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Posted: 3/25/2020 8:55:44 PM EDT
What mags are the best for the CMMG 22lr conversion in FA? I remember seeing the discussion somewhere but can't find it now...
Any recommendations on how to make it run smooth? |
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[#2]
Black Dog is more or less the standard.
2A armament makes steel-lipped 22LR mags, I got a few a couple months ago and so far they're running pretty well. |
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[#3]
Thanks. Anyone had the 80rd black dog Drum to run? I read it needs some tweaking.. what does that mean?
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[#4]
I run the BDM drums with 15-22 towers. Guess I have the 50rd drums - not sure if those are older or your thinking of 80rds is incorrect. They work fine for me. If there are newer 80rd drums that require tweaking, I'm unaware, and unable in my current state to get them to try :(
I'm in the 15-22 magazine camp, with Boonie Packer Redi-Mag Better Mag II adapter, but also have oodles of CMMG grey-body and old Ciener steel mags. |
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[#5]
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[#8]
As far as I can tell, all currently made brands of mags are good. A far cry from the bad old days of 2008-2011 or so. If you want short body (10 or 15 round capacity) .22LR mags for bench or prone shooting (or to limit the waste of ammo), as far as I know BDM and Ciener the only sources for true short body AR mags. From what I've read, the S&W M&P15-22 mags require shimming or an adapter of some sort.
If you want to maintain the standard AR LRBHO and manual of arms there are some thing(s) that you have to add. I don't care about the standard AR LRBHO and manual of arms so someone else will have to provide that information. A recently made CMMG 5.56 to .22LR conversion unit should work reliably right out of the box (the optional anti-bounce weight and sear trip are required for full auto operation). The ROF is typically 1000+ RPM. Volume/bulk loading of high capacity stick and drum mags is generally made quicker via the McFadden Lightnin' Grip loader with AR-15 adapter (~$40 incl. H&S). When you get sick of messing with changing in and out the conversion unit, gumming up the 5.56 barrel gas port with .22 contamination, and less than optimal accuracy; come back for opinions with respect to dedicated .22LR AR uppers. Best of luck, and be well. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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[#9]
Quoted: Black Dog is more or less the standard. 2A armament makes steel-lipped 22LR mags, I got a few a couple months ago and so far they're running pretty well. View Quote I'm pretty sure that BDM makes the 2A Armament branded mags, just as they did for Spike's Tactical branded mags way back when. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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[#10]
I guess I’m in the black dog/CMMG camp. Throw in the McFadden loader and you are set. Boonie packer setup did not work for me.
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[#12]
Quoted: BDM drum mag is awful. Their other mags are gtg View Quote The BDM drum should not be giving you problems. After the COVID thing is over and we return to normalcy, I suggest that you contact BDM to arrange a swap for a new unit. Like any manufactured item, there are occasionally out of spec parts. It's been a few years since I've needed to do so, but BDM has always been good at swapping - usually they would email a USPS shipper label for you to return the magazine(s) you have. You'd still be out the time and trouble of going to the Post Office though. Best of luck. MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well. |
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[#13]
Quoted: BDM drum mag is awful. Their other mags are gtg View Quote What kind of issue are you having? Like above mine are perfectly reliable. My boys will load them and will miss a spot. Drum feeds fast enough to suck up the blank spot. Never misses a beat. Fully loads mags is where I have issues. Squeeze in the last one and it’s hit or miss |
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[#14]
Thanks for the responses. I have the 3 cmmg mags that come with the bravo kit. Auto trip and bounce thingy should arrive tomorrow. I’ll see how things run and decide to grab some Black dog mags
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[#15]
M&P 15-22 mags...
Look into the catch-22 - they make a killer bolt catch and a shim to go on the fron of your magwell and get a Lightnin' Grip Loader - McFadden Machine You can thank me later.... I run the 15-22 mags and the shim - have not picked out witch lower to install the bolt catch on... Red |
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[#16]
Quoted: M&P 15-22 mags... Look into the catch-22 - they make a killer bolt catch and a shim to go on the fron of your magwell and get a Lightnin' Grip Loader - McFadden Machine You can thank me later.... I run the 15-22 mags and the shim - have not picked out witch lower to install the bolt catch on... Red View Quote For a somewhat differing view of the M&P 15-22 mags when used in an AR22 application, see the next to the last post in this thread: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/22-conversion-newb-question/15-749650/ |
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[#17]
Quoted: Do this. My M-16 has run flawlessly with this setup. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I'm in the 15-22 magazine camp, with Boonie Packer Redi-Mag Better Mag II adapter Do this. My M-16 has run flawlessly with this setup. Best thing that evar happened to my CMMG .22 was the Better Mag conversion to the 15-22 mags |
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[#18]
Went to the Range today. For the most part it was a single shot rifle in FA. It would run semi fairly well. I had a few jams.. When flipped into FA then a new round would load, pull the trigger... nothing. There would be a live round in the chamber but would not go bang. So essentially it would shoot one, then I'd have to recharge it and send a live round out of the chamber. I had a two strings of 3-4 shots in FA out of two mags. I think it has something to do with the Anti bounce or sear trip.
