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Posted: 1/14/2022 1:44:02 PM EDT
[#1]
In Artic cold, wear your canteen under your parka. Even insulated it will freeze solid.
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Posted: 1/14/2022 3:16:15 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 1/14/2022 3:17:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Also, carry the canteen or bottle upside down, so the part that freezes it at bottom, you can still turn it over and drink.
As far as multicam, I'd just hit an OD or whatever carrier with a couple spots of tan Krylon and call it good. |
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Posted: 1/14/2022 4:00:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryWell at least that insulated and Multicam. I don't know if it's big enough though for the Pathfinder canteen I want to use, doesn't look like it unfortunately. Jeez, it is slim pickins for insulated canteen covers. |
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Posted: 1/15/2022 3:18:34 AM EDT
[#5]
For what its worth very few who are issued USGI canteens actually like or use them. Arctic units are issued Nalgenes and insulated pouches for them made by Outdoor Research.
I carry a Nalgene in the field against SOP because they're the superior water carrying device. I have a titanium 550 ml cook pot that sleeves over it that I can use for cooking or drinking out of. I think its made by Toaks. |
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Posted: 1/17/2022 2:20:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For what its worth very few who are issued USGI canteens actually like or use them. Arctic units are issued Nalgenes and insulated pouches for them made by Outdoor Research. I carry a Nalgene in the field against SOP because they're the superior water carrying device. I have a titanium 550 ml cook pot that sleeves over it that I can use for cooking or drinking out of. I think its made by Toaks. The thing I don't like about the plastic Nalgenes is that you can't heat them up since they're plastic, but maybe I can find an all metal one? It's an odd thing though that we're told the Russians are such a major threat that the artic passage that will open to shipping due to global warming will make the artic the next most valuable piece of land on the planet for the super powers and yet only a few units are getting Nalgenes with insulated pouches. |
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Posted: 1/17/2022 2:24:48 PM EDT
[#7]
No covers that are camo but would an old USGI cold weather canteen work? [I swear they weigh more empty then a standard plastic one does full]
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Posted: 1/17/2022 3:44:42 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The thing I don't like about the plastic Nalgenes is that you can't heat them up since they're plastic, but maybe I can find an all metal one? It's an odd thing though that we're told the Russians are such a major threat that the artic passage that will open to shipping due to global warming will make the artic the next most valuable piece of land on the planet for the super powers and yet only a few units are getting Nalgenes with insulated pouches. |
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Posted: 1/17/2022 7:58:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The thing I don't like about the plastic Nalgenes is that you can't heat them up since they're plastic, but maybe I can find an all metal one? It's an odd thing though that we're told the Russians are such a major threat that the artic passage that will open to shipping due to global warming will make the artic the next most valuable piece of land on the planet for the super powers and yet only a few units are getting Nalgenes with insulated pouches. When push comes to shove, that will be Sig's contract. The canteen carrier too. |
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Posted: 1/18/2022 3:49:17 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When push comes to shove, that will be Sig's contract. The canteen carrier too. Ha, probably. I don't know who Sig hired for its government contracts office but they should be paying them well. |
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Posted: 1/19/2022 9:36:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Nalgenes with insulated pouches are very cheap, Multicam not so much. I use those often. Have also used a hydro flask to keep water warm longer. A bottle under the jacket is critical in extreme cold. The insulated camelbak worked pretty well for me though the mouthpiece did freeze when snowmobiling sometimes. Tucking under a jacket helped there too.
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Posted: 1/20/2022 9:46:44 AM EDT
[#12]
A KHAKI Canteen/Utility pouch will blend tolerably well with Multicam: BAE Canteen/Utility Pouch IDK if there is enough internal room to allow insulating the contents with a cylinder of GI sleeping pad foam, but there might be. Checking with a USGI Canteen/Utility pouch should tell the tale.
