User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 4/15/2018 11:00:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Just used my PTS233 on my first late night hunt using thermal. Fun as hell, but I found myself limited as far as identification goes. I was against the tree line looking about 300 yards across trying to find pigs to shoot. I'm about 90% sure I ended up seeing a couple coyotes. Problem is there were cows to my left, so I wanted to make for damn sure I wasn't going to be popping a calf. I have a setup with a PVS 30 that I wish I would have brought, but it's heavy and I didn't want to be toting that around. So question is: How do you guys identify what you're looking at with thermal? How the animal moves? I understand a better thermal scope would help, but this is what I'm working with for now. Any info greatly appreciated. Regardless of what thermal you use, you must get closer and closer until you can CLEARLY ID. Never shoot on how something moves itself but a combination of everything including getting close enough to see finite details of what the target really is. When in doubt as obviously you have admirably indicated, you could not ID and cannot shoot. Yes the PVS-30 would definitely give you a ton more of PID over most any thermal out there hands down. But of course thermal sees more etc, etc and IMHO thermal also gives many a false sense of security at night. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 12:37:10 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This IS always the problem with thermal and some shoot things they think are the critter they see through their thermal. HERE is another example of hunter who spoke the truth about his ID woes. Regardless of what thermal you use, you must get closer and closer until you can CLEARLY ID. Never shoot on how something moves itself but a combination of everything including getting close enough to see finite details of what the target really is. When in doubt as obviously you have admirably indicated, you could not ID and cannot shoot. Yes the PVS-30 would definitely give you a ton more of PID over most any thermal out there hands down. But of course thermal sees more etc, etc and IMHO thermal also gives many a false sense of security at night. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 7:15:48 AM EDT
[#3]
I appreciate the info. This has definitely given me something to think about. In that particular instance, it probably would have been better to use the PTS233 as a monocular and use the PVS30 for PID and shot. Whereas, later in the night when I went into the woods, the thermal as a scope would have been just fine. I sure do hate the thought of taking both guns with their respective set ups, but it seems like with the different type of hunting environments I can be in on one given night, that just may have to be the solution.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 11:07:20 AM EDT
[#4]
Detect with thermal. Navigate closer with NV or a dim red light pointed only at your feet. Get close enough that you can positively ID before shooting. Having 640 rez instead of 320 will greatly improve the distance at which you can do this. One of the places I hunt is close enough to town that a coyote could conceivably be someone's puppers.
If you study behavioral cues, you will be able to spot the difference between fido and wylie. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 11:48:34 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting, could you elaborate on the part in red? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: This IS always the problem with thermal and some shoot things they think are the critter they see through their thermal. HERE is another example of hunter who spoke the truth about his ID woes. Regardless of what thermal you use, you must get closer and closer until you can CLEARLY ID. Never shoot on how something moves itself but a combination of everything including getting close enough to see finite details of what the target really is. When in doubt as obviously you have admirably indicated, you could not ID and cannot shoot. Yes the PVS-30 would definitely give you a ton more of PID over most any thermal out there hands down. But of course thermal sees more etc, etc and IMHO thermal also gives many a false sense of security at night. - Woman fired shot using thermal night vision scope after mistaking man for hog - Hunter shoots bobcat by mistake using thermal - While this one not noted if the hunter was using a NV device but just an example the dangers hunting at night in general. https://isthmus.com/news/news/coyote-hunter-faces-criminal-charges-for-shooting-dogs/ - I have been contacted from another hunter in Florida a few years ago who also shot a bob cat at approx. 100 yards away which he thought was a Yote sitting on his hinds staring at him. This hunter was using a Mil-Spec FLIR T-70. I will say this, (may get beat up from a "few" around here, but that's ok...). I have been using this thing called NV since the early 90's, been hunting seriously since early 2000's and don't call myself a pro hunter by any means. In all those years when I^2 devices where the norm, such as the D series NV scopes, Raptors, Aquilla's, etc., I've NEVER heard of one mistaken ID shooting incident vs. what we are seeing now since thermal has come on the scene with all the fancy shoot videos etc. with half of them not even sure if the Yote is some neighbors dog or a stationary hog some ranchers calf. This is a fact so many want to shove under the rug, but I'm seeing and hearing the stories more and more. My guess is, and I hate to say it, we are going to see more and more of this with thermal. Many hunters do not know the capabilities of their thermal devices and some are pulling the trigger without 100% PID! I can probably say with confidence that 10-20% of hunters out there each and every night pull the trigger with their thermal and do not have that 100% ID, they simply use shape and so-called mannerisms but they do not clearly see a definitive target. I sure hope I'm wrong, but the trends are telling me I'm not. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 12:34:27 PM EDT
[#6]
Use a scope with higher resolution and a larger lens.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 12:41:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Continuing maybe a bit off topic, but..
