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Posted: 9/6/2019 11:45:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 11:48:48 AM EDT
According to a court order filed by the Department of Justice (DOJ) on September 5, investigators want information on users of Obsidian 4, a tool used to control rifle scopes made by night-vision specialist American Technologies Network Corp.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 11:49:09 AM EDT
Just saw this on drudge. Looks like feds are investigating ITAR violations for ATN scopes and requesting all available user info about anyone whose downloaded the ATN app from Apple and google app stores.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 11:54:07 AM EDT
Stick a fork In it — The Constitution is done.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 11:55:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 12:04:49 PM EDT
ATN makes products that are good enough to need ITAR coverage?

Link Posted: 9/6/2019 12:28:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2019 12:29:59 PM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 12:34:47 PM EDT
So... that's a bit 1984.

Just FYI, you can delete the app in Android by going into your PLAY store and uninstall it. It will almost certainly still show up though in this court order.

To then delete it from your library of all Apps you've ever purchased or installed - go over to the Library section in the top of your Play button, and hit the X, to remove the App from your library. Not sure if that then remove it from the Google database that is being petitioned or not, but it might.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 12:42:52 PM EDT
They will be getting the name, address, and telephone number of everyone with the app
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 1:16:05 PM EDT
If anyone wants to legit get flagged in their dragnet to have reason to sue the feds for whatever reason (and play stupid games etc), do the following. Route your devices internet through a proxy outside of the US, go to the App Store, download/install the app, run it etc. You may want to disable your devices gps while doing this so that doesn’t give you away. They are only looking for people downloading and running it overseas.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 1:48:35 PM EDT
So they find out "x" people are in violation but what can they even do about it? Go after who sold or resold the devices? Would've been smarter to just have done a background FW update that bricks the device if it's somewhere it's not supposed to be.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 2:54:16 PM EDT
Will probably scan all app users social media posts and other data to look for export violations.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 5:14:57 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:
So they find out "x" people are in violation but what can they even do about it? Go after who sold or resold the devices? Would've been smarter to just have done a background FW update that bricks the device if it's somewhere it's not supposed to be.
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Apple and Google can remove apps from users phones remotely. If the apps are being installed outside the us and that violates itar, that's probably what will happen.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 5:40:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 5:45:51 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By N-VisionOptics:
Considering that in the Apple App Store ATN's Obsidian 4 application is available in the following languages (check for yourself): English, French, German, Italian, Russian, Spanish it is clear that it was not designed strictly for the US market. Their scopes are all over the world. I'm really glad that somebody finally decided to look into it.
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Where is the OEM factory for ATN stuff? If they’re making or shipping stuff from the USA for foreign markets, that’s obviously a serious issue. If their stuff is made outside of the USA, then it shouldn’t be a problem. Plenty of NV companies (Pulsar?) are foreign and sell to both US and foreign markets.

I don’t know their logistics, but that’s my layman’s understanding of how ITAR works. Of course, plenty of room for error on my part.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 5:48:00 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By N-VisionOptics:
Considering that in the Apple App Store ATN's Obsidian 4 application is available in the following languages (check for yourself): English, French, German, Italian, Russian, Spanish it is clear that it was not designed strictly for the US market. Their scopes are all over the world. I'm really glad that somebody finally decided to look into it.
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Not that you can speak for them but can you neuter scopes through firmware to make them slower, like 5hz instead of 50hz or is that a processor thing?
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 5:49:27 PM EDT
Yeah, I guess I don't understand the 'Big Brother' panic on this! Guys brag their stuff up on here on the goodies they've got, for all to see. I could give a rat's ass that someone knows I own an ATN item! Isn't this a bit overboard on the paranoia level, or am I missing something?
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 5:55:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2019 6:11:54 PM EDT by will-1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OmegamanX:
Yeah, I guess I don't understand the 'Big Brother' panic on this! Guys brag their stuff up on here on the goodies they've got, for all to see. I could give a rat's ass that someone knows I own an ATN item! Isn't this a bit overboard on the paranoia level, or am I missing something?
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I think you’re good bro. It’s not like it’s a EOD robot or something

Edit to add: after thinking about this, if they start going through user’s social media posts, etc. and find something they deem to be a “red flag”.....
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 6:12:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2019 6:13:33 PM EDT by N-VisionOptics]
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 6:24:18 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Just FYI, you can delete the app in Android by going into your PLAY store and uninstall it. It will almost certainly still show up though in this court order.