A possible alternative for winter use might be a number of these: GI Pilot's Flask Shop around; not specifically suggesting this particular vendor. Just stash them inside the outer coat (hopefully in pockets) near one's body, so body heat will keep them warm. Might also not be so bulky inside sleeping bag as the much bigger, and round Nalgenes. I suspect that a solid freezing of a full flask will kill the plastic cap, so, suggest partial filling in freezing temps. Should be possible to construct a carrier for 4-5 flasks more-or-less like the GI 4-pocket mag/stripper clip bandolier, but I suggest a wider neck band, due to weight. Their small size is an advantage as well as a drawback, as one will need a number of them, but they conform better to one's body than the Nalgenes. I haven't tried the above idea yet, but it might work OK for some folks, as it's an old trick to stash water bottles inside one's outer garments. Another possible alternative is the Condor Water Bottle Carrier which is available in Multicam, as well as other colors. Condor products usually have decent materials and workmanship, but some Condor products, in the past, at least had defective thread. Hopefully this has been remedied in newer products. The Condor WB carriers I have show no signs of problems with light use. YMMV. I suggest trying-out your choice(s) under benign conditions, where gear failure is not a significant problem. Disclaimer: no financial interest in anything mentioned above. |
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Posted: 1/21/2022 4:22:44 AM EDT
[#13]
I bought some Indian made stainless nalgene like single wall bottle guys were using in Afghanistan (probably local sourced) and a Maxpedition bottle holder that fit it and a bottle camp cup. The bottle isn’t the greatest quality but a stainless Nalgene would replace it. The Maxpedition covers are padded (insulated), come in a couple sizes and hold mess utensils and condiment/cocoa/coffee packs too.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 4:47:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Well, timely topic.
When I started this topic I didn't think we'd have thousands of troops about to spend their winter months in Frozen Eastern Europe. Honestly, I don't think our folks are well equipped enough yet for winter operations in places like Estonia. I think the U.S. military better take a long hard look at its gear and training for winter operations. Was watching a pretty interesting in depth discussion on the topic of winter gear and a US Army infantry guy who cross trained with the Estonians said they had better winter stuff than he did. Might be time to start dropping a dime or two on things like insulated canteen covers, new artic canteens (the only USGI purpose built ones for Artic Warfare are from like the 50's), and some real wool base layers (nothing beats wool). |
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Posted: 2/1/2022 4:29:57 PM EDT
[#15]
@KaerMorhenResident
I'm at Ft. Benning right now and just ran across this...  Attached File Attached Filehttps://www.rothco.com/product/rothco-molle-compatible-water-bottle-pouch |
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Posted: 2/2/2022 2:14:20 AM EDT
[#16]
G.I. Arctic Canteen Set
G.I. arctic canteen, cup and cover. Genuine U.S. Government issue. The U.S. Army arctic 1 qt. canteen features a stainless steel liner and aluminum shell separated by an insulating chamber of air which prevents water from freezing. Includes a heavy canvas cover with alice clips, a high impact plastic stopper, an aluminum canteen cup and rubber neck liner so lips never touch cold metal. We are calling these used, but most appear to be brand new condition.  https://www.joesarmynavyonline.com/product-p/140122.htm |
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Posted: 2/2/2022 4:28:08 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @KaerMorhenResident I'm at Ft. Benning right now and just ran across this... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/PXL_20220201_201607727_jpg-2263067.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/PXL_20220201_201626274_jpg-2263069.JPG https://www.rothco.com/product/rothco-molle-compatible-water-bottle-pouch Good find, looks like it fits the bill. Thanks. I don't mind Rothco for some things. I have their ECWCS Layer 1B Long Johns and they're nice, just wore them today as a matter of fact. I also have a fleece hat by them. |
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Posted: 2/2/2022 4:29:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: G.I. Arctic Canteen Set G.I. arctic canteen, cup and cover. Genuine U.S. Government issue. The U.S. Army arctic 1 qt. canteen features a stainless steel liner and aluminum shell separated by an insulating chamber of air which prevents water from freezing. Includes a heavy canvas cover with alice clips, a high impact plastic stopper, an aluminum canteen cup and rubber neck liner so lips never touch cold metal. We are calling these used, but most appear to be brand new condition. https://cdn3.volusion.com/ezxrc.xcwfb/v/vspfiles/photos/140122-2T.gif?v-cache=1518608818 https://www.joesarmynavyonline.com/product-p/140122.htm Yeah, those are awesome I just wish we had updated versions of them. I'd rather have a Multicam pouch and something that wasn't 1950's surplus and ALICE. |
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Posted: 2/2/2022 8:14:45 PM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 2/3/2022 12:20:28 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @KaerMorhenResident Found another... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/PXL_20220201_204234866_jpeg-2264512.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/PXL_20220201_204241572_jpeg-2264514.JPG Thanks PFran42, appreciate it a lot. |
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Posted: 2/9/2022 6:26:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Hey Brother:
