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Posted: 5/8/2020 7:34:10 PM EDT
Which model of the SA58 is closest to the ones used in the Rhodesian bush wars? Or would it be better to build off of a kit?
Please forgive my ignorance when it comes to these battle rifles, I'm a total noob with FAL's, but Forgotten weapons and Vickers videos have caught my interest.
Link Posted: 5/8/2020 11:59:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Rhodesians used a wide variety of FAL variants.  Is there a specific variant you're trying to mimic?

The most common were South African R1 rifles made by LIW and later FN-contract 50.00 rifles made originally for the SADF, but they had a number of others, including Portuguese m/962, British L1A1, Australian L1A1, Indian 1A1, German G-1, ANC 50.64, R1s converted to 50.61 configuration, other 50.64 and 50.61 rifles, possibly a small number of Belgian/Force Publique M1 and M2 (and others impounded when Katangese forces withdrew into the Federation in 1963), early FN SADF contract lugged-barrel, and a number of others.

Also, some of the lugged barrels were threaded and fitted with combo devices.  Most rifles that were equipped with a combo device, but did not come with a grenade sight gas plug, had their standard one replaced by a grenade sight gas plug.
Link Posted: 5/9/2020 12:27:34 AM EDT
[#2]
Lots of good info, thank you! I’m not after a specific make or model I suppose, just one that was common back then and some what easy to acquire  today.
Link Posted: 5/9/2020 1:28:34 AM EDT
[#3]
If you got one of the IMBEL parts kits floating around, got on the waitlist for a DSA R1 receiver, got a South African R1 stock (they used the long version of the Type D), got a grenade sight gas plug, made the cuts in the recoil plate to the Type 2 style or replaced the lower with a Type 2, and got either one of the two R1-correct carry handles (or, better, find a messed up carry handle or wire and cut off the ring portion, and install that only), and also get some non-bipod plastic handguards if the IMBEL kit comes with bipod-cut handguards (which is more typical), and did a build, you'd have something fairly close to one of the most common types of rifles used by the Rhodesians.

The closest complete rifle from DSA would be a Type 1 21" fixed-stock rifle with plastic stock and provision for a carry handle.  Replace the handguards with non-bipod cut and the gas plug with the grenade sight type, and cut off the carry handle leaving the ring in place (maybe also replace the stock with the SA-type), and you'd be in the ballpark, looks-wise.

Most Rhodesian FALs of any variant were 21" threaded barrel with combo device, fixed-stock rifles, with all-steel construction, and a grenade sight gas plug.  The details can vary considerably from there, but that's a decent starting-point.  Type C and Type D stocks, long and standard length, predominate.
Link Posted: 5/9/2020 3:20:40 PM EDT
[#4]
Wow that pretty much answered all my questions and then some. Thank you for all the insight and information!
Link Posted: 5/27/2020 9:58:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If you got one of the IMBEL parts kits floating around, got on the waitlist for a DSA R1 receiver, got a South African R1 stock (they used the long version of the Type D), got a grenade sight gas plug, made the cuts in the recoil plate to the Type 2 style or replaced the lower with a Type 2, and got either one of the two R1-correct carry handles (or, better, find a messed up carry handle or wire and cut off the ring portion, and install that only), and also get some non-bipod plastic handguards if the IMBEL kit comes with bipod-cut handguards (which is more typical), and did a build, you'd have something fairly close to one of the most common types of rifles used by the Rhodesians.

The closest complete rifle from DSA would be a Type 1 21" fixed-stock rifle with plastic stock and provision for a carry handle.  Replace the handguards with non-bipod cut and the gas plug with the grenade sight type, and cut off the carry handle leaving the ring in place (maybe also replace the stock with the SA-type), and you'd be in the ballpark, looks-wise.

