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Posted: 11/5/2020 11:49:03 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: https://www.ballisticmag.com/2020/10/26/century-arms-ap5-first-look/?fbclid=IwAR1vcmbLD4VF00NFLxxEJjbFNfhoZPUZMbIraXTYLs6hviwJvPfJyai9eI0 Anyone have more info? Article and video says made in Turkey on original HK equipment. Is this an MKE product and Zenith is no longer the importer? That's the way I read it. Could get interesting if the QC problems I've read about (no real world experience) are fixed. I would be in for a K to go with my SP5 and SD. 
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Posted: 11/5/2020 12:13:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: https://www.ballisticmag.com/2020/10/26/century-arms-ap5-first-look/?fbclid=IwAR1vcmbLD4VF00NFLxxEJjbFNfhoZPUZMbIraXTYLs6hviwJvPfJyai9eI0 Anyone have more info? Article and video says made in Turkey on original HK equipment. Is this an MKE product and Zenith is no longer the importer? I did not glean that from anywhere in the article What I read is this; “The AP5 is being built in a military manufacturing facility in Turkey on original [HK] equipment.” There are a lot of “facilities” in Turkey that have manufactured military items besides MKE. The second part about being made on “original [HK] equipment” has been a standard Century marketing line for decades. These may be a good deal like the SAR AK rifles or the CANIK pistols. Or These could be Century-fucked jam-o-matics like some of their FAL, CETME and HK builds. I’ll want to actually see/shoot some examples before I would commit to a purchase. Century is like that crazy girlfriend who sometimes is fun but more often than not is just more trouble than she’s worth. |
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Posted: 11/5/2020 12:18:31 PM EDT
[#3]
I'll be curious to see the price point. Hard to justify around $2,000 for a clone when the SP5 can be found for under $3,000.
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Posted: 11/5/2020 12:42:07 PM EDT
[#4]
I would trust anything those monkeys over at Century touched. They already have a shitty track record with roller lockers, and about everything else I can think of.
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Posted: 11/5/2020 2:36:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Hah. Century bought Zenith's product line out from under them.
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Posted: 11/5/2020 3:16:37 PM EDT
[#6]
You go first......
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Posted: 11/5/2020 3:22:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hah. Century bought Zenith's product line out from under them. Thats kind of what I was thinking..... went thru the video to search for markings....looks like a piece of tape over MKE markings to me... 
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Posted: 11/5/2020 3:27:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Video said they are made out of a facility in Turkey
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Posted: 11/5/2020 3:46:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Century apparently pulled the (flying) carpet out from underneath Zenith.
Rumor(s) from guys on the ground in Turkey is they are indeed going to be an MKE product. |
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Posted: 11/5/2020 4:30:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Yeah as far as I know, MKE was the only company in Turkey that had the old HK machinery. That's why I said what I did earlier.
Sounds like some fuckery if CA did do this without Zenith knowing. |
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Posted: 11/5/2020 4:52:43 PM EDT
[#11]
Depending on price and if century is only the importer, I'll buy one. Can't have too many clones
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Posted: 11/5/2020 5:24:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Hope it's decent and a lot cheaper! I want an MP5 clone really bad, but I can't justify $2000+ for one!
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Posted: 11/5/2020 5:56:39 PM EDT
[#13]
I wonder if it will be available before those from PSA.
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Posted: 11/5/2020 6:42:50 PM EDT
[#14]
First and foremost is whether ATF decides it's an AOW and not a pistol. All they need is a small statured agent who can't shoot it one handed.
Or maybe they allow importation and decide it's not a pistol while sitting in customs. |
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Posted: 11/5/2020 10:48:19 PM EDT
[#15]
Maybe it was Century who was trying to import a .308 HK pattern pistol in regards to the ATF letter. ??