I wouldn't be the slightest surprised seeing an ATN thermal scope with an "AI" that tells you what it think it's seeing. Hopefully the costs for good fusion scopes start coming down. LWIR + a narrow FOV high mag NIR/SWIR should do the job. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 12:53:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
with half of them not even sure if the Yote is some neighbors dog or a stationary hog some ranchers calf. This is a fact so many want to shove under the rug, but I'm seeing and hearing the stories more and more. My guess is, and I hate to say it, we are going to see more and more of this with thermal. Many hunters do not know the capabilities of their thermal devices and some are pulling the trigger without 100% PID! I can probably say with confidence that 10-20% of hunters out there each and every night pull the trigger with their thermal and do not have that 100% ID, they simply use shape and so-called mannerisms but they do not clearly see a definitive target. I sure hope I'm wrong, but the trends are telling me I'm not. Now my damn PTS233 doesn't seem like the bees knees anymore. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 1:12:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Man it’s a small entry level scope, and a good one at that. Don’t expect it to do things it cant do. I’m curious to see how your hunting goes with the clip on nv. I tried it but just simply couldn’t track runners like I can with thermal. They don’t pop.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 1:37:12 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This IS always the problem with thermal and some shoot things they think are the critter they see through their thermal. HERE is another example of hunter who spoke the truth about his ID woes. Regardless of what thermal you use, you must get closer and closer until you can CLEARLY ID. Never shoot on how something moves itself but a combination of everything including getting close enough to see finite details of what the target really is. When in doubt as obviously you have admirably indicated, you could not ID and cannot shoot. Yes the PVS-30 would definitely give you a ton more of PID over most any thermal out there hands down. But of course thermal sees more etc, etc and IMHO thermal also gives many a false sense of security at night. If we were to blast an optic based on 1-3 accidents reported, we better stop Day hunting. Seems there are always accidents on the first day of a popular hunting season. No thermal to blame there. Just daylight and clear day scopes. Edit: as for the OP, I see it that with even good I2, you’d miss spotting as many coyotes as you end missing identifying with thermal from having to call them in closer than what the PVS30 can see. Ideally you’d have the thermal to spot handheld and the 30 weapon mounted. The 320 core with minimal magnification is not going to be a long range scope, no matter how much hype the Boson core gets. But an old Gen 2 PVS-14 wouldn’t be either, and that’s a similar price/magnification/resolution I2 optic. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 1:48:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Man it’s a small entry level scope, and a good one at that. Don’t expect it to do things it cant do. I’m curious to see how your hunting goes with the clip on nv. I tried it but just simply couldn’t track runners like I can with thermal. They don’t pop. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 1:49:25 PM EDT
[#12]
I personally scan with thermal and shoot with night vision
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 4:27:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Coyotes? I can see that. Sounders of hogs? I had a d740 and it was tough.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 6:04:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many of your I2 hunts can you say definetivey, 100% that nobody could be in the background of your target? If 100% is the required minimum to shoot, nobody would shoot at all at night. There is simply no way to be 100% sure. I’d say it’s near impossible to be 100% sure in the day as well, especially when hunting and not on a structured range. We’ve all seen ricochets and strange things happen and to be perfectly sure there is no danger simply doesn’t happen. Any shootings with limited vision (I2 or thermal) is added danger. If we were to blast an optic based on 1-3 accidents reported, we better stop Day hunting. Seems there are always accidents on the first day of a popular hunting season. No thermal to blame there. Just daylight and clear day scopes. Edit: as for the OP, I see it that with even good I2, you’d miss spotting as many coyotes as you end missing identifying with thermal from having to call them in closer than what the PVS30 can see. Ideally you’d have the thermal to spot handheld and the 30 weapon mounted. The 320 core with minimal magnification is not going