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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:22:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: I've read through hundreds of threads and articles and I'm still confused. Do I need to engrave my AR15 Lower that I have done a Form 1 on? Details: Factory Anderson Lower. Did the Form 1 as an individual. Living in the state of Utah. No plans to take it out of state. Have no intention of selling. Leaving instructions to destroy it. $40 lower, no resale value. I'm asking because I found a local place that does engraving and they said I don't need to have it engraved. His argument was the serial number on the lower matches the tax stamp paperwork. There seem to be reasons / arguments / code refences / knowledge for both sides of the argument. Is there a clear cut answer? Thanks. You're making a NFA item if you do a form 1. It's my understanding that yes you are required to have it engraved. Will someone prosecute you if you don't? Who knows? Probably not, but it might cause issues later if you have a cop asking you questions about it. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:23:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Yes.
While there are a bunch of threads and other opinions out there that might indicate otherwise, I have never found anything definitive that says you do not need it. Get it engraved; it is relatively cheap and easy (since you have someone local.) |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:25:19 PM EDT
[#3]
I’ve never seen the codes or rules that would support not engraving. It’s pretty clear to me that it’s a requirement of a form 1 firearm.
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:30:08 PM EDT
[#4]
It’s right there on the Form 1 paperwork that you have to engrave it. If you’re using a finished lower all you need to add is your name (or trust name) and the city and state. This information comes from block 3b on your form 1.
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:31:48 PM EDT
[#5]
Yes, read the forms, read the actual law
ETA: your name (or trust) city and state of mfg. Specific font size (use smallest allowed) and depth |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:38:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Yes.
Some dipshits say you don't, but their reading comprehension and/or ignorance fails them |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:38:31 PM EDT
[#7]
Now,
Take this with a whole bunch of pinches of salt. I asked a couple of ATF agents. real ones... about this. They said no, they dont care as long as the serial number is there. Now, did I get my SBRs engraved? yes, I did. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:42:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, read the forms, read the actual law ETA: your name (or trust) city and state of mfg. Specific font size (use smallest allowed) and depth There is no minimum font size for anything other than serial number. Only the minimum .003” depth requirement. 
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:44:22 PM EDT
[#9]
ATF Ruling 2013-3 is pretty clearly written, and references the applicable regulations.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2013-3-adopting-identification-firearms/download |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:58:26 PM EDT
[#10]
You could engrave the bbl. instead
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Posted: 1/22/2021 4:59:09 PM EDT
[#11]
People rarely have their papers checked.
I have had my papers checked. Not a single person who checked had any inkling that engraving was required. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:09:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no minimum font size for anything other than serial number. Only the minimum .003” depth requirement. Thank you! Next engraving will require microscope to read 
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:10:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You could engrave the bbl. instead yes, but most people switch out uppers |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:31:45 PM EDT
[#14]
A while back for a brief moment in time, on paper forms, the ATF was stamping them with a red stamp that told people you had to engrave your firearm.
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:35:25 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now, Take this with a whole bunch of pinches of salt. I asked a couple of ATF agents. real ones... about this. They said no, they dont care as long as the serial number is there. Now, did I get my SBRs engraved? yes, I did. The opinions of individual ATF agents have no legal authority. As 5 different agents the same question, you are likely to get 6 different answers. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 5:57:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Yes, I believe it needs to be engraved.
Will it ever be an issue? I doubt it. Why would you destroy a perfectly serviceable SBR when you could simply transfer it to a legal heir tax free on a Form 5? What is people's phobia about passing on legal NFA firearms in their estate?  If this were the case half of the transferable MG's out there would have been destroyed as I'm sure the original registrant is deceased by now. 
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:07:52 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: yes, but most people switch out uppers I only mention it for those who want to avoid engraving the receiver of non-AR pattern rifles, or those with high $ lowers whose value would be hurt by engraving. |
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Posted: 1/22/2021 6:17:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Engrave it all day long.
Why? You paid $200 to join the cool kids club so why not make sure that no agent has a reason to screw with you? Do cheap lowers (that are 100% gauged in spec) for Form 1s. Because I don’t care about putting engraving on them. The only way I would sell them is in forced buy back because the govt wills it. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 7:13:01 PM EDT
[#19]
Y-E-S
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Posted: 1/23/2021 8:21:35 PM EDT
[#20]
OK, making arrangements to get it engraved.