Most Rhodesian FALs of any variant were 21" threaded barrel with combo device, fixed-stock rifles, with all-steel construction, and a grenade sight gas plug.  The details can vary considerably from there, but that's a decent starting-point.  Type C and Type D stocks, long and standard length, predominate.
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Out of curiousity, is that shorter CA legal build you post all the time close to anything they had? I like the idea of the 16-18in barrel with a solid stock instead of the para stock. I haven't had the luxury of firing a para FAL but I remember hating it on an AK I shot once upon a time.
Link Posted: 5/28/2020 1:32:05 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Out of curiousity, is that shorter CA legal build you post all the time close to anything they had? I like the idea of the 16-18in barrel with a solid stock instead of the para stock. I haven't had the luxury of firing a para FAL but I remember hating it on an AK I shot once upon a time.
View Quote



FN apparently did offer the shorter barrels with the fixed stock.  Not sure if they also called those Model 50.00 rifles or not.  I've seen one factory FN that was imported to the U.S. in the 1980s with a 436mm barrel (~17.17").  FN offered their short barrel (458mm, or 18.03"), super short barrel (436mm, or ~17.17"), and a special-order short barrel (406mm, or ~15.98") on their rifles in addition to the 533mm (~20.98").  I've never seen a factory FN fixed-butt rifle with a shorter barrel except the one mentioned.  I've seen plenty of paras with the 17" and 18" barrels (never seen one with the 16", though).

I'd be surprised if a factory rifle like this actually ended up in Rhodesia.

Now, there is one soldier who did cut down his FAL's barrel.  He had a gunsmith cut it down.  Someone who served with him knew the exact length, but I forget what it was (my estimate, based on the photo, is around 17.5"; it could possibly anywhere from 17-18").  According to his comrade (who is a member on another forum; this is to the best of my recollection), he was not authorized to do this and almost got in serious trouble (as in a court martial) over it, as it was very much a violation of their military code.  However, he was ultimately given a slap on the wrist and allowed to keep using his rifle, and was warned never to do anything like that again or they wouldn't go so easy on him.  A member of the RLI, IIRC.  The guy had posted his name, but I cannot remember exactly which forum this was on, nor can I find the thread.  I did find the picture, though, shown below.  It's the soldier on the viewer's right.  You can see that his barrel is shorter than 21".

I know of no other example of a Rhodesian soldier with a fixed-butt FAL with a shorter barrel.  Even paras with shorter barrels were uncommon in photos (and based on what vets have said).  The bulk of them had 21" barrels, and even those were not all that common.  Rhodesia did convert some R1s into paras, though, with stocks they made in-country (the stocks and lowers were sold by Sarco as "humper specials").  They also had to convert the bolt carriers into para ones.

Now, a Rhodesian civilian who owned a FAL would have had the leeway to cut down his barrel, but I haven't seen a picture of a civilian with such a thing, yet.  Doesn't mean it didn't occur, though.

Link Posted: 5/28/2020 4:54:05 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Now, a Rhodesian civilian who owned a FAL would have had the leeway to cut down his barrel, but I haven't seen a picture of a civilian with such a thing, yet.  Doesn't mean it didn't occur, though.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49943568793_b821218dcc_o.jpg
View Quote


Rhodesian civilians were not permitted to own automatic weapons- hence all the Rhodesian and RSA-made open-bolt semi-auto PCCs marketed to civilians- so the odds of a garage mod are nil.
Link Posted: 5/28/2020 5:15:11 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Rhodesian civilians were not permitted to own automatic weapons- hence all the Rhodesian and RSA-made open-bolt semi-auto PCCs marketed to civilians- so the odds of a garage mod are nil.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Now, a Rhodesian civilian who owned a FAL would have had the leeway to cut down his barrel, but I haven't seen a picture of a civilian with such a thing, yet.  Doesn't mean it didn't occur, though.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49943568793_b821218dcc_o.jpg


Rhodesian civilians were not permitted to own automatic weapons- hence all the Rhodesian and RSA-made open-bolt semi-auto PCCs marketed to civilians- so the odds of a garage mod are nil.


