Can a LLC own NFA stuff? - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Can a LLC own NFA stuff?

Posted: 5/12/2018 11:09:06 PM EDT

Is an LLC considered the same as a trust for NFA purposes, or does a “corporation” have to be a particular type of corporation?

Posted: 5/12/2018 11:37:21 PM EDT

[#1]

LLC can own NFA items, process is essentially the same as a trust when it comes to filing the paperwork with the ATF. You just have to make sure to keep the LLC active in compliance with your state laws (registration, fees, etc.)

Posted: 5/13/2018 12:49:39 AM EDT

[#2]

Quote History

Quoted:
LLC can own NFA items, process is essentially the same as a trust when it comes to filing the paperwork with the ATF. You just have to make sure to keep the LLC active in compliance with your state laws (registration, fees, etc.)

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Thanks.

Posted: 5/13/2018 1:49:17 AM EDT

[#3]

Yes... Although looking back, I should have used a Trust. I have paid more in annual LLC fees than I ever did for the toys or stamps.

Accountant

Posted: 5/13/2018 7:18:10 PM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yes... Although looking back, I should have used a Trust. I have paid more in annual LLC fees than I ever did for the toys or stamps.

Accountant

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Yea some states are crazy on fees. Here in Arizona the fees are like nothing pretty much. $50 to establish and no ongoing maintenance or yearly fees.

Posted: 5/13/2018 10:58:05 PM EDT

[#5]

Yes, but the trust is less expensive and you don't have to maintain it.

Posted: 5/15/2018 8:37:51 AM EDT

[#6]

Although trusts have always been an entity that could legally possess firearms and other assets, I understand ATF was not approving transfers to them until the early 2000s. And this only because someone sued them over it. And trust ownership didn't really become known about until the late 2000s - early 2010s.

Prior to that, if you didn't live in a jurisdiction where the CLEO would sign, some form of corporate ownership was the only route to own NFA stuff.

At that point, it was more a matter of what type of corp (LLC, S Corp, etc). In that instance, the laws of the state you were in largely drove the decision for what was the "best" type.

Trust ownership is still a relatively new thing.

Posted: 5/15/2018 10:43:02 AM EDT

[#7]

Thanks for all the replies. I have the LLC anyway (for a side business/hobby), so I’ll be paying the annual fees regardless.

Posted: 5/15/2018 11:39:08 AM EDT

[#8]

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Quoted:
Thanks for all the replies. I have the LLC anyway (for a side business/hobby), so I’ll be paying the annual fees regardless.

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The question you need to answer for yourself is if you want your NFA stuff tied to your (unrelated?) side business.

There may be no down-side to it. Or there could be, depending on your situation.

Posted: 5/15/2018 1:22:02 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
The question you need to answer for yourself is if you want your NFA stuff tied to your (unrelated?) side business.

There may be no down-side to it. Or there could be, depending on your situation.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Thanks for all the replies. I have the LLC anyway (for a side business/hobby), so I’ll be paying the annual fees regardless.

The question you need to answer for yourself is if you want your NFA stuff tied to your (unrelated?) side business.

There may be no down-side to it. Or there could be, depending on your situation.

I'm not necessarily PLANNING on doing it, but I became curious after I just mailed two individual Form 1's to the ATF, and then realized - "wait a minute, I've got my LLC, and I wonder if that works like a trust?"

Plus, it would be kind of funny for a small pipe-making business to own an anti-tank gun.

Posted: 5/15/2018 1:46:25 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yes... Although looking back, I should have used a Trust. I have paid more in annual LLC fees than I ever did for the toys or stamps.

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Same here. Although when I started, nobody had spoken about using trusts. You're only route beside personal, was business.

ETA: Garret covered it well.

Posted: 5/15/2018 2:22:19 PM EDT

[#11]

Unlike a trust, your LLC can also hold a FFL (SOT), so LLCs can end up owning pre-samples even after the FFL/SOT is long gone.

Posted: 5/16/2018 9:17:28 AM EDT

[#12]

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Quoted:
Unlike a trust, your LLC can also hold a FFL (SOT), so LLCs can end up owning pre-samples even after the FFL/SOT is long gone.

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that would be my end plan with my ffl if i can acquire some pre samples some day

Posted: 5/16/2018 4:20:21 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
Although trusts have always been an entity that could legally possess firearms and other assets, I understand ATF was not approving transfers to them until the early 2000s. And this only because someone sued them over it. And trust ownership didn't really become known about until the late 2000s - early 2010s.

View Quote

I knew about LLC and trusts back in the 80s. Most people like me went with LLC. Trusts were "re-discovered" after the AWB expired.

Posted: 5/16/2018 4:37:31 PM EDT

[#14]

Plus, it would be kind of funny for a small pipe-making business to own an anti-tank gun.

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Not really. It's just a bigger pipe, with more expensive smoke.