I've got to go Vegas in a couple of weeks. Talked to a shop that will do it while I wait. Thanks for setting me straight. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 1:30:34 PM EDT
[#21]
CoronaDude, I have been considering Southern UT. You mean there are no places nearby that engrave in St George?
Remember you need to submit a Form 5320.20 going to another state with an SBR. One for AZ and one for NV if you take I-15. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 3:13:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: CoronaDude, I have been considering Southern UT. You mean there are no places nearby that engrave in St George? Remember you need to submit a Form 5320.20 going to another state with an SBR. One for AZ and one for NV if you take I-15. Only if the firearm is in a configuration regulated by the NFA. If the defining features are removed and the firearm no longer meets the description of a NFA item, then it is no longer under the purview of the NFA. Did you build this as an AR pistol before submitting your form 1? |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 3:41:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I only mention it for those who want to avoid engraving the receiver of non-AR pattern rifles, or those with high $ lowers whose value would be hurt by engraving. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: yes, but most people switch out uppers I only mention it for those who want to avoid engraving the receiver of non-AR pattern rifles, or those with high $ lowers whose value would be hurt by engraving. This. Want to resell that m203, and barrel separately, as non-NFA? Engrave the barrel. Who wants someone else’s Form1 engraving? |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 5:13:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Want to resell that m203, and barrel separately, as non-NFA? Engrave the barrel. Who wants someone else’s Form1 engraving? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: yes, but most people switch out uppers I only mention it for those who want to avoid engraving the receiver of non-AR pattern rifles, or those with high $ lowers whose value would be hurt by engraving. This. Want to resell that m203, and barrel separately, as non-NFA? Engrave the barrel. Who wants someone else’s Form1 engraving? Just make sure you submit a letter to the ATF updating the NFRTR. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 5:17:40 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You could engrave the bbl. instead |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 9:06:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: I'm asking because I found a local place that does engraving and they said I don't need to have it engraved. His argument was the serial number on the lower matches the tax stamp paperwork. There seem to be reasons / arguments / code refences / knowledge for both sides of the argument. Is there a clear cut answer? Thanks. The serial number on the firearm matches the paperwork but does the maker of the SBR on the firearm match the paperwork? AFAIK, you don't have to engrave the lower, but you do have to engrave (or stamp, or otherwise mark) the maker and location on the firearm. The lower usually makes the most sense for an AR15 but you could mark the upper receiver or barrel, for example. If you don't care about resale value, you can DIY the engraving. |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 12:00:38 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: CoronaDude, I have been considering Southern UT. You mean there are no places nearby that engrave in St George? Remember you need to submit a Form 5320.20 going to another state with an SBR. One for AZ and one for NV if you take I-15. The shop I found in St. George was the one that told me I didn't need to engrave it. Didn't even get a price. I'm just taking the bare, unbuilt lower with me across the 2 state lines. |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 12:12:52 AM EDT
[#28]
Best place I found is right next to the trigger on the underside of the trigger guard. Not visible in general but present if you ever need to prove it's there.
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Posted: 1/25/2021 12:19:25 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Best place I found is right next to the trigger on the underside of the trigger guard. Not visible in general but present if you ever need to prove it's there. You mean around the trigger opening? (unless maybe you have a billet lower with an integral trigger guard) I've been putting all of mine on the lip of the magwell. Out of the way and not visible if a mag is inserted. |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 11:25:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Best place I found is right next to the trigger on the underside of the trigger guard. Not visible in general but present if you ever need to prove it's there. May have to do that on my next build. My lower that I SBR’d has an integral buffer tube, so that’s where i engraved mine. With the stock collapsed it isn’t visible but if I have it extended, it’s plainly visible. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 11:02:20 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: May have to do that on my next build. My lower that I SBR'd has an integral buffer tube, so that's where i engraved mine. With the stock collapsed it isn't visible but if I have it extended, it's plainly visible. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:41:25 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Want to resell that m203, and barrel separately, as non-NFA? Engrave the barrel. Who wants someone else’s Form1 engraving? |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 4:04:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's an interesting idea. I'm pending on a F1 for a 15-22 and was wondering on where to engrave. Since it has a fixed trigger guard, I wasn't sure if engraving next to the trigger was an option. Are you saying that because you don’t know if the engraver can engrave around the trigger hole with a trigger guard in place? If that’s your concern, I know THSF can do it. I just used a Dremel on the front of my 15-22 magwell. It’s legal, and hideous...but free.