You're getting a lot of advice here, and for sure lots of different ways to carry canteens. But as part of an integrated belt kit, made to fit in with a rucksack, it is my personal opinion that you just can't beat the Brit-style canteen/sustainment pouch. It sits flush with the back of the belt and creates a nice shelf for the ruck. It's not insulated but whatever. Most guys I've talked to will heat up some tea or coffee in the morning, pour it into the canteen, and that will usually slow down the freezing process. Also ditto on the upside-down technique. And the metal canteen, with large mouth. You can get MOD-issue stuff on ebay, or mid-range custom/issue at kitmonster.co.uk, or top end custom at jayjaysbrecon.co.uk. Stay away from the cheap imitation stuff. My boss is up above the artic circle right now on exercise. I will ask him about what the lads all do up there when he gets back. |
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Posted: 2/9/2022 7:19:06 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 2/9/2022 8:08:03 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks PFran42, appreciate it a lot. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: @KaerMorhenResident Found another... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/PXL_20220201_204234866_jpeg-2264512.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/PXL_20220201_204241572_jpeg-2264514.JPG Thanks PFran42, appreciate it a lot. I saw this very pouch at a store yesterday. I am not sure the amount of insulation would prevent a single-walled Nalgene from freezing after a long exposure to very cold temperature, but I am wondering if there is room in the pouch for a layer of Reflectix bubble wrap? |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 3:13:27 PM EDT
[#24]
The "updated" all-nylon carriers for the GI Arctic Canteen are seldom seen, possibly due to scant numbers, or possibly being still in use. IDK. I own both, and much prefer the nylon carrier to the cotton version.
Arctic Canteen Cup Canvas Arctic Canteen Cover Nylon Arctic Canteen Cover Pic of Freeze-Resistant Arctic Canteen Cap and Plastic Neck Liner I'd have to make a significant effort to look, but IIRC, the updated all-nylon carriers use ALICE system attachments, vice the older belt hook present on the all-cotton version. Transition versions, using ALICE clips on older all-cotton cases exist. Old-style Belt hook can be overcome by using a MOLLE-to-ALICE adapter, commonly available. ALICE hooks can be overcome by using SHORT Malice clips. The GI Arctic canteen is a double-insulated item; two independent stainless-steel walls separated by an air pocket. It's rather heavy, as a result, but reasonably effective, especially given the plastic cap and neck liner which resist freezing. It's flat enough to bring inside one's sleeping bag without undue user discomfort. Finding the "cup" for the Arctic canteen can be problematic, but the cup is quite useful, as are most nesting canteen cups. Given the difficulty/price in obtaining the GI Arctic canteen along with its' components, don't suggest making a point of doing so. I suspect collectors have driven up the price, and reduced availability. There are modern, less expensive ways of achieving the same goal. YMMV. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 3:34:27 PM EDT
[#25]
You will have a much easier time using a nalgene (and there are round canteen cups available for them).
The "kidney shaped" plastic canteens and cups are trash (narrow mouth). Most Joes only use them for a spitter, and I swear the only reason new ones are sold is so that soldiers can buy new ones for turn-in at CIF.  Why is heating the nalgene a concern if you also can't heat the current issue plastic canteens? Imitation nalgene bottles can be made of more brittle plastics, but not the name brand ones. Nalgenes are highly shatter resistant; they originated as lab ware made of lexan. |
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Posted: 2/10/2022 4:01:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @KaerMorhenResident I'm at Ft. Benning right now and just ran across this... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/PXL_20220201_201607727_jpg-2263067.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/309598/PXL_20220201_201626274_jpg-2263069.JPG https://www.rothco.com/product/rothco-molle-compatible-water-bottle-pouch Those fit 32 ounce hydroflasks perfectly. *I was insulating against heat and not cold. |
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Posted: 2/11/2022 4:38:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You will have a much easier time using a nalgene (and there are round canteen cups available for them). The "kidney shaped" plastic canteens and cups are trash (narrow mouth). Most Joes only use them for a spitter, and I swear the only reason new ones are sold is so that soldiers can buy new ones for turn-in at CIF. Why is heating the nalgene a concern if you also can't heat the current issue plastic canteens? Imitation nalgene bottles can be made of more brittle plastics, but not the name brand ones. Nalgenes are highly shatter resistant; they originated as lab ware made of lexan. Ideally I'd want a canteen that had a very wide mouth so I could bust it up if it freezes over and something that was well insulated to prevent freezing. Metal, plastic, whatever. It does seem like most the Nalgene pouches are insulated for keeping it cool, but wouldn't that also work in the reverse for keeping it insulating from the cold? They may not be insulated thickly enough though? My understanding is that the old USGI Artic Canteens had like a double body to them so there was a layer of air between the outer shell and the inner shell. I honestly, can't find anything like that in any modern canteen. The old USGI Artic Canteen pouches are all old school ALICE as well and non of them are in Multicam obviously. What kind of canteens are people using for expeditions to the North or South Pole or for summiting Everest and so forth? I've seen insulating covers for hydration bladders, but that doesn't do anything for the tubes for them and blowing through that tube to keep water out and keep it from freezing just makes bladders for me a "no-go" for cold temps. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 10:20:45 AM EDT
[#28]
Yeah last time I was up on Pen Y Fan my drinking tube froze up just like they said it would. I thought I was slick with an insulation sleeve. Now I know why they sew on bottle pouches to the waist pads.