I'm running a geissele SSF trigger. CMMG mags. Tried Federal bulk, Winchester Bulk and CCI mini mags.. All basically the same. |
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[#21]
I had the same issue with my CMMG 4.5” set up. I haven’t gotten around to diagnosing why it doesn’t work properly with the auto sear. It works well enough on a binary SBR lower that it’s not a big deal but I’d love to get it running right on my RR lower.
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[#22]
Below is what I did to get mine running
Colt m16a1 Better mag adapter Use s&W magazines and black dog drums Runs with most any ammo I have ever used. Here is what I ended up having to do to mine to get it to work.The 1st trip I got was way out of spec. I tried bending it to get the timing right but I broke it. I ordered a new trip and it worked right out of the package.Replaced firing pin with Taccom pin.Use Taccom plug when upper is in gun. This made a big difference. Switch to a JP enterprise med weight hammer spring.Cut about 1/3 off the firing pin spring.Replaced recoil spring with one from Lakeside MachineReplaced Disconnector spring with one from lakesideWith a dremmel and jeweler’s rouge I polished the following:The receiver frame rails where the bolt contacts (22 kit receiver) The rear of the boltThe feed rampThe entire firing pin so it would move freely in the firing pin slot when spring was out.The front of the colt factory hammer. This helped tremendouslyThe bottom of the anti bounce weight so it will slide in its spot easilyI also used a fine gunsmith's file on the area of the bolt that runs along the receiver frame.The anti bounce weight was contacting the upper receiver on the gun so I took some 200 grit paper and sanded the edges of the serrations on the anti bounce weight that make the forward assist work. To work correctly the weight needs to be able move freely in its slot. |
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[#23]
Quoted: .... I'm running a geissele SSF trigger.... View Quote A quick internet search shows that the bolt bounce that you are experiencing is a known issue in some instances of the use of the Geissele SSF trigger pack. I don't have any personal experience with anything except all standard M16 mil spec parts, which is what the Atchisson pattern .22 conversion unit was designed for. That said, a few things that I suggest you explore. First, as noted by another, make sure that the anti-bounce weight (ABW) moves freely. A number of years ago, I, too, had one that dragged and had to be filed to fit and get proper performance. The CMMG AWBs that I’ve bought in recent years have been okay, but I’d check anyway. If the ABW is not an issue, I suggest that you swap the standard M16 mil spec parts back in and try the conversion unit again. If the conversion works with M16 mil spec parts, it is likely that the Giessele hammer spring is too light to properly hold the bolt forward, thereby allowing the bolt bounce. You could try a heavier hammer spring and/or a heavier ABW (e.g., a Ciener ABW). If the conversion unit does not work with standard M16 mil spec parts, I would then conduct the extensive polishing noted. As another potential fix, some users have reported that the so-called "ball detent modification" has fixed bolt bounce issues when nothing else that they tried did. MHO, YMMV, etc. |
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[#24]
My experience. Model 614 with SSF trigger. I picked up a complete CMMG 16” set up and it worked perfectly right out of the box. Was a ton of fun so I set that aside for my boys to use and built a second upper with the 9” barrel.
That setup just would not run. Put in the bolt from the original upper and it worked perfectly. One by one I swapped the bolt assembly pieces trying to figure out what was causing the issue. Could not make it work. I broke out the calipers and measured each piece. The only difference was in the thickness of the barrel collar. Somewhere along the line CMMG had changed that. It might have been .020 thinner. With the thinner collar installed even my trusty bolt assembly would not function workout a pressure plug installed. I called CMMG and asked about the design change. The gentleman I spoke with told me he was worried it might cause issues and was gracious enough to send me an older one. The new spec allowed the rails to move in the collar if not held firmly forward. Hence the need for the pressure plug. Unfortunately it still did not fix bolt two. Was driving me crazy. What did fix it? Gorillas ball detent mod. The beauty of it is i can run nearly any ammo with out issue. Mini mags to suppressor and it never misses a beat (all CCI at least). Good news is it will work with the SSF trigger bad news is it might take some work. If you are still fighting it after all this craziness passes I could loan you my original just to see if works for you. Data point for troubleshooting. Had I not started with that one I would not have believed full auto 22 was possible. |
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[#25]
Thanks for the help. Emrisg emailed me as well. I’m going to try a few things this weekend.