Posted: 5/16/2018 5:25:32 PM EDT

[#15]

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Quoted:
Not really. It's just a bigger pipe, with more expensive smoke.

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Quoted:

Plus, it would be kind of funny for a small pipe-making business to own an anti-tank gun.

Not really. It's just a bigger pipe, with more expensive smoke.

That gives me a great idea!

Once I start reloading 84mm rounds, maybe I can mix some tobacco in with the propellant, so that it will smell really nice when a round is fired!!!

Posted: 5/16/2018 7:06:51 PM EDT

[#16]

If by Pre-samples you meant fully automatic weapons, then no, if you let the SOT expire you can keep all the NFA stuff, except for machine guns.

What happens if I let my SOT expire?

Nothing. All NFA items in your possession are yours to keep and sell except for full-auto firearms. If you let your SOT expire and have a full-auto you must let the ATF know so they can pick up the full-auto firearm and dispose of it. Failure to report is a felony that the ATF does not joke around about (when they typically are good with FFLs so long as you contact them).

Suppressors, SBRs, SBS, etc can be sold to standard customers on the standard Form 4.

The exception to this is if the FFL company also closes. All assets of the company would have to be transferred out, even for single-member LLCs or single-owner Corporations. However, a FFL under an individual’s name is able to keep all the assets without paying the transfer tax as they were transferred to them personally in the eyes of the government.

Posted: 5/16/2018 7:10:06 PM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
If by Pre-samples you meant fully automatic weapons, then no, if you let the SOT expire you can keep all the NFA stuff, except for machine guns.

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Yes you can. It is Post-Sample MGs you have to give up.

A pre-sample is any NFA imported after 1968, excluding MGs imported after 5/19/86 (which are post-sample MGs).

Posted: 5/16/2018 7:15:12 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:

Yes you can. It is Post-Sample MGs you have to give up.

A pre-sample is any NFA imported after 1968, excluding MGs imported after 5/19/86 (which are post-sample MGs).

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Oops, getting old sucks. I saw Pre and my brain said Post.

Posted: 5/30/2018 1:08:37 PM EDT

[#19]

There can be downsides to using an existing LLC, for instance if your company gets sued or has to go through bankrupcy - those are company assets.

Posted: 5/30/2018 1:47:23 PM EDT

[#20]

OP. If you are thinking you will just become an SOT/FFL..? With an LLC or Corp. to acquire toys. You are going to have issues if you are not actively enguaged in the Firearms business in some fashion.
The ATF will not look favorably on it and may decide your sole purpose was to circumvent the NFA in regards to private ownership of certain NFA weapons.
What is the definition of actively enguaged...? Entirely up to them. Lawyer up.

Posted: 5/30/2018 1:49:17 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

Quoted:
OP. If you are thinking you will just become an SOT/FFL..? With an LLC or Corp. to acquire toys. You are going to have issues if you are not actively enguaged in the Firearms business in some fashion.
The ATF will not look favorably on it and may decide your sole purpose was to circumvent the NFA in regards to private ownership of certain NFA weapons.
What is the definition of actively enguaged...? Entirely up to them. Lawyer up.

View Quote

No, I was just thinking of registering a D.D. to my pipe-making business for fun.

Posted: 5/30/2018 2:14:42 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Yes you can. It is Post-Sample MGs you have to give up.

A pre-sample is any NFA imported after 1968, excluding MGs imported after 5/19/86 (which are post-sample MGs).

View Quote

"Pre-sample" is that what individuals refer too as "Keepers" on the MG sales sites? SO MGs built or imported from 1968-1986.

Quoted:
OP. If you are thinking you will just become an SOT/FFL..? With an LLC or Corp. to acquire toys. You are going to have issues if you are not actively enguaged in the Firearms business in some fashion.
The ATF will not look favorably on it and may decide your sole purpose was to circumvent the NFA in regards to private ownership of certain NFA weapons.
What is the definition of actively enguaged...? Entirely up to them. Lawyer up.

View Quote

I have flirted with the idea of getting my FFL & SOT to sell suppressors & handle NFA transfers as a side business. After getting approved on my SOT could I then purchase a post sample lower. The purpose would be for suppressor/ MG demonstrations for prospective buyers.

Posted: 5/30/2018 4:34:47 PM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:
"Pre-sample" is that what individuals refer too as "Keepers" on the MG sales sites? SO MGs built or imported from 1968-1986

View Quote

Pre-sample "keepers" are just the imported ones 68-86. All of the domestically registered ones up until 86 are fully transferable (transferable to everyone). All of the imports prior to 68 are also. You just need a SOT to acquire the pre-samples.

It was not unheard of, prior to 86, for someone to take an imported MG, rebuild it on a US (or welded-back-together) receiver, and register it on Form 1 or 2, which would then render it fully transferable. The original uncut receivers are practically always better from both a physical and collectibility standpoint though.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Can a LLC own NFA stuff?

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