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Posted: 11/6/2020 10:40:54 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder if it will be available before those from PSA. Yes |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 11:16:53 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thats kind of what I was thinking..... went thru the video to search for markings....looks like a piece of tape over MKE markings to me... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/55482/ap5-1670724.jpg LOL, I saw that too. I wonder if Zenith got fed up with, or was low-balled by Century. I called Zenith a few months ago looking for another forearm for Z5P and asked them about them getting in more guns and the lady had no idea when/if they were going to get any in. They did have ZQI ammo though. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 11:19:52 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Century apparently pulled the (flying) carpet out from underneath Zenith. Rumor(s) from guys on the ground in Turkey is they are indeed going to be an MKE product. So long as Century doesn't rat-fuck them some way or another I'd be in for the Z5K just to round out my collection. ETA: After reading the linked article, it seems that the pistol comes with all the same accoutrements as the Zenith guns. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 11:42:08 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So long as Century doesn't rat-fuck them some way or another I'd be in for the Z5K just to round out my collection. Since they are coming in as pistol, they won't need any 922r parts, so they should be good to go. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 11:45:56 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since they are coming in as pistol, they won't need any 922r parts, so they should be good to go. Yeah, well...you know Century!  After reading the article posted, I guess they are shipping with the same exact stuff that the Zenith ones were shipping with. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 11:59:03 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, well...you know Century! After reading the article posted, I guess they are shipping with the same exact stuff that the Zenith ones were shipping with. Someone on HKpro pointed out the right side of the magwell was covered with electrical tape so odds are their demo guns are Zenith's. Probably stay that way until whatever paperwork that needed doing clears and we get ugly electro pencil import markings.
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Posted: 11/6/2020 12:03:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Someone on HKpro pointed out the right side of the magwell was covered with electrical tape so odds are their demo guns are Zenith's. Probably stay that way until whatever paperwork that needed doing clears and we get ugly electro pencil import markings.  Probably be a big drop of welding and then sanded down with the "Century" penciled in.
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Posted: 11/6/2020 12:07:11 PM EDT
[#23]
All that being said, I don't see these being as low-priced as the Zenith ones. I think Century offered more money for getting these in, so the price difference will of course be brought to bear on us.
Dang, I'm half-tempted to Zenith right now and order that stock and then just ask them what happened. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 12:33:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, well...you know Century! After reading the article posted, I guess they are shipping with the same exact stuff that the Zenith ones were shipping with. Would suck if they cheaped out and put their own crappy furniture on it, or something like that. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 2:13:29 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep, lol. Would suck if they cheaped out and put their own crappy furniture on it, or something like that. I hope not. I'm still in the market for Z5k. And if they do, at least keep the OEM stuff in the box so that I can change it back. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 3:21:50 PM EDT
[#26]
I think some of you are a bit off on the Century blame. When Century acts as just an importer, especially for pistols, they have nothing to do with the way the guns were manufactured. Their role is just to electropencil/stamp import marks on the guns.
The problem with Century was when they assembled guns themselves, like AKs, FALs and G3s. Sometimes, their assembly skills were horrible or how they cobbled up a complete gun was just an abomination (Egyptian-Chinese AKs). Sometimes, the kits were of questionable quality and that didn't help their case. Even then, they sometimes subcontracted out the work and the final products - under the Century name - were exceptional. I have several C&R rifles and pistols imported by Century that are fine; no problems at all. I also have some of their AK builds that I had to repair (AMD-65 barrel end was angled), while others are truly exceptional (Yugo fixed stock and underfolder subcontracted by Century). In this case, we're talking about Century just doing the importing of the guns as pistols and not assembling anything or using any of their own parts (which are typically garbage), since 922r doesn't apply. If the builder is an established MP5 builder, I see no problem or need to blame them in advance. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 4:23:06 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think some of you are a bit off on the Century blame. When Century acts as just an importer, especially for pistols, they have nothing to do with the way the guns were manufactured. Their role is just to electropencil/stamp import marks on the guns. The problem with Century was when they assembled guns themselves, like AKs, FALs and G3s. Sometimes, their assembly skills were horrible or how they cobbled up a complete gun was just an abomination (Egyptian-Chinese AKs). Sometimes, the kits were of questionable quality and that didn't help their case. Even then, they sometimes subcontracted out the work and the final products - under the Century name - were exceptional. I have several C&R rifles and pistols imported by Century that are fine; no problems at all. I also have some of their AK builds that I had to repair (AMD-65 barrel end was angled), while others are truly exceptional (Yugo fixed stock and underfolder subcontracted by Century). In this case, we're talking about Century just doing the importing of the guns as pistols and not assembling anything or using any of their own parts (which are typically garbage), since 922r doesn't apply. If the builder is an established MP5 