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[Last Edit: rightwingnut]
[#2]
Originally Posted By IsotopeGear:
I saw this real world experience post over on StoppingPower.net. A LEO discusses low recoil buck during a shoot out at distance (~40 yards) and gives perspective based on other shootings. Interesting read for those who might ever concider using these LR Buck rounds at these longer distances. Excerpt: " I hope the shooters on our forum don't assume that reduced recoil and tight patterns at long distances somehow equates to fight-stopping effectiveness at those distances." Link to forum post View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By IsotopeGear:
I saw this real world experience post over on StoppingPower.net. A LEO discusses low recoil buck during a shoot out at distance (~40 yards) and gives perspective based on other shootings. Interesting read for those who might ever concider using these LR Buck rounds at these longer distances. Excerpt: " I hope the shooters on our forum don't assume that reduced recoil and tight patterns at long distances somehow equates to fight-stopping effectiveness at those distances." Link to forum post Posted - October 07 2012 : 8:15:09 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thx for the info: ...About a month ago, a local police agency here got into a gunfight with a murder suspect. Two of the officers involved had 870 shotguns loaded with issued Federal LE-132 9-pellet low-recoil 00-buck. ...The fight occured at about 35 to 40 yards distance. ... However, when the paramedics peeled the suspect's cheap leather coat off of him, numerous 00-buck pellets fell out of the leather material onto the floor of the ambulance. Let that sink in a couple seconds. The low-recoil buckshot had failed to fully penetrate the suspect's outer garment, a leather coat, and the pellets were embedded and stuck in the material. I don't think that any of us would be overly surprized by this. I just hope our younger defensive shooters don't really believe that, because low-recoil Flite Control buck patterns amazingly well at 40 yards, it will work well on a live target at 40 yards...or more. Penetration in gel, in a sterile lab environment, doesn't have a one-to-one relationship with penetration in people...especially at extended distances. ... As you can imagine, most of our buckshot shootings are at across-a-large-room distances, or at the distance of a car-length, more or less. The low-recoil buckshot ammo worked superbly there.... ...Still, though, you can for sure say that the full-power buck is more dangerous at extended distances than the reduced recoil variety. A good point: The shotgun enables a skilled defensive shooter to convincingly dominate an adversary at what would normally be considered pistol-fighting distances, and perhaps a bit beyond. That's the thing I keep in mind about a fighting shotgun. I happen to agree with those detractors who sneer that a shotgun is a "niche" or "special purpose" weapon. They're right...it's just that those "niches" and "special purposes" keep cropping up again and again with uncomfortable regularity. At least in the real world. |
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Scepticism is...to purify the mind of prejudice & render it the more apt to believe & act wisely. G Santayana "
"...into eatin bananas from a dude's asshole...pinch & peel that sucker!" Kurg |
[Last Edit: mbell]
[#3]
Video looking at Federal Flight Control and the effects of a choke on the function of this particular round. The shots are taken at 7 and 9 yards with 00Buck and #1Buck. We looked at precision of this load compared to a rifle at close range.
http://youtu.be/viZTFqP92PQ |
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I'm a member alright, and by member I mean...
FL, USA
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[Last Edit: rightwingnut]
[#4]
Originally Posted By mbell:
Video looking at Federal Flight Control and the effects of a choke on the function of this particular round. The shots are taken at 7 and 9 yards with 00Buck and #1Buck. We looked at precision of this load compared to a rifle at close range. http://youtu.be/viZTFqP92PQ View Quote looks like the cylinder bore barrel shot the flite control tigher than the modified. Is that you vid? Nice production. |
"Most people CANNOT think...worse, they do not know that they cannot think." Steph M
"Scepticism is...to purify the mind of prejudice & render it the more apt to believe & act wisely." G Santayana |
[#5]
Yes, the lack of any choke, i.e. cylinder bore was tighter. Any restriction "grabs" the flight control wad and slows it down prematurely causing it to release the shot sooner than a cylinder bore. I bought a cylinder choke tube for the Benelli M4 so I could test it with no choke. I was able to place the shot more accurately with the Benelli, probably because the sights are more like what I am use to. I plan on a follow up video showing the results of changing the choke tube in the M4. I hope what I find is a accurately placed shot with a "one hole" group at 9 yards.