My boss just called from the field. They are heading up to Finland and linking up with a certain unit up there. When I asked him if his canteens had frozen up yet he told me to piss off ha ha. I'll try again later. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 1:46:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah last time I was up on Pen Y Fan my drinking tube froze up just like they said it would. I thought I was slick with an insulation sleeve. Now I know why they sew on bottle pouches to the waist pads. My boss just called from the field. They are heading up to Finland and linking up with a certain unit up there. When I asked him if his canteens had frozen up yet he told me to piss off ha ha. I'll try again later. Thanks. Be interested to learn what the Finnish are using for their canteens and pouches. Same if anyone has trained with the Estonians or any else in the North of Europe let me know what they're using for canteens and pouches. |
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Posted: 2/13/2022 7:26:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Yeah for sure, my boss is on a trip to demo our packs to the Swedes, Fins, and Norgies. There are also Brits and Amis running about. So when he thaws his ass out I will try to find out.
For more info, our guy up there is Conny at coldskills.com. He runs a training camp above the artic circle where all the usual suspects go to train. So he might have info for you. He keeps a pro shop for those that show up with inadequate equipment. He's with my boss now up in Finland but maybe check out his website. |
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Posted: 2/14/2022 9:16:18 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah last time I was up on Pen Y Fan my drinking tube froze up just like they said it would. I thought I was slick with an insulation sleeve. Now I know why they sew on bottle pouches to the waist pads. My boss just called from the field. They are heading up to Finland and linking up with a certain unit up there. When I asked him if his canteens had frozen up yet he told me to piss off ha ha. I'll try again later. I used to winter camp quite a bit. One tip for drinking tubes is to blow back into them after every drink to clear the line. Nalgene was our go to. I think someone may have mentioned it already but put the bottle in upside down. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 11:16:41 AM EDT
[#32]
Well, my boss is back and looked at me like an idiot when I asked what they did with water bottles. As for the Norgies, Swedes, and Finns, they all seem to be in agreement, with wide-mouth, metal canteens. The SOP was to fill up in the morning, with preferably hot tea but at least hot water. Then placed upside down in pouches. Once canteen was about 2/3 empty, they started replacing liquid with snow. If you wait until it's empty, it takes too long to convert; better to melt a little snow at a time back into your existing water.