builder, I see no problem or need to blame them in advance. +1 to this. Century as an importer usually does a pretty standup job. Yeah, there's been shoddy 922r parts but nothing that hasn't been fixable. The worst things I can say about them there are 1) strong "no one will buy that" mentality (5.45 rifles, Zastava's other products) and 2) "heh heh we're the exclusive importer" and premium pricing. Not like Zenith didn't already attach a premium on MKE's offerings. I can't imagine what sort of buggery Century has in store for us though I'm curious why Zenith seems to have given up. MKE set prices they didn't want to pay? MKE set a minimum order they couldn't meet? Century offered more per unit or ordered vastly larger quantities? The SP5/SP5K set the premium price point; I think PTR sets the value price point. They're going to have to land somewhere inbetween to be successful. Wishful thinking, I'd love to see Century eclipse PTR's pricing on a volume play, but the MP5 clone market has never really worked that way. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 5:17:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1 to this. Century as an importer usually does a pretty standup job. Yeah, there's been shoddy 922r parts but nothing that hasn't been fixable. The worst things I can say about them there are 1) strong "no one will buy that" mentality (5.45 rifles, Zastava's other products) and 2) "heh heh we're the exclusive importer" and premium pricing. Not like Zenith didn't already attach a premium on MKE's offerings. I can't imagine what sort of buggery Century has in store for us though I'm curious why Zenith seems to have given up. MKE set prices they didn't want to pay? MKE set a minimum order they couldn't meet? Century offered more per unit or ordered vastly larger quantities? The SP5/SP5K set the premium price point; I think PTR sets the value price point. They're going to have to land somewhere inbetween to be successful. Wishful thinking, I'd love to see Century eclipse PTR's pricing on a volume play, but the MP5 clone market has never really worked that way. If there's another HK tooled factory in Turkey that isn't MKE, I am unaware of it. My concern with it being an MKE product is that there were rumors of MKE purposefully sending in bad batches that had bad finishes, crooked rail, bad barrel, bad welds as well as possibly increasing the cost per unit. It may have been done on purpose (dirty business deals to squeeze out Zenith?) but who knows. Is Century importing factory seconds or is the quality equivalent to the early Zenith imports? No clue. |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 5:21:31 PM EDT
[#29]
My Century imported guns are some of my favorites.
M70AB2 OPAP M85NP |
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Posted: 11/6/2020 5:26:37 PM EDT
[#30]
Maybe Zenith didn't think it was economically feasible to continue after that bad batch wore them out with the warranty service? Did MKE do it on purpose? Who knows?
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Posted: 11/6/2020 7:25:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Could be the result of Zenith helping to put MKE's Production manager in prison for espionage. https://www.voanews.com/europe/arms-official-tried-sell-weapons-secrets-us-firm-turkey-says
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Posted: 11/7/2020 2:06:51 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1 to this. Century as an importer usually does a pretty standup job. Yeah, there's been shoddy 922r parts but nothing that hasn't been fixable. The worst things I can say about them there are 1) strong "no one will buy that" mentality (5.45 rifles, Zastava's other products) and 2) "heh heh we're the exclusive importer" and premium pricing. Not like Zenith didn't already attach a premium on MKE's offerings. I can't imagine what sort of buggery Century has in store for us though I'm curious why Zenith seems to have given up. MKE set prices they didn't want to pay? MKE set a minimum order they couldn't meet? Century offered more per unit or ordered vastly larger quantities? The SP5/SP5K set the premium price point; I think PTR sets the value price point. They're going to have to land somewhere inbetween to be successful. Wishful thinking, I'd love to see Century eclipse PTR's pricing on a volume play, but the MP5 clone market has never really worked that way. Probably economy of scale, Century's a much bigger entity than Zenith and has been in business longer. Who knows, maybe they'll pull off the pricing, potentially by having guns that aren't getting as much attention to fit and finish. |
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Posted: 11/7/2020 2:56:04 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My concern with it being an MKE product is that there were rumors of MKE purposefully sending in bad batches that had bad finishes, crooked rail, bad barrel, bad welds as well as possibly increasing the cost per unit. There is no situation where it would be good for a business to intentionally sabotage it's own product line. That is pure gun store bullshit. |
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Posted: 11/7/2020 8:08:44 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably economy of scale, Century's a much bigger entity than Zenith and has been in business longer. Who knows, maybe they'll pull off the pricing, potentially by having guns that aren't getting as much attention to fit and finish. Century can certainly offer a larger network of established importation, distribution and market reach. A small importer may not be able to have as many resources to do larger volumes of distribution and associated marketing, etc. Century can afford a larger importation batch at a time and distribute to its networks of distributors. This would allow some better pricing. |
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Posted: 11/7/2020 9:02:26 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Could be the result of Zenith helping to put MKE's Production manager in prison for espionage. https://www.voanews.com/europe/arms-official-tried-sell-weapons-secrets-us-firm-turkey-says 
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Posted: 11/7/2020 11:08:53 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no situation where it would be good for a business to intentionally sabotage it's own product line. That is pure gun store bullshit. Good for business? No. Making a political statement? Perhaps. |
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Posted: 11/7/2020 6:38:41 PM EDT
[#37]
I would assume they are directly imported from MKE, but never know, they may be a big batch of guns sold somewhere and Century bought it out.