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[#7]
Do you have removable chokes on your 20" barrel. I would like to see the same distances with the same gun with a cylinder choke as opposed to the improved cylinder choke. I bet the groups would be even tighter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viZTFqP92PQ |
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[Last Edit: MS556]
[#8]
Originally Posted By mbell:
Do you have removable chokes on your 20" barrel. I would like to see the same distances with the same gun with a cylinder choke as opposed to the improved cylinder choke. I bet the groups would be even tighter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viZTFqP92PQ View Quote Sorry for the very late reply. No, it is a fixed choke. I'm not sure there is much need to be tighter than this! Perhaps for the 50 yard shot only. I have another shotgun with a 25" pure straight cylinder barrel (no choke restriction at all), a Browning Light 12 quail gun. I can test, but question whether the difference would be worth the expenditure of ammo, given how tight these groups are |
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[#9]
Some very interesting ballistic gel test done by Brass Fetcher
Very interesting test I found while searching out ammo 10% gel http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/12%20Gauge%20Shotgun/12%20Gauge%20shotgun%2010%20percent%20gelatin%20results.pdf 20% gel http://www.brassfetcher.com/Shotguns/12%20Gauge%20Shotgun/12%20gauge%20shotgun%2020%20percent%20gelatin%20results.pdf from an amazing resource of information at http://www.brassfetcher.com/index.html It really has me wondering about supposed "over penetration" of slugs. Anything "miss" from any bullet that meets the fbi standard will penetrate a lot of walls but what doesn't seem to be addressed well or maybe I just can't find it it over penetration of walls after a "soft" target has been hit. You drop a intruder coming to do you harm at 10', how many walls will it penetrate after that? |
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[#10]
Several I would imagine. I know from personal experience that a slug hitting a deer at about 50yds from the side will go clear through the deer and still bury itself deep in the ground on the other side. I've also seen it ricochet pretty severely as well after passing through the body at that distance! Sabots are especially bad about it!
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[#11]
Anybody tried the 3.5" buck shot loads? I've been curious about and 835 into an HD gun. The loads I've seen are typically double the amount of shot from a 2.75". So 18 pellets vs 9. Pretty sure they're on the punishing side.
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Better to be a complete ass, than a half ass.
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[Last Edit: MS556]
[#12]
Originally Posted By sixnine:
Anybody tried the 3.5" buck shot loads? I've been curious about and 835 into an HD gun. The loads I've seen are typically double the amount of shot from a 2.75". So 18 pellets vs 9. Pretty sure they're on the punishing side. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile View Quote Unless it has a Flight Control or Versatite shot cup/wad to keep the pattern uber tight (say 10-12 inches at 50 yards, that's twice as many stray pellets to have legal liability for. Something to think about. I think I might want to double tap instead. I have not shot 3.5" buckshot loads. I have shot 3" magnum loads and none of them patterned worth a &%@# in any of my 3" guns. Also none of them had Flight Control type shot cups, either. I'm not recoil shy. That is not the issue. Pattern density and accountability for pellets downrange is. |
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[#13]
How about ammo for short barrels? I am SBSing a Mossberg5500 Mk II that I used for both small game and deer way back when. Barrel will be about 13" - 2 3/4 non-magnum smooth bore at the moment, but I can get rifled or magnum while it is being processed (though I figure more power just means a lot of flame from wasted gun-powder burning late). I have copper and lead slugs and some OO buckshot. But they make better rounds for snubby revolvers and SBRs, are there any made for shorty shotguns? Thanks.
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[#14]
RIO now has a #1 buck offering, 9 pellets.
http://www.luckygunner.com/20-ga-2-3-4-1-buck-9pellet-rio-royal-25-rounds If you wanna update the original. |
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[Last Edit: Theblakester]
[#15]
Hornady varmint express #4 buckshot with versatite wad 24 pellets at 1350 fps.