To then delete it from your library of all Apps you've ever purchased or installed - go over to the Library section in the top of your Play button, and hit the X, to remove the App from your library. Not sure if that then remove it from the Google database that is being petitioned or not, but it might.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Just FYI, you can delete the app in Android by going into your PLAY store and uninstall it. It will almost certainly still show up though in this court order.

To then delete it from your library of all Apps you've ever purchased or installed - go over to the Library section in the top of your Play button, and hit the X, to remove the App from your library. Not sure if that then remove it from the Google database that is being petitioned or not, but it might.
If they've already submitted an affidavit to obtain a warrant/subpoena for the data, they would've preceded that with a records preservation order to ensure the existing data remains intact.

Originally Posted By xjronx:
Apple and Google can remove apps from users phones remotely. If the apps are being installed outside the us and that violates itar, that's probably what will happen.
Also, this.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 6:24:43 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By N-VisionOptics:

Technically it should be/maybe possible. How difficult it is to implement depends on their architecture that I'm not familiar with. However, in case of anything thermal _and_ weapon mountable ITAR does not care about the refresh rate. Essentially, everything that's weapon mountable is under the ITAR and there is no way around it. It's just the way it is and seems to be enforced.

As a side note, it should be quite possible and not too difficult to completely brick a scope if it has a remote connection
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Thanks for sharing the info!
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 9:56:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 10:29:30 PM EDT
If we are talking about "Commie Night Vision" ATN buys from those pesky Harris and L3 American NV tube manufactures.

On the other hand, ATN thermal devices would qualify as Commie.
Link Posted: 9/6/2019 10:34:14 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
If they've already submitted an affidavit to obtain a warrant/subpoena for the data, they would've preceded that with a records preservation order to ensure the existing data remains intact.

Also, this.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KitBuilder:
Originally Posted By lazyengineer:
Just FYI, you can delete the app in Android by going into your PLAY store and uninstall it. It will almost certainly still show up though in this court order.

To then delete it from your library of all Apps you've ever purchased or installed - go over to the Library section in the top of your Play button, and hit the X, to remove the App from your library. Not sure if that then remove it from the Google database that is being petitioned or not, but it might.
If they've already submitted an affidavit to obtain a warrant/subpoena for the data, they would've preceded that with a records preservation order to ensure the existing data remains intact.

Originally Posted By xjronx:
Apple and Google can remove apps from users phones remotely. If the apps are being installed outside the us and that violates itar, that's probably what will happen.
Also, this.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 12:19:17 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SkyPup:
They will be getting the name, address, and telephone number of everyone with the app
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Since Android phones are Google phones, google likely has dang near everything in the phone including contacts and historical whereabouts among other things. A search like this might well be about the broadest possible search ever done in one stop.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 1:17:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2019 1:26:11 AM EDT by MILSPEC556]
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 4:37:40 AM EDT
They're just working on a 'Find my Achmed' app
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 7:44:45 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By OmegamanX:
Yeah, I guess I don't understand the 'Big Brother' panic on this! Guys brag their stuff up on here on the goodies they've got, for all to see. I could give a rat's ass that someone knows I own an ATN item! Isn't this a bit overboard on the paranoia level, or am I missing something?
View Quote
Well, if you're an American Citizen, there's that pesky thing called the 4th Amendment - where .gov has to show probable cause that an *individual* has committed a crime, before .gov can get "persons, houses, papers, and effects". This is a fishing expedition, like they always try. Apple told them to stuff it last time, let's see what happens here, since it's just a bunch of weirdo gun people using "assault night vision scopes". As usual, some middle manager bucking for a GS promotion, asked for ALL sales/downloads, instead of the smarter "outside the US" ones. But they hate the Bill of Rights (restrictions on what .gov can do) - so it's not surprising. It looks like the app is compatible with 4 scopes, if one of them isn't NV capable and just digital, that makes this request even more of a joke.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 11:29:43 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:
Thats what you get for buying commie Night Vision.
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That’s precisely why my ATN ThOR HD 640 5x is on a Vepr Krebs AK along with my Commie Perst3 IR.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 11:35:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2019 11:53:41 AM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 11:48:00 AM EDT
No joke, the more left wing socialists find out about stuff they know nothing about, the worse their hate will be.
Link Posted: 9/7/2019 1:46:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2019 1:49:09 PM EDT by Crazy_Diamond]
I have never seen an ATN or this app, but in reading reviews on both - this isn't about ITAR and Terrorists. People that are intent on bad things at night would avoid ITAR, skip ATN, buy some Roosky gear and call it a good day.
Link Posted: 9/8/2019 3:45:42 PM EDT
Just downloaded the app even though I do not have the scope. Hope I made it onto the list in time. I hate being left out.
Link Posted: 9/8/2019 3:53:00 PM EDT
You guys act like the government doesn’t already have all your info.
Link Posted: 9/8/2019 7:58:10 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By esa17:
You guys act like the government doesn’t already have all your info.
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+1 on this!
Link Posted: 9/8/2019 9:19:32 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By esa17:
You guys act like the government doesn’t already have all your info.
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I refer you to my good friend, Ronald Reagan:

Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:31:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2019 3:32:47 AM EDT by 1paintball]
This might be more about ATN itself than about US persons, their X-sight is made in China by this company https://panjiva.com/Wuhan-Changjiang-Optics-Electron-Co-Ltd/1746226 which is a subsidiary of China South Industries (Norinco, Chinese Mil. ect...) Which means the firmware most likely is Chinese too. I wonder if their thermal scopes are as well? If the thermal cores are US tech integrated with a Chinese housing using Chinese firmware, with WiFi access to the App, that might be a problem with regards to ITAR.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 10:24:57 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 1paintball:
This might be more about ATN itself than about US persons, their X-sight is made in China by this company https://panjiva.com/Wuhan-Changjiang-Optics-Electron-Co-Ltd/1746226 which is a subsidiary of China South Industries (Norinco, Chinese Mil. ect...) Which means the firmware most likely is Chinese too. I wonder if their thermal scopes are as well? If the thermal cores are US tech integrated with a Chinese housing using Chinese firmware, with WiFi access to the App, that might be a problem with regards to ITAR.
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That’s all fine and dandy, but why would that justify such an overreach to demand all customers’ personal data? It should be a relative simple task to confirm all of the information you typed. Buy a scope, get the app, track the packets.

Unless they intend to confiscate all of them.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 12:55:00 PM EDT
I wonder if Pulsar will get wrapped up in it?

The THOR4 and Pulsar use the same camera or core as ppl on here call them, -OR- its just a giant coincidence they test virtually the same on a black body (MRTD) or NETD test. POY test is what most on here go by (pig over yonder) lmao.

I know ATN has all but said the same by doing side beside youtube images. "look at our scope compared to brand X whoa it looks the same" because it IS! whoa Mertil grab your britches.

Personally, I don't need to take video or post on Face book while through my scope.

As the above posted from what Ive read this is more company/industry focused than us the end user. However, we'll get caught up in the mess.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 1:57:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2019 1:58:22 PM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 2:09:15 PM EDT
This made the water cooler talk here at work I wasn't aware of it.

I guess FLIR was fined 30 million last year for ITAR violations. I know FLIR/armasight weapon sights were turning up in STAN along with a BUTT load of US made night vision. Most was civy grade bought here and sent overseas.

BTW Im not picking on FLIR... just saying GOV is not "just" going after ATN or whomever.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 2:29:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2019 2:30:58 PM EDT by N-VisionOptics]
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:17:30 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By N-VisionOptics:

I believe that they use the same detectors made by Ulis (now Lynred) in France but each makes it's own camera/core. It would explain the identical test result. Neither is making their cores in the US.
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Are BAE “cores” made in the USA?

If not, could we be looking at the beginning of a more widespread overreach?
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:20:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:23:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC:

No, they are not a USA company as wel.
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T’would suck something awful if ITAR spoiled our fun.

ITAR should definitely NOT infringe upon gear that is readily available internationally.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 3:36:42 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheHorta:
T'would suck something awful if ITAR spoiled our fun.
ITAR should definitely NOT infringe upon gear that is readily available internationally.
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My limited understanding is that's exactly what ITAR was designed to do.
It lets the ITAR-implementing nations control the trade/exchange of all controlled products, starting with the items imported/exported by their countries, but also going beyond (through re-sale prohibitions, end-use certificates, etc.)

They want to control international trade so the only people who possess certain technologies are the ones they allow to obtain it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 4:02:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 4:04:12 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By N-VisionOptics:

Yes, BAE cores are made in the USA by BAE Systems, Inc which is the U.S. subsidiary of BAE Systems plc. ITAR applies all the way.
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That’s actually somewhat of a relief.
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 4:04:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2019 4:06:24 PM EDT by TNVC]
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 4:15:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2019 4:43:23 PM EDT
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