Though, as it was mentioned, Zenith had a warranty that was backed by good customer service. Century will probably not answer your phonecall. At least in the old days, it was like 30 days from when they shipped and they really didn't care at all. |
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Posted: 11/7/2020 9:08:57 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or maybe it was a company that was trying to bring a low cost MP5 clone to market and got caught up in internal Turkey fuck-fuck games? Maybe that's why this particular MP5 clone hasn't came to market? Why would an importer shit in their own mess-kit? That's a potential manufacturers job.
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Posted: 11/8/2020 3:59:06 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or maybe it was a company that was trying to bring a low cost MP5 clone to market and got caught up in internal Turkey fuck-fuck games? Maybe that's why this particular MP5 clone hasn't came to market? Why would an importer shit in their own mess-kit? That's a potential manufacturers job. Quote HistoryQuoted: Or maybe it was a company that was trying to bring a low cost MP5 clone to market and got caught up in internal Turkey fuck-fuck games? Maybe that's why this particular MP5 clone hasn't came to market? Why would an importer shit in their own mess-kit? That's a potential manufacturers job. Whatever Zenith did before and after the fact, it's implied they burned their bridges with MKE. To sum it up, Zenith's CEO snitched on a MKE executive. According to this article (it's in Turkish, but google translate makes a somewhat understable result), Zenith was indeed involved. https://www.ntv.com.tr/turkiye/eski-mkek-mudurune-12-yil-8-ay-hapis,r11UYwWfnUmPRpgktUBtgw the indictment regarding the investigation, it was stated that the investigation was initiated after the informant Kutlay Kaya applied to the Ankara Chief Public Prosecutor's Office on April 1, 2016, when Tanriverdi wanted to sell all the documents, including drawings and production plans of the MP5 and MPT-76 model gun produced in the factory. It was stated in the indictment that Kaya and Tanriverdi met at the restaurant in Sögütözü while the police were following the police's meeting place after the notification, it was stated that Tanriverdi was caught trying to sell the information for 200 thousand liras and 300 thousand dollars. In the indictment, which includes Kaya's statement that he is the owner of the company called Zenith Fire Arms in the USA, that he is engaged in international arms trade and that he knows Tanriverdi because of his business trips to MKEK, Tanriverdi is "taking bribes" and "keeping secret he was imprisoned for the crimes of "exploiting necessary scientific discovery, invention and industrial innovations" In this article, it says (note K.K. = Kutlay Kaya, Zenith's CEO) https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-arms-factory-manager-remanded-for-selling-state-secrets--97512 Tanriverdi was arrested on charges of receiving bribes, exploiting state secrets and disloyalty to state services, after a notice that came from a weapons trader businessman, identified only as K.K., according to daily Hürriyet. Tanriverdi allegedly tried to sell the design and production plans of the MKE-patented MP-5 weapon and the newly produced domestic infantry rifle MPT-76 to K.K., who is a U.S. company official, for $200,000 and $300,000, respectively. Tanriverdi was detained on April 6 at a restaurant in Ankara’s Sögütözü district and was referred to the court on duty after the testimony he gave in the Ankara courthouse. “I’ve made a mistake in this incident. I know what I’ve done and I regret it,” said Tanriverdi in his testimony, while claiming that the information that he allegedly gave to K.K. doesn’t qualify as state secret, according to reports. “I know the person named K.K. for almost a year and a half. I know that he does weapons trade legally and will set up a weapons factory for civilians in the U.S. I’ve sold 10,000 civilian versions of MP-5, G-3 and similar weapons to these to this person legally. He wanted the design and other information on MPT-76 and MP-5 rifles from me. He told me that he will set up a weapons factory in the U.S. and he wanted to use my experience. I’ve made a mistake and believed what he told me.” The Ankara Chief Public Prosecutor’s Office began investigating Tanriverdi after K.K. contacted them and reported state secrets were being sold from the MKE Weapons Factory, Anadolu Agency reported. |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 10:07:29 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whatever Zenith did before and after the fact, it's implied they burned their bridges with MKE. To sum it up, Zenith's CEO snitched on a MKE executive. According to this article (it's in Turkish, but google translate makes a somewhat understable result), Zenith was indeed involved. https://www.ntv.com.tr/turkiye/eski-mkek-mudurune-12-yil-8-ay-hapis,r11UYwWfnUmPRpgktUBtgw In this article, it says (note K.K. = Kutlay Kaya, Zenith's CEO) https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-arms-factory-manager-remanded-for-selling-state-secrets--97512 Thanks for more info!!! I made my post half in jest, based on the original info posted. Pretty stupid move by Zenith. |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 10:45:09 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for more info!!! I made my post half in jest, based on the original info posted. Pretty stupid move by Zenith. I don't see it that way. Say you ran an arms importing business as an