I live in an apartment. Over penetration is an issue for me morally, but I understand birdshot is for birds. Yes this ammo is marketed as a varmint round, but the research I've done on it leads me to believe that it is an adequate show stopper at home defense distances. My longest shot is less than 12 yards. This round uses Hornady's Versatite wad (same concept as federal' flight control wad keeping the pattern very tight at HD distances). These shells are actually about 1/10 of an inch shorter than a standard 2 3/4" shell. This allows me to load an extra round in the magazine tube in my 20" mossberg 500. Makin it an 8+1, rather than 7+1. Advertised velocity is slightly higher than most #4 buckshot rounds, though I haven't found any videos of it being chronographed. Fwiw, my side saddle is loaded with Hornady TAP FPD OO' buckshot. https://youtu.be/3VTk_7884r8 Long Range Shotgun Test! 12 Gauge #4 Buck - Hornady Varmint Express Gel test at various distances with this ammo showing average penetration of 15" at 5 yds and avg of 12" penetration at 20 yards. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/100208581/hornady-varmint-express-buckshot-ammunition-12-gauge-2-3-4-4-buckshot-24-pellets-box-of-10# |
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[#16]
A couple of points:
1. Be careful with the reduced recoil rounds. Local Police Department shot a guy with them and there was a serious lack of stopping power / penetration. I don't remember the brand of shell but they are now running full power loads. 2. On short barrels, my Mossberg 590A1 and Benelli M1 both keep all pellets on a B27 target out to 25 yards with run of the mill S&B 00 buck. I can hit head shots all day at 50 yards with slugs out of both of them. Both are factory non adjustable chokes, cylinder bore I think. |
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[#17]
any info out there about mini shells?
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[#18]
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[#19]
Glad I found this. I took an 870 to the range tonight and shot some 12 pellet S&B, 9 pellet Black Aces, 9 pellet Wolf, and was thinking about how much more they kicked than the low recoil 00 I shoot at work. Interesting info about the low recoil stuff not all penetrating the leather jacket. I think with the increased use of rifles we are going to see less information coming out too due to many turning shotguns into less lethal.
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A closed mouth gathers no foot.
Official Site Nickname, given by NorCal - "Smack" |
[Last Edit: MS556]
[#20]
Originally Posted By CA_TX-Cop: Glad I found this. I took an 870 to the range tonight and shot some 12 pellet S&B, 9 pellet Black Aces, 9 pellet Wolf, and was thinking about how much more they kicked than the low recoil 00 I shoot at work. Interesting info about the low recoil stuff not all penetrating the leather jacket. I think with the increased use of rifles we are going to see less information coming out too due to many turning shotguns into less lethal. View Quote Just use the full power 1325 fps Federal FliteControl 9 pellet 00B. The heavier recoil will not be noticed during an actual engagement. |
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[#21]
Originally Posted By CA_TX-Cop: Glad I found this. I took an 870 to the range tonight and shot some 12 pellet S&B, 9 pellet Black Aces, 9 pellet Wolf, and was thinking about how much more they kicked than the low recoil 00 I shoot at work. Interesting info about the low recoil stuff not all penetrating the leather jacket. I think with the increased use of rifles we are going to see less information coming out too due to many turning shotguns into less lethal. View Quote I find it hard to believe that claim. Even reduced recoil pellets should still be traveling over 1100 FPS at 40 yards. |
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[#22]
Originally Posted By togadelic: any info out there about mini shells? View Quote WOW, back from the dead!! Lucky Gunner did a review on the mini shells for self defence ammo, it's on YT. Also, anyone who wants the 8 pellet 00Buck from Federal, check out Recoil Gunworks. I have no connection with them except as a customer, and yes, I got mine!! Lol. |
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FJS and FJB!
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[#23]
Originally Posted By new_frontier13: I find it hard to believe that claim. Even reduced recoil pellets should still be traveling over 1100 FPS at 40 yards. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By new_frontier13: Originally Posted By CA_TX-Cop: Glad I found this. I took an 870 to the range tonight and shot some 12 pellet S&B, 9 pellet Black Aces, 9 pellet Wolf, and was thinking about how much more they kicked than the low recoil 00 I shoot at work. Interesting info about the low recoil stuff not all penetrating the leather jacket. I think with the increased use of rifles we are going to see less information coming out too due to many turning shotguns into less lethal. I find it hard to believe that claim. Even reduced recoil pellets should still be traveling over 1100 FPS at 40 yards. Lol, where do you come up with this stuff? How would you know? How many shotgun loads have you chronied? As someone who has velocity tested plenty, there are many "full power" buckshot loads thar do 1100fps from the muzzle of 18" barrel shotguns, nevermind what they'd be doing at 40 yards.... Remember, box velocities are usually taken from a 28" or 30" test barrel. |
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