to be a long range scope, no matter how much hype the Boson core gets. But an old Gen 2 PVS-14 wouldn’t be either, and that’s a similar price/magnification/resolution I2 optic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: This IS always the problem with thermal and some shoot things they think are the critter they see through their thermal. HERE is another example of hunter who spoke the truth about his ID woes. Regardless of what thermal you use, you must get closer and closer until you can CLEARLY ID. Never shoot on how something moves itself but a combination of everything including getting close enough to see finite details of what the target really is. When in doubt as obviously you have admirably indicated, you could not ID and cannot shoot. Yes the PVS-30 would definitely give you a ton more of PID over most any thermal out there hands down. But of course thermal sees more etc, etc and IMHO thermal also gives many a false sense of security at night. If we were to blast an optic based on 1-3 accidents reported, we better stop Day hunting. Seems there are always accidents on the first day of a popular hunting season. No thermal to blame there. Just daylight and clear day scopes. Edit: as for the OP, I see it that with even good I2, you’d miss spotting as many coyotes as you end missing identifying with thermal from having to call them in closer than what the PVS30 can see. Ideally you’d have the thermal to spot handheld and the 30 weapon mounted. The 320 core with minimal magnification is not going to be a long range scope, no matter how much hype the Boson core gets. But an old Gen 2 PVS-14 wouldn’t be either, and that’s a similar price/magnification/resolution I2 optic. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 10:47:58 PM EDT
[#15]
I use my IR Patrol almost every night in summer and very often in winter, right here at home. The view from the deck is 100-ish yards of field that ends in woods and brush.
It can be DANG hard to positively ID any animal that isn't standing in a "Deer-Like" or "Racoon-Like" or Coyote-Like" pose. When they are curled up on the cut field here, especially when they are at an odd angle with their head low, one often looks like another. Quite often, they are all but invisible in the PVS-14, regardless whether I illuminate them (except for their eyes glowing). If I use the magnifier on the -14, it is a different story. But when you have decided that IDing animals is tough, haul your thermal to a construction site. Any place where men are at work, moving around, and where they are partly hidden from view. Learn to recognize people and parts of people when they aren't posing in "Person-Like" silhouette. Because if you see people when you are hunting at night, bits of people is all you should expect to see, because they are likely doing what you are, and of all the stuff in range, they are what you want the least to shoot. Someone commented above that they expect AI to step in and do some IDing in thermals. I read years ago (make that "decades ago"), a research paper, from a university in Texas I think, in which simple PIR alarm sensors were successfully used for identifying animals by type. Pretty impressive results from what amounts to a 1 pixel thermal viewer (or 2 or 4 pixels, maybe, depending on how you figure it). |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2018 10:54:25 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use my IR Patrol almost every night in summer and very often in winter, right here at home. The view from the deck is 100-ish yards of field that ends in woods and brush. It can be DANG hard to positively ID any animal that isn't standing in a "Deer-Like" or "Racoon-Like" or Coyote-Like" pose. When they are curled up on the cut field here, especially when they are at an odd angle with their head low, one often looks like another. Quite often, they are all but invisible in the PVS-14, regardless whether I illuminate them (except for their eyes glowing). If I use the magnifier on the -14, it is a different story. But when you have decided that IDing animals is tough, haul your thermal to a construction site. Any place where men are at work, moving around, and where they are partly hidden from view. Learn to recognize people and parts of people when they aren't posing in "Person-Like" silhouette. Because if you see people when you are hunting at night, bits of people is all you should expect to see, because they are likely doing what you are, and of all the stuff in range, they are what you want the least to shoot. Someone commented above that they expect AI to step in and do some IDing in thermals. I read years ago (make that "decades ago"), a research paper, from a university in Texas I think, in which simple PIR alarm sensors were successfully used for identifying animals by type. Pretty impressive results from what amounts to a 1 pixel thermal viewer (or 2 or 4 pixels, maybe, depending on how you figure it). |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/17/2018 1:53:38 PM EDT
