. Unfortunately, I don't have a photo hosting account anymore.

The 85 and 95 dates definitely suggest it is a remanufactured/recycled lower. I was just pointing out that the forging type alone was seen on true pre-5/19/86 transferable Colt A2s.

I agree it’s interesting if Colt is offering research services on MGs.

I have several of the Keosayian guns as pointed out in that link/thread mentioned. I don't have records of the OP's gun, but if it is not a remake, than it is one of the guns made for the Seabee's. The reason the auto A2 was created in the first place was because the Navy requested it. Navy was using Vietnam era A1 receivers on their MK18s and requested the reinforced A2s in auto. Colt type classified the requested gun as an M16A2E3 and delivered a batch to the Seabee's. Once the Army saw the Navy got Auto A2s, everybody and their mom wanted auto A2s, so Colt released the A3.

Regarding the information from Colt. Yes you can get the info directly Colt over the phone. I found this out by chance when I called about 10yrs ago. I've told a handful of people about the loophole. I did not want to tell everyone, as I did not want a bunch of people blowing them up and they change their ways. At this point, who cares. They should always provide "legal to give" info to their customers.

10 years ago, when I first called them, I did what everyone else had tried: Called the archive department, only to hear that: "We don't keep records of NFA guns, SBR or Machinegun.
I called again a few weeks later about a pair of Keosayian M16s I had just bought. Got a similar response. Similar.... "We don't keep records of NFA guns, SBR or Machinegun. Only Customer Service has access to that database"... Wait, What?!?! Customer service has records of NFA guns and you, the Archive Department don't have access? Yep...

So I called CS:
Me: Hello, I'd like to get info on a particular pair of serial numbers.
CS: Let me transfer you to the Archive Department.
Me: Wait! I just came from the Archive department. They said they don't have access to the database for these particular guns, but said that CS does.
CS: Whats the serial number?
Me: XXXX
CS: That one is in our database as an M16A4, Model R0901, Manufactured in December of 2008.
Me: How about SN XXXX
CS: That one is not in our "New" Database. Let me check the "Old" database.
CS: Got a hit in the Old database saying it is a SMG, Model R0635, Manufactured in June of 2004.

That's it, that is all you have to do. I have done it a hand full of times over the years with 100% success. The only info they can give you is gun model, sub-model and year of mfg.

As a recap of the process: Have your SN ready. Call Colt CS ((800) 962-2658), Tell them you just called the archive department and they told you to call CS because CS has the database for this particular gun. Give them the SN and be ready to jot down the info. If they say they got no hits, tell them to check the "old" database.

They had the info for most of the M16s I asked about. I also asked about SBRs and they had all the info for those. Have some extra SN ready that you're curious about, in the case they don't get a hit on the first one you tell them.

-Snail

I have a delta carbine close to that serial number marked auto.  Not sure how rare it is.
This just sold on gun broker

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/988536213

That is a gorgeous A2.

The AUTO marking and FCG never stopped being available, despite the fact that the USMC ended up with BURST (as an internal political compromise) on their A2's.

When Colt rolled the A2 line out for L.E. and Export, you could order it with anything you wanted so long as your money was green.

That's why you see both BURST and AUTO marked A2's in the registry. Whether it's a 20" musket manufactured in 84, a 14.5" Carbine manufactured in 85 or a 11.5" Commando that was built and shipped weeks before the NFA ban.

There are obviously .mil contract overruns that made it into the registry as well. How many, nobody knows for sure, but you do see U.S. Property Marked A1's and A2's pop up from time to time. Just when somebody thinks they have a number nailed down, somebody retires or kicks the bucket and more stuff floods onto the market. Most, if not all of the U.S. Property Marked A2's that I've seen have been BURST marked with the USGI stamp on the magwell...which makes sense.

In the last 20+ years, I've seen A1's marked A2, A2's marked A1, A4's marked A2, M4's marked A1 and then with the K collection, every other re-pop or export example you can imagine. Even Gold plated A2's for the Kingdom of Saud...."Pimp my A2"!!! Some of these are for the collector who has everything I guess.

Colt truly was the Willy Wonka factory of the firearms world. Old, historical and shrouded in mystery....absolutely fascinating stuff.

Colt will not release any information on machinegins. I've tried for years and know several people at Colt.

The only way to get information is to do a FOIA request with ATF. You can then see when the form 2 was submitted and any other forms submitted.

$36k hammer price on Gunbroker. That is on the low side, but fitting with the slump we seem to be going into.