For those that tried to bend the trip.. did you bend forward or back? Or is there a way to tell? I emailed cmmg and they actually recommended bending the trip... among other things... which I thought was interesting. But to heat it up first Thanks |
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[#26]
I have the cmmg kit with the three magazines.
I haven't installed in my RR upper. What would I need extra other than the cmmg bolt and mags to run .22 through my RR I just slapped 10 1/2" upper with a noveske flaming pig muzzle brake and it ran like a champ. Kind of new to the m16 shooting world as my stamps have just started approving, and interested in any advice on the .22 without starting a new thread |
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[#27]
Quoted: I have the cmmg kit with the three magazines. I haven't installed in my RR upper. What would I need extra other than the cmmg bolt and mags to run .22 through my RR I just slapped 10 1/2" upper with a noveske flaming pig muzzle brake and it ran like a champ. Kind of new to the m16 shooting world as my stamps have just started approving, and interested in any advice on the .22 without starting a new thread View Quote As others have noted above, a sear trip and an anti-bounce weight (or equivalent) are required for full auto operation. To the best of my knowledge, CMMG and Ciener are currently the two potential sources for the trip and weight. Best of luck. MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well. |
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[#28]
Quoted: Thanks for the help. Emrisg emailed me as well. I’m going to try a few things this weekend. For those that tried to bend the trip.. did you bend forward or back? Or is there a way to tell? I emailed cmmg and they actually recommended bending the trip... among other things... which I thought was interesting. But to heat it up first Thanks View Quote I have not found the need or desire to bend a trip as of yet. That said, to determine if the .22LR sear trip is at the correct fore-aft position, typically one aligns the back of the assembled .22LR unit with the back of a known good standard, 5.56 M16 carrier side by side and checks that the sear trip positions are the same. Good luck. MHO. YMMV, etc. Be well. |
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[#29]
I polished several surfaces... And bent the trip a little forward to, in my opinion, hit the sear. Which is what i thought needed to happen. Still a dud. Timing still off. ordered another trip. Will see if that helps. Bummer
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[#31]
I think I polished the ramp on my kit as well. When I say kit I am running a dedicated Cmmg 22 upper on my colt m16a1. The disconnector and hammer spring changes were recommended to me by the guy that used to own lakeside machine. He gave me a bunch of tips to get 22 running in my m16. I was going to buy a belt fed upper before he decided to sell the business.
On my cmmg kit the firing pin would not move freely in its hole. Once I polished it and replaced the spring it worked better. The shape on the end of the cmmg firing pin was too big. When I tried it the 1st time it would not even shoot in semi. Cmmg recommended that I grind down the firing pin so that the energy from the firing pin was all going to the shell at the right spot. The plug that goes in the buffer tube eliminates most of the bolt bounce. Guys I am telling you to keep at it. If I can get it to work anybody can. Making everything move smooth as silk on And in the bolt assembly and rails was were I really started seeing improvements ( after all the changes to the lower I mentioned and the plug that goes in the buffer tube). I used a dremmel with jewelers rouge. Good luck let me know how I can help. |
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[#32]
Thanks. I’m ordering a plug and will polish some more. Also ordered a new trip.
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[#33]
I guess I’m lucky. I have a Colt 9 million serial M16 with a SSF with the standard springs. I have a 4.2 inch CMMG dedicated barrel and bolt, on a generic M4 upper. I’m using the CMMG trip and weight with a pressure plug. I’ve had no timing issues or jamming that seems to be prevalent in running .22lr in FAs. I use Black Dog mags with the plastic feed lips. The 26 round sticks and 50 round drums. Runs very well.