[#17]
REF: "With the magnifier attached (3x I assume?) to your PVS-14, at what range are you comfortably ID'ing critters? "
I have no clear views here beyond 100 yards. So that is my answer even though I know that the larger animals would be identifiable by species further. Distinguishing my neighbor's dog from a coyote at ANY distance would be a job for white light as far as I am concerned. As I said, I don't hunt them anyway, and so have never shot the wrong thing. BUT, When the animal is in the brush or woods at the same or less distance, I can ID them only when they show their distinctive features in THERMAL,and that often takes them quite a while to get around to. When they don't, I never figure them out. When the animals are in the woods and I am using 3X mag on PVS-14 it's usually hopeless to ID them unless it's a pretty bright night, because the woods and brush almost never fail to diminish the already poor contrast between animal and brush by reflecting my illumination. The closer the brush is to me, the worse that is, of course. The Good Lord knew how to hide the animals in the visible spectrum and well into the IR when they are in the NW Oregon woods. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/22/2018 4:19:06 PM EDT
[#18]
Got out this weekend and used the PTS233 as a scanner and PVS-30 for identification and shot. It really worked well. Couple of hogs met their demise bc of this combo. 2 things I did notice: thermal is badass at detection (obviously). It really helped not having to worry about cows in this particular spot. If something lit up, it was something of interest. The other thing I noticed is after shooting at a group of pigs with the PVS-30, it is a little difficult to track them when they are running. With the thermal, it is much easier to shoot when they are on the run. But to conclude, both technologies are damn near unstoppable when used correctly. Very pleased with both.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/6/2018 12:44:07 AM EDT
[#19]
Best one that I heard was the guy that shot a raccoon multiple times but it didn't fall out of the tree.
He went and got help. Found out that he shot the neighboring camp's transformer. Oops. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/6/2018 12:13:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Best one that I heard was the guy that shot a raccoon multiple times but it didn't fall out of the tree. He went and got help. Found out that he shot the neighboring camp's transformer. Oops. 
Sounds like he is pretty inexperienced with a TWS and a firearm. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/6/2018 12:28:09 PM EDT
[#21]
I’ve always been a staunch believer in thermal is all you need and have fought that point pretty strongly. However, I have only used very nice thermals that have cost a premium. I recently used a middle of the road and a also much lower price point thermal...
I can strongly agree that not every thermal is equal and NV can play a major role in the PID process. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/6/2018 12:48:17 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Got out this weekend and used the PTS233 as a scanner and PVS-30 for identification and shot. It really worked well. Couple of hogs met their demise bc of this combo. 2 things I did notice: thermal is badass at detection (obviously). It really helped not having to worry about cows in this particular spot. If something lit up, it was something of interest. The other thing I noticed is after shooting at a group of pigs with the PVS-30, it is a little difficult to track them when they are running. With the thermal, it is much easier to shoot when they are on the run. But to conclude, both technologies are damn near unstoppable when used correctly. Very pleased with both. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/6/2018 1:47:05 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’ve always been a staunch believer in thermal is all you need and have fought that point pretty strongly. However, I have only used very nice thermals that have cost a premium. I recently used a middle of the road and a also much lower price point thermal... I can strongly agree that not every thermal is equal and NV can play a major role in the PID process. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/6/2018 2:39:07 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: See that’s the ass kicker; you’ll get frustrated killing one or two out of a sounder when you shoulda killed 6. You need a bigger thermal ese. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/6/2018 7:14:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Shit man, you ain't lying. I'm trying to decide what I should go with. Or if I'm going to buy once, I'd rather cry over Flir's 640 12 micron unit if they'll ever release. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