They take short breaks to accomplish this stuff. You stop, staying on skis, doff your pack and sit on it. The hot (or at least warm?) drinks, and snacks come out. The side and top zips are arranged to accommodate this. So yeah, keeping the thermos inside the ruck, versus canteens on the hips, and drinking this on breaks, and using belt kit sparingly seem to be the order of the day. I think maybe that's why the canteen question threw him. An insulated thermos is the preferred drink management system; the canteens are for use if/when you ditch the rucksack. Or when your thermos of hot tea is gone. This also goes with your SOP while out and about. They will ski/snow shoe into a position (an OP on the border) and stay in cold routine for about 24 hours. Then you come back to the rear and thaw out in the warming tent, which has an honest to god wood burning stove. So it's a matter of water management for a certain time until re-supply. Also being out on the move, exposed, is a lot different from laying up in the OP (duh), not to mention back in the warming tent. If your shit does freeze up, you suck snow until it thaws. I think the answer here is time management under artic conditions. You have to establish SOP for certain temps and how long you can stay out in it. Or when you say fuck it, and wait for a break in weather. They are extraordinarily hardy in regards to cold weather, but even they know when to stay hunkered down. The thin line between badass and stupid. Hope this isn't too much thread drift, but honestly I think a good thermos is your answer here. |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 12:12:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, my boss is back and looked at me like an idiot when I asked what they did with water bottles. As for the Norgies, Swedes, and Finns, they all seem to be in agreement, with wide-mouth, metal canteens. The SOP was to fill up in the morning, with preferably hot tea but at least hot water. Then placed upside down in pouches. Once canteen was about 2/3 empty, they started replacing liquid with snow. If you wait until it's empty, it takes too long to convert; better to melt a little snow at a time back into your existing water. They take short breaks to accomplish this stuff. You stop, staying on skis, doff your pack and sit on it. The hot (or at least warm?) drinks, and snacks come out. The side and top zips are arranged to accommodate this. So yeah, keeping the thermos inside the ruck, versus canteens on the hips, and drinking this on breaks, and using belt kit sparingly seem to be the order of the day. I think maybe that's why the canteen question threw him. An insulated thermos is the preferred drink management system; the canteens are for use if/when you ditch the rucksack. Or when your thermos of hot tea is gone. This also goes with your SOP while out and about. They will ski/snow shoe into a position (an OP on the border) and stay in cold routine for about 24 hours. Then you come back to the rear and thaw out in the warming tent, which has an honest to god wood burning stove. So it's a matter of water management for a certain time until re-supply. Also being out on the move, exposed, is a lot different from laying up in the OP (duh), not to mention back in the warming tent. If your shit does freeze up, you suck snow until it thaws. I think the answer here is time management under artic conditions. You have to establish SOP for certain temps and how long you can stay out in it. Or when you say fuck it, and wait for a break in weather. They are extraordinarily hardy in regards to cold weather, but even they know when to stay hunkered down. The thin line between badass and stupid. Hope this isn't too much thread drift, but honestly I think a good thermos is your answer here. Ha, it seems like a dumb question until you really think about it. Thanks, I think the insulated thermos is the way to go inside the ruck and the time management techniques you went over in your post are definitely something I need to implement. Cold weather operations really are all about time management, super critical for everything from rotating watches to taking breaks to change clothing, change out batteries that die so much more quickly in extreme cold, and just manage everything. The "non-combat" stuff starts to take a larger role and dominate more time. Cold weather is as much about survival as combat, because yeah the enemy might take you out, but the weather definitely will if you're not careful. I'm definitely improving my winter skills and it's going to be a serious focus of mine throughout this year by improving gear and then next winter really testing myself (this winter is almost over for us). |
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Posted: 3/8/2022 2:39:13 PM EDT
[#34]
What does a metal thermos weigh compared to a nalgene with insulated cover? And for a thorough comparison does the thermos keep things liquid enough longer to be worth the weight, if they do weigh more?
On general cold weather operations, the colder and shittier the weather you can operate in the more lethal you are. When the weather turns bad enough it does become more about surviving the elements than it does the enemy because they're fighting the same weather you are. The important factor is whomever loses the fight against the weather first puts themselves in a position to get destroyed by the enemy as well. If your enemy halts operations and has to deal with cold weather injuries but you haven't, then you can maneuver on them and kill them more easily. |
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Posted: 3/9/2022 10:09:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Good points. My boss said their motto now is it's not about survival but winning the fight. They are laser-focused on being harder than their opponents, so they are more lethal in any weather.
