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Posted: 3/25/2023 4:58:54 PM EDT
[#1]
If you're seriously concerned with adversary nods, go full passive and ditch your beams and IR supplements.
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Posted: 3/25/2023 5:02:54 PM EDT
[#2]
 Special Forces Night Raid to Capture High Value Target #1: Iraq is a dusty and sandy place so it's possible so see more beam in the air #2: your weak *ss civilian legal laser is weak *ss compared to a full power military model. |
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Posted: 3/25/2023 5:37:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're seriously concerned with adversary nods, go full passive and ditch your beams and IR supplements. This |
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Posted: 3/25/2023 5:46:42 PM EDT
[#4]
Emitting is gross
Passive is the way. |
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Posted: 3/25/2023 6:12:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Emitting is gross Passive is the way. Yup. Emitters are only for indoor, no light at all applications imho. |
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Posted: 3/25/2023 6:38:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Silly scenario, but is it worth it to obtain a more powerful laser? The more powerful lasers are for the better illuminators not really for the brighter pointers. |
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Posted: 3/25/2023 8:10:40 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're seriously concerned with adversary nods, go full passive and ditch your beams and IR supplements. That's what the trend has been lately... But I don't think I'm gonna go down that route. Though it would be nice to sell all that and get a thermal scope... |
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Posted: 3/26/2023 12:07:55 AM EDT
[#8]
In the thick forest I'm in, illuminators are occasionally a necessity. It's true that you could 'just use a thermal', but if we're talking i2, in heavy tree cover, or a true pitch black night you need illum to shoot past ~50 yards, sometimes less.
Just a time and a place for every tool. You just have to treat it like a visible light these days since it's more likely than it used to be that someone can see it with their nods or security cam or whatever. |
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Posted: 3/26/2023 1:30:31 AM EDT
[#9]
Passive with Eotech.
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Posted: 3/26/2023 3:08:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Passive with Eotech. Passive is a nice option but there is a benefit to the laser pointers. Anyone that says otherwise is reducing their capabilities unnecessarily. My full power PEQ15's are absurd on high power laser mode. Thankfully, the diffuser cap reduces the output so it outputs like a civilian laser pointer or the pointer on low power. |
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Posted: 3/26/2023 11:48:31 AM EDT
[#11]
The YT Channel 'Brass Facts' recently did a video on Passive vs Active - lots of through device video. Passive is awesome when the conditions favor it...unfortunately, those conditions are a less numerous than some people think. Have both, learn when to use each. You can 'what if' this stuff to death - if an adversary has Thermal (gives away your position via heat), whatta ya gonna do, never engage?
 @SnazSleepWalker Hahahahahaha!  vvvvvvv |
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Posted: 3/26/2023 11:52:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote Historyif an adversary has Thermal (gives away your position via heat), whatta ya gonna do, never engage? Correct
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Posted: 3/26/2023 11:49:04 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The YT Channel 'Brass Facts' recently did a video on Passive vs Active - lots of through device video. Passive is awesome when the conditions favor it...unfortunately, those conditions are a less numerous than some people think. Have both, learn when to use each. You can 'what if' this stuff to death - if an adversary has Thermal (gives away your position via heat), whatta ya gonna do, never engage? @SnazSleepWalker Hahahahahaha! vvvvvvv Thank you sir!  Night Vision: Why Active Aiming is Superior to Passive Aiming |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 12:31:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Passive is a nice option but there is a benefit to the laser pointers. Anyone that says otherwise is reducing their capabilities unnecessarily. My full power PEQ15's are absurd on high power laser mode. Thankfully, the diffuser cap reduces the output so it outputs like a civilian laser pointer or the pointer on low power. You need to do both, but modern real world P2P passive is the go to - active is the back up. Thermal 18mm FL and 640x. Current doctrine, correctly, is focussed on minimum signature. Light discipline applies to white, red, green, blue and IR. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 8:36:51 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You need to do both, but modern real world P2P passive is the go to - active is the back up. Thermal 18mm FL and 640x. Current doctrine, correctly, is focussed on minimum signature. Light discipline applies to white, red, green, blue and IR. Who in the modern real world is engaging other humans primarily passive? Whose current doctrine is this? I've taken NV classes from multiple CAG and DEVGRU guys, and none of them emphasized passive. I get the prediction of using passive in future conflicts, but that's all conjecture at this point. The closest example we have of a near pear conflict is Ukraine, and conventional forces aren't using NV over there anyway. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 8:48:18 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who in the modern real world is engaging other humans primarily passive? Whose current doctrine is this? I've taken NV classes from multiple CAG and DEVGRU guys, and none of them emphasized passive. I get the prediction of using passive in future conflicts, but that's all conjecture at this point. The closest example we have of a near pear conflict is Ukraine, and conventional forces aren't using NV over there anyway. The current doctrine is minimum signature....................AFG COIN and its subsets is not a sole template, it is one of many. In the Ukraine conflict infiltration is carried out by both sides in the dark under NODS. The weak spots are identified and the meat attempts to punch through in daylight. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 8:53:52 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The current doctrine is minimum signature....................AFG COIN is not a template, it it one of many. Whose current doctrine? And does "minimum signature" mean passive? Turning the laser on to engage and then turning it back off could also mean minimal signature. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 9:02:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whose current doctrine? And does "minimum signature" mean passive? Turning the laser on to engage and then turning it back off could also mean minimal signature. Literally everyones (NATO) doctrine is to minimise signature its not contentious. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 9:11:16 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Literally everyones (NATO) doctrine is to minimise signature its not contentious. You're saying that a generic NATO doctrine of minimizing signature means that US soldiers are currently engaging (or even training to engage) other soldiers primarily passively under NV instead of with their IR lasers? I'm not trying to be contentious. I'm just trying to square what actual NV SMEs have said with what the internet NV community says. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 4:36:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryI've taken NV classes from multiple CAG and DEVGRU guys, and none of them emphasized passive. Weren't most of those guys trained in the GWOT era, when our forces had total domination of the i2 market. The assumption of 'we own the night' is simply not valid anymore. Every ring camera on your block can see your ir lasers. Every security camera, many modern cell phones. Shit, even my oculus vr headset can see in the ir spectrum. Regardless of what delta force devgru navy seal marines may have learned overseas 15 or 20 years ago, today you would be a fool to use active lights when you don't absolutely need them. Caveat is that you would be a fool to not use them when you absolutely do need them. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 5:02:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Weren't most of those guys trained in the GWOT era, when our forces had total domination of the i2 market. The assumption of 'we own the night' is simply not valid anymore. Every ring camera on your block can see your ir lasers. Every security camera, many modern cell phones. Shit, even my oculus vr headset can see in the ir spectrum. Regardless of what delta force devgru navy seal marines may have learned overseas 15 or 20 years ago, today you would be a fool to use active lights when you don't absolutely need them. Caveat is that you would be a fool to not use them when you absolutely do need them. ^^^ This. Pretty much common sense. And before anyone posts any "inside" info to "out know" the other guy, please remember this is a public forum  |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 5:12:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Weren't most of those guys trained in the GWOT era, when our forces had total domination of the i2 market. The assumption of 'we own the night' is simply not valid anymore. Every ring camera on your block can see your ir lasers. Every security camera, many modern cell phones. Shit, even my oculus vr headset can see in the ir spectrum. Regardless of what delta force devgru navy seal marines may have learned overseas 15 or 20 years ago, today you would be a fool to use active lights when you don't absolutely need them. Caveat is that you would be a fool to not use them when you absolutely do need them. That has been brought up how there was no IR discipline early on in the GWOT 20 years ago, but bad guys with cheap night shot camcorders ended that practice many years ago. FWIW, the DEVGRU instructor had only been out a few months when asked about passive aiming. Not to say it never happens, but to say it's the primary method over a laser does not track with anything I've heard from the people that are actually doing it. Caveat: all of my NV rifles are setup with a passive aiming solution in addition to a laser/illuminator. I think it's a good option to have even if it's not the primary aiming method. Also, to add a little bit of personal experience to the stuff that I'm parroting from other people, the illuminator is needed more often than not to positively ID photorealistic paper targets and live role players during force on force with simunitions. |
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Posted: 3/27/2023 11:09:10 PM EDT
[#23]
Mission, ROE, PID all play a role.