All of the photos with civilians with their privately-owned FALs would speak to the contrary.  It should be noted that the standard for something not being considered full-auto in other countries is often less stringent than what it is in the U.S., including a lack of a "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" rule.  The open-bolt PCCs would probably be restricted here in the U.S. if someone wanted to make them.  In some countries, for a FAL, removing the safety sear and installing a selector with the beak, can be enough to change its status (or just having the semi-auto trigger plunger and selector, but still having the safety sear installed).  I think something like this may still be the case in South Africa.  A more geographically distant example is in Switzerland, where making the Stgw-57 into a semi-auto so the militiaman could keep his weapon after his service was completed involved nothing more than installing a little plastic block that prevented the weapon from being fired on auto.  None of that would fly by our country's standards, of course.

Link Posted: 5/28/2020 5:17:48 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



FN apparently did offer the shorter barrels with the fixed stock.  Not sure if they also called those Model 50.00 rifles or not.  I've seen one factory FN that was imported to the U.S. in the 1980s with a 436mm barrel (~17.17").  FN offered their short barrel (458mm, or 18.03"), super short barrel (436mm, or ~17.17"), and a special-order short barrel (406mm, or ~15.98") on their rifles in addition to the 533mm (~20.98").  I've never seen a factory FN fixed-butt rifle with a shorter barrel except the one mentioned.  I've seen plenty of paras with the 17" and 18" barrels (never seen one with the 16", though).

I'd be surprised if a factory rifle like this actually ended up in Rhodesia.

Now, there is one soldier who did cut down his FAL's barrel.  He had a gunsmith cut it down.  Someone who served with him knew the exact length, but I forget what it was (my estimate, based on the photo, is around 17.5"; it could possibly anywhere from 17-18").  According to his comrade (who is a member on another forum; this is to the best of my recollection), he was not authorized to do this and almost got in serious trouble (as in a court martial) over it, as it was very much a violation of their military code.  However, he was ultimately given a slap on the wrist and allowed to keep using his rifle, and was warned never to do anything like that again or they wouldn't go so easy on him.  A member of the RLI, IIRC.  The guy had posted his name, but I cannot remember exactly which forum this was on, nor can I find the thread.  I did find the picture, though, shown below.  It's the soldier on the viewer's right.  You can see that his barrel is shorter than 21".

I know of no other example of a Rhodesian soldier with a fixed-butt FAL with a shorter barrel.  Even paras with shorter barrels were uncommon in photos (and based on what vets have said).  The bulk of them had 21" barrels, and even those were not all that common.  Rhodesia did convert some R1s into paras, though, with stocks they made in-country (the stocks and lowers were sold by Sarco as "humper specials").  They also had to convert the bolt carriers into para ones.

Now, a Rhodesian civilian who owned a FAL would have had the leeway to cut down his barrel, but I haven't seen a picture of a civilian with such a thing, yet.  Doesn't mean it didn't occur, though.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49943568793_b821218dcc_o.jpg
View Quote


Solid info. Thanks!
Link Posted: 5/29/2020 8:01:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
All of the photos with civilians with their privately-owned FALs would speak to the contrary.  It should be noted that the standard for something not being considered full-auto in other countries is often less stringent than what it is in the U.S., including a lack of a "once a machinegun, always a machinegun" rule.  The open-bolt PCCs would probably be restricted here in the U.S. if someone wanted to make them.  In some countries, for a FAL, removing the safety sear and installing a selector with the beak, can be enough to change its status (or just having the semi-auto trigger plunger and selector, but still having the safety sear installed).  I think something like this may still be the case in South Africa.  A more geographically distant example is in Switzerland, where making the Stgw-57 into a semi-auto so the militiaman could keep his weapon after his service was completed involved nothing more than installing a little plastic block that prevented the weapon from being fired on auto.  None of that would fly by our country's standards, of course.
View Quote


Almost all of that has nothing to with the situation in Rhodesia. While they were easily-obtained, FN's would not have been privately-owned. They would have been issued to active-duty soldiers, held by reservists, or attained on-loan from the police or military to those that needed them (farmers and the like).
Link Posted: 5/29/2020 8:33:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Wow that pretty much answered all my questions and then some. Thank you for all the insight and information!
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@bigstick91 is a pretty cool guy, and a FAL expert
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