Weight considerations in artic warfare get bent to hell with all the requirements. Thus "pulks", "akios", sleds, whatever you call them are a necessity. Funny, the Swedes prefer a 85+ L pack, whereas the Norgies are partial to a 55L one. It all depends on their SOP. We made AW (artic warfare) pack models for each size. On batts, for sure that shit needs to be kept warm, and more spares may be required. A "fly fishing" or pilot's survival vest might work well here, underneath your smock or parka. Also those pilot's "whiskey flasks" would work perfectly here. On thermos's, well for sure they weigh more empty but maybe a mute point at -28 below (the average temp for my bosses little jaunt across Scandinavia). That's your decision but don't try and take them away from those guys. They do make all weights and sizes. I bought a couple of small ones up at Jay Jay's shop in Wales, which can also fit in the sustainment pouch. Not much different from a metal big mouth canteen. What I've really been dancing around is these guys have grown up in this shit and continue to train out there in it. That's the key. It doesn't matter how good your kit is if YOU aren't any good. My boss was given a complete set of Taiga cold weather kit to run around in, and he's a pretty bad motherfucker, but I think he'd be the first to tell you these guys are true artic hard men. Lots of thread drift here, for which I apologize, but for sure my goal is to also improve my cold weather skills as well. Conny invited me up there next year and I want to be prepared. |
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Posted: 3/9/2022 10:31:39 AM EDT
[#36]
Project Farm Insulated Water Bottle Test
Carrying Pilot's Flasks inside one's outer garments might be a niche application for the FLC, particularly the early versions which had a detachable/adjustable belt. Might be that a single-cell 20-rd 7.62 Nato mag pouch would fit the flasks, and interface with the FLC. |
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Posted: 3/9/2022 10:51:26 AM EDT
[#37]
I've asked for at least thirty years (because I've never found a good, solid answer) -- how do you keep IVs / Ringer's lactate warm so if you have to use it you don't drop the casualty's core temperature to cold fried chicken?
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Posted: 3/9/2022 11:02:39 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've asked for at least thirty years (because I've never found a good, solid answer) -- how do you keep IVs / Ringer's lactate warm so if you have to use it you don't drop the casualty's core temperature to cold fried chicken? Maybe a purpose-made carrier for small, flat, hard-side containers to be worn inside Medic/Corpsman's outer clothing in very cold conditions, but which could be worn/mounted most anywhere in warm temps. I wonder if something has already been designed, but not yet manufactured and issued. |
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Posted: 3/9/2022 5:27:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've asked for at least thirty years (because I've never found a good, solid answer) -- how do you keep IVs / Ringer's lactate warm so if you have to use it you don't drop the casualty's core temperature to cold fried chicken? Damn, that's a good question. If we're doing this Cold War 2.0 shit we better come up with solutions for these issues. I was watching a special awhile back and the Northern Artic sea routes they think will open up due to global temperature increase and ice melt will make them some of the most valuable sea trade routes in the world and unfortunately Russia will have a lot of presence in that area so I think going into the future we're going to have more issues with Russia not fewer. It's like that meme going around: 
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Posted: 3/9/2022 7:32:00 PM EDT
[#40]
US Mil has been focused on combat gear for more-or-less warmer climates, at least in recent past; extreme cold weather equipment has likely taken a "back-seat" in development.
Development money goes to immediate requirements, and scant money spent on other possible alternative requirements. That is as usual, unfortunately. Call me crazy, but I've been mentioning gear, especially flapped pouches, suitable in Cold-Wet climates for some time. Gotten some pushback, but I believe current issued US MIL gear is far from suitable for Cold/Wet climates, not to mention Arctic climates. YMMV. Probably best to make a separate thread about this. |
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Posted: 3/9/2022 8:13:31 PM EDT
[#41]
Ha ha yes, my friend, I remember getting shit on myself for daring to suggest that flapped pouches/holsters were still a viable option. I'm way past that nonsense these days; I have prototypes made up for several countries. And I really don't give a rat's ass anymore about what others may think.