The whole point of high quality NODS is to give a tactical advantage e.g. you can detect, recognise, identify and engage a foe before he can do the same to you. By being passive (because your identification range is greater), it allows you first mover advantage and in contact, first mover advantage is usually decisive. When contact is enjoined its fine to go active so long as you keep moving and the people with you are well trained, have good comms and tactically know how to move as a group. If you're solo Vs group scenario - you're done and dusted if you go active, more so if you go active and don't move. Note all of the above refers to P2P and identification means a valid threat. |
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Posted: 3/28/2023 1:16:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Have we seen a near peer or peer v. peer large scale conflict where both sides are actively using and utilizing nvgs?
I suspect or hypothesize that common practices (maybe not particularly doctrine) may change as experiences progress with larger amounts of NVG (and thermal) use on both sides, with particular and possibly emphasis on reduction of emissions. Someone from tnvc stated that 2022 would go down as a year of massive IP theft in the thermal and NOD world. It’s no stretch of the imagination to believe that we will see more and more and cheaper and cheaper devices flooding armies of the world. |
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Posted: 3/28/2023 10:25:28 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have we seen a near peer or peer v. peer large scale conflict where both sides are actively using and utilizing nvgs? Ukraine - night, probing and infiltration - both sides. Its has also been recognised as an issue for many years. In terms of smaller uncooled thermals its a wash, in terms of IIT the west produces better to significantly better tubes. Photonis in France produces something like 60% - 70% of total supply in any given year. The largest producers of IIT in Russia are KATOD and EKRAN and as a general comment their tubes are lower sensitivity, lower gain, lower resolution, lower high-light resolution with relatively poor halo and no autogating. They do have two strengths, they will operate down to at least -45 degrees C and they are very robust. The point being if you're running modern western NODS you will have a much better DRI range than the opposition - see above in relation to passive aiming and decisive first mover outcomes. The technology behind IIT is simple and well understood - however, it is exceedingly difficult to make good photocathodes and micro-channel plates. Implicit in this, the west has a significant advantage. It is far better to build on that advantage by being passive to gain a decisive position at contact or for surveillance purposes.
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Posted: 4/5/2023 4:18:07 PM EDT
[#26]
I feel like the term "doctrine" is not being used correctly in this thread...
Anyways. Lasers don't appear to be going anywhere. Even with systems like FWS-I and ENVG-B and other networked systems, lasers still have benefits, and 100% passive is more of a "goal" than a practical reality. Meanwhile, as far as non-verbal communications and signalling is concerned, the output power that you need is going to greatly depend on the range, size, and frontage of your element. While environmental conditions notwithstanding, "inherently" targeting lasers are not intended to have a beam that traces back to the user--the signature issue is more related to being able to see the laser at the emitter side, i.e., you will see a big bright glow right where the person with the laser is. In 2023 most people seem to understand that using a white light has a signature penalty, however most people still have white lights on their social guns. It's neither a good idea to roll around with your flashlight constantly on blasting white light at everything, nor is it a good idea to then roll without one just because other people have eyes. Fighting against an NVG equipped enemy really isn't as complicated as some people make it out to be, and maneuver is less about shooting at people as it is getting in the right place so that the enemy has no choice except to lose, and NVGs are a maneuver tool first and foremost. Meanwhile, regarding... "direct action specialists," most of the time when the phrase "violence of action" comes into play, signature is no longer as big of a deal as the approach or on a movement or patrol or in a defensive posture, gun shots, even suppressed aren't really... "low signature," not to mention belt-feds, artillery and indirect, etc.. We used to initiate night attacks by shooting parachute flares over the objective trying to turn night into day, and I bet those guys use white lights a lot too when they're doing their business. If you're talking "peer," or "near peer" and you're worried about getting noticed by the dinky little <100 mW laser on your pop gun but not doing anything to conceal yourself from the thermal drone loitering overhead you're barking up the wrong tree. The best protection is "don't be where the enemy thinks you are," and NVGs can make you mo' betta at that to a point, hopefully at least until you get close enough to see the whites of his eyes. Or maybe his eye-shine as you make him un-sighted shortly before making him un-alive. ~Augee |
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