American in Turkey. You then had a meeting with a Colt exec who you've known for awhile during the course of business. He then offers to sell you the secret sauce for their guns, under the table, so Turks can make their own guns to Colt specs. Would you pay the man or do the right thing? |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 11:07:43 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't see it that way. Say you ran an arms importing business as an American in Turkey. You then had a meeting with a Colt exec who you've known for awhile during the course of business. He then offers to sell you the secret sauce for their guns, under the table, so Turks can make their own guns to Colt specs. Would you pay the man or do the right thing? The whole thing seems screwy unless Zenith planned on getting into the manufacturing business and cutting out MKE. Between all the clone manufacturers and real MP5s out there, I'm pretty sure the MP5 has been reversed engineered so much there isn't any secrets left. Same with the MPT-76. Now the machinery they are made on, that would be a different story. |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 11:48:15 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The whole thing seems screwy unless Zenith planned on getting into the manufacturing business and cutting out MKE. Between all the clone manufacturers and real MP5s out there, I'm pretty sure the MP5 has been reversed engineered so much there isn't any secrets left. Same with the MPT-76. Now the machinery they are made on, that would be a different story. How is it screwy? A greedy man was done in by his own greed because he tried to sell secrets to the wrong person. |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 3:33:31 PM EDT
[#44]
Well, whatever the facts are - if century can bring these in at a POF price point or slightly above, I’m in. Who knows, maybe they’ll even beat it.
I find it interesting how relatively high priced Turkish roller locks were, yet all the Turkish CZ, Beretta clones, striker pistols and shotguns imported here are very cheap. |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 5:59:21 PM EDT
[#45]
So is Turkey talking about the drawings being state secrets or something? Hell we got a bunch of backyard gunsmiths making and selling MP5 clones here already. What does getting the TDP for this hurt? I mean, unless they were never available to begin with? Is that why actual clones are hit and miss and Zenith ones are true licensed MP5?
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Posted: 11/8/2020 6:07:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So is Turkey talking about the drawings being state secrets or something? Hell we got a bunch of backyard gunsmiths making and selling MP5 clones here already. What does getting the TDP for this hurt? I mean, unless they were never available to begin with? Is that why actual clones are hit and miss and Zenith ones are true licensed MP5? Usually international licensing agreements are enforced by government agencies and not as a normal business arrangement. But I don't think its about the actual German technical package data being leaked outside of licensed hands. I suspect that as part of the Quality System the Turkish military likely requires for any government supplier is that they do not share any "specifications" outside of a controlled manner such as with a government approved supplier list and anyone outside that list would be violative of laws. |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 6:50:45 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, whatever the facts are - if century can bring these in at a POF price point or slightly above, I’m in. Who knows, maybe they’ll even beat it. I find it interesting how relatively high priced Turkish roller locks were, yet all the Turkish CZ, Beretta clones, striker pistols and shotguns imported here are very cheap. It's entirely possible that there was a massive mark up on the US side, so Century could pay more than Zenith, while still charging less to the end customer (assuming they do charge less, current market being what it is) since they don't depend on the specific sales. |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 7:56:05 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So is Turkey talking about the drawings being state secrets or something? Hell we got a bunch of backyard gunsmiths making and selling MP5 clones here already. What does getting the TDP for this hurt? I mean, unless they were never available to begin with? Is that why actual clones are hit and miss and Zenith ones are true licensed MP5? Sounds like Turkey was more pissed about the MPT-76 info being for sale than the MP5. |
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Posted: 11/8/2020 8:02:53 PM EDT
[#49]
MKE has been lucky if they export 10 guns in the last few years as it is with everything going on in Turkey. Now with the new pres I dont see this ever coming to fruition in a big way.
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Posted: 11/9/2020 3:54:40 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MKE has been lucky if they export 10 guns in the last few years as it is with everything going on in Turkey. Now with the new pres I dont see this ever coming to fruition in a big way. Turkey politics are probably more of a problem but century is pretty good at pulling off large import relationships so if any non manufacturer could do it they can. As far as the rest, CNN isn’t the electoral college, let’s wait and see and do what we can, |
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