You know I don't have an answer for that "big bag" question; I don't even know if L/R is the fluid of choice anymore. But I will try and find out! |
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Posted: 3/9/2022 8:27:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ha ha yes, my friend, I remember getting shit on myself for daring to suggest that flapped pouches/holsters were still a viable option. I'm way past that nonsense these days; I have prototypes made up for several countries. And I really don't give a rat's ass anymore about what others may think. You know I don't have an answer for that "big bag" question; I don't even know if L/R is the fluid of choice anymore. But I will try and find out! I hope our troops don't get involved an any war, much less a war for which current Mil equipment is UnSat. I've no doubt that the "usual suspects" will discover this thread and tell us how anything beyond their personal knowledge is absolutely wrong. |
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Posted: 3/9/2022 10:03:18 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've asked for at least thirty years (because I've never found a good, solid answer) -- how do you keep IVs / Ringer's lactate warm so if you have to use it you don't drop the casualty's core temperature to cold fried chicken? Not gonna call anybody wrong but myself and every medic I've asked that's spent time patrolling N/NE AFG bundled/taped MRE heaters to their fluids. Then check on the bags and swap heat packs every now and then on a short halt before making my rounds. I always wrapped mine in socks or rags to try and diffuse the heat a little more evenly. |
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Posted: 3/10/2022 12:12:54 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not gonna call anybody wrong but myself and every medic I've asked that's spent time patrolling N/NE AFG bundled/taped MRE heaters to their fluids. Then check on the bags and swap heat packs every now and then on a short halt before making my rounds. I always wrapped mine in socks or rags to try and diffuse the heat a little more evenly. Maybe Natick/Mil will listen? |
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Posted: 3/10/2022 2:21:17 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Useful idea, but only so many MRE heaters available. Maybe a combo of my idea posted above augmented by MRE heaters, as required. Maybe Natick/Mil will listen? Fair point, the heat packs also got less effective at altitude. I imagine it'd be similar in real arctic conditions. That's a head scratcher: how do you develop an insulated low-pro case for a hot water bottle/500ml bag that's wearable under clothing, bags, and LBE/armor that 1. Keeps fluids immediately accessible 2. Won't pop under load or air temp Also needs to sustain a Goldilocks temp window(depending on fluid type/blood product) for hours if not days potentially. Maybe needs to be battery(AA/CR123A) powered? Maybe it's time for Yeti to get into .mil/med supply contracts 
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Posted: 3/10/2022 9:43:50 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fair point, the heat packs also got less effective at altitude. I imagine it'd be similar in real arctic conditions. That's a head scratcher: how do you develop an insulated low-pro case for a hot water bottle/500ml bag that's wearable under clothing, bags, and LBE/armor that 1. Keeps fluids immediately accessible 2. Won't pop under load or air temp Also needs to sustain a Goldilocks temp window(depending on fluid type/blood product) for hours if not days potentially. Maybe needs to be battery(AA/CR123A) powered? Maybe it's time for Yeti to get into .mil/med supply contracts Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Useful idea, but only so many MRE heaters available. Maybe a combo of my idea posted above augmented by MRE heaters, as required. Maybe Natick/Mil will listen? Fair point, the heat packs also got less effective at altitude. I imagine it'd be similar in real arctic conditions. That's a head scratcher: how do you develop an insulated low-pro case for a hot water bottle/500ml bag that's wearable under clothing, bags, and LBE/armor that 1. Keeps fluids immediately accessible 2. Won't pop under load or air temp Also needs to sustain a Goldilocks temp window(depending on fluid type/blood product) for hours if not days potentially. Maybe needs to be battery(AA/CR123A) powered? Maybe it's time for Yeti to get into .mil/med supply contracts |
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Posted: 3/10/2022 1:57:02 PM EDT
[#47]
Maybe keeping some hand warmers 9n hand, and activating them to warm the IV bag before hooking up, but then, how long would it take to warm the bag vs. how quickly do you need to stick the guy.
If he's dehydrated/heat cat, he can wait a bit. If he's near deaths door, maybe not so much. |
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Posted: 3/10/2022 11:31:20 PM EDT
[#48]
I think trying to heat the fluid at the time it's needed wouldn't work well. Saline has a pretty high heat capacity so it takes a lot of time and heat to warm up.
I wonder if you could build a carrying case that is fairly small and light that electrically hears. I'm picturing a soft sided insulated lunch box lined with wire that is heated by current from a 9v battery. |
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Posted: 3/11/2022 2:14:58 AM EDT
[#49]
Ran this Nalgene bottle and GSI cup in the camelback pouch shown above for years. All pieces have held up well, but you better use gloves when contents of Nalgene are hot.
Bomb proof gear, but also heavy. I used to keep two of these pouches, one on each side of a T.H.E. Spec-Ops 3 day pack. Stored Nalgene and cup on one side and whatever on the other. I don't see this set up working on my PC for my needs. Just too large. Rather keep this on the 3 day so I can drop and cache when need be.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 3/13/2022 2:22:49 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've asked for at least thirty years (because I've never found a good, solid answer) -- how do you keep IVs / Ringer's lactate warm so if you have to use it you don't drop the casualty's core temperature to cold fried chicken? Maybe a few guys keep 0.5L bags in some kind of pouch just above thier base layer, but under their other layers? Use your body heat to keep it warm. |
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