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Posted: 1/26/2021 7:28:06 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you saying that because you don't know if the engraver can engrave around the trigger hole with a trigger guard in place? If that's your concern, I know THSF can do it. I just used a Dremel on the front of my 15-22 magwell. It's legal, and hideous...but free. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's an interesting idea. I'm pending on a F1 for a 15-22 and was wondering on where to engrave. Since it has a fixed trigger guard, I wasn't sure if engraving next to the trigger was an option. I just used a Dremel on the front of my 15-22 magwell. It's legal, and hideous...but free. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 8:34:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Best place I found is right next to the trigger on the underside of the trigger guard. Not visible in general but present if you ever need to prove it's there. I prefer inside the magwell. Lucky to live by Veritias |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 8:45:38 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct; I didn't know they could do it with the fixed trigger guard. I guess I need to schedule a road trip to Matthews. Easier to take a day off and drive than to stress over shipping with the issues I've had lately. Yep...they can do it no problem. Was there today getting another engraving done. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 8:55:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Just do it. The people that say you don't really have to are the same sort that say a fringed flag in a courtroom means it's an Admiralty court and doesn't have jurisdiction to try them.
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Posted: 1/27/2021 6:55:44 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A while back for a brief moment in time, on paper forms, the ATF was stamping them with a red stamp that told people you had to engrave your firearm. This. I have the red stamp on a form 1 approved September 2019. The stamp listed the ordinance number and then summarized the requirement. It’s placed in the approved window just above the examiners signature. Why does this question persist? Eta: Form 1, section 4h “Additional description (indicate required maker’s markings to include maker’s name (as registered) city and state as each will appear on firearm) I don’t understand what is confusing about that statement. |
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Posted: 1/27/2021 8:43:50 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. I have the red stamp on a form 1 approved September 2019. The stamp listed the ordinance number and then summarized the requirement. It’s placed in the approved window just above the examiners signature. Why does this question persist? Eta: Form 1, section 4h “Additional description (indicate required maker’s markings to include maker’s name (as registered) city and state as each will appear on firearm) I don’t understand what is confusing about that statement. It says that now...but that’s a fairly recent change. Here’s one of my previous paper F1s: 
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Posted: 1/27/2021 10:13:44 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. I have the red stamp on a form 1 approved September 2019. The stamp listed the ordinance number and then summarized the requirement. It’s placed in the approved window just above the examiners signature. Why does this question persist? Eta: Form 1, section 4h “Additional description (indicate required maker’s markings to include maker’s name (as registered) city and state as each will appear on firearm) I don’t understand what is confusing about that statement. For the record.... This is my first Form 1. Received Tax Stamp - January 2021. No Red Stamp and Box 4 h is blank. |
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Posted: 1/27/2021 10:56:10 PM EDT
[#41]
Even if it were not required, it's a good idea. Imagine a cop asking if your SBR is legal. Cops don't exactly know every detail of every law ever written. If it's not engraved, you now have to explain why it's not. Why put yourself in that situation?
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Posted: 1/28/2021 12:35:05 AM EDT
[#42]
Side question; how are you guys shipping your stripped lowers out to be engraved? Does USPS allow? UPS Store?
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Posted: 1/28/2021 1:04:39 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Side question; how are you guys shipping your stripped lowers out to be engraved? Does USPS allow? UPS Store? Technically it would have to ship via private carrier, so UPS or FEDEX. You can't just take it to a UPS Store or Fedex/Kinkos though. Each company has specific restrictions and instructions on either dropping off the item or having it picked up. |
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Posted: 1/28/2021 1:21:23 AM EDT
[#44]
Yes.
BigWaylon is the resident expert on NFA stuff. Dude has forgotten more than most will ever know. He's talked about this in many posts. The answer as of currently is Yes. |
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