I’m going to build an upper using a Colt A1 upper and have Adco cut down a CMMG 16 inch dedicated.22 barrel to 10 inch. Hopefully it will run as well. |
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[#34]
Quoted: I guess I’m lucky. I have a Colt 9 million serial M16 with a SSF with the standard springs. I have a 4.2 inch CMMG dedicated barrel and bolt, on a generic M4 upper. I’m using the CMMG trip and weight with a pressure plug. I’ve had no timing issues or jamming that seems to be prevalent in running .22lr in FAs. I use Black Dog mags with the plastic feed lips. The 26 round sticks and 50 round drums. Runs very well. I’m going to build an upper using a Colt A1 upper and have Adco cut down a CMMG 16 inch dedicated.22 barrel to 10 inch. Hopefully it will run as well. View Quote A couple questions, if you don't mind. Did you ramp/throat the barrel chamber lip, and do the smoothing and polishing of the sliding surface interfaces? And what prompted you to use a rear-of-frame biasing device (e.g., 'pressure plug')? Thanks, and best of luck with your new assembly. |
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[#35]
No polishing of any surfaces. Used just out of packaging I checked everything over for any burrs
I got the plug because of other posts on problems. There is some front to back movement of the bolt group without the plug. Never thought to try it without the plug to see if it is actually helping. All ranges are closed around here now from the virus. I’ll check when I can. |
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[#36]
Ordered a new trip and installed it.. I'm getting strings of 2-4 rds then the bolt is in the forward position and a live round chambered. Gotta be timing. Going to try a buffer plug next.. Jeez.
I want this to work so bad. With ammo prices where they are a 22lr wound be great tom play around with |
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[#37]
Hammer has dropped? Light primer strike? If so you may be fighting bolt bounce.
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[#38]
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[#39]
I had the same issues with my .22 upper on my M16A2. I built a dedicated CMMG barreled upper and the thing just would not run in auto. I tried three different sets of springs, at least that many different types of mags and ammo, and ran it with and without a suppressor. No change. CMMG furnished me a tungsten anti bounce weight, and with that I was able to get between about five and fifteen rounds on auto before the problem returned. The only thing I did not try was a different hammer spring. I run a Geissele SSF and am not willing to compromise the FCG for the sake of running .22.
At that point, I put it to the side for a while. I finally returned to it a couple of months ago and did the ball detent mod. That fixed it. It's like a whole different upper. It now runs like a sewing machine. It eats anything I feed it. It doesn't care too much about mags, either, unless the spring is worn out - the mag needs a strong spring to keep up with this thing. It's SO much fun! YMMV, etc. - but if you've tried all of the easy swap fixes and still can't get rid of the bolt bounce, you might try it. |
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[#40]
Quoted: I had the same issues with my .22 upper on my M16A2. I built a dedicated CMMG barreled upper and the thing just would not run in auto. I tried three different sets of springs, at least that many different types of mags and ammo, and ran it with and without a suppressor. No change. CMMG furnished me a tungsten anti bounce weight, and with that I was able to get between about five and fifteen rounds on auto before the problem returned. The only thing I did not try was a different hammer spring. I run a Geissele SSF and am not willing to compromise the FCG for the sake of running .22. At that point, I put it to the side for a while. I finally returned to it a couple of months ago and did the ball detent mod. That fixed it. It's like a whole different upper. It now runs like a sewing machine. It eats anything I feed it. It doesn't care too much about mags, either, unless the spring is worn out - the mag needs a strong spring to keep up with this thing. It's SO much fun! YMMV, etc. - but if you've tried all of the easy swap fixes and still can't get rid of the bolt bounce, you might try it. View Quote What’s the ball detent mod? |
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[#41]
Quoted: What’s the ball detent mod? View Quote Small ball bearing detent in the frame that acts as a detent/delay on locking and unlocking the conversion frame's bolt. Some google searches may turn you up something thereto in the archives here or elsewhere on it. It at one time became a standard feature on one company's conversion frames, or at least the machining to allow it did. |
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[#42]
Here's a link to the Arfcom thread that got me started on it. The pictures no longer work:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/_ARCHIVED_THREAD____Gorilla_Ball_Detent_mod_for_Ciener__anyone_done_it_/15-367122/?page=1 Here's a link to another site that contains the instructions I followed, again no pics (ball detent instructions are about 2/3 of the way down the page): http://bazookabrothers.com/pages/technical+assistance/3 And here's a link to another Arfcom thread that has the pictures of the steps in the modification: https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/Please-help-me-tune-my-new-22lr-upper/23-492459/ |
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[#43]
I wish you luck. My first kit did not need it but the ball detent mod was what it took to cure the bolt bounce on my second. Sewing machine is right, any mag and ammo now.
I do need to check it again with a reduced power hammer spring. Moved on to getting my lakeside uppers to run as well as the CMMG uppers. Full power SSF hammer spring was blowing out the case rims. |
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[#44]
UPDATE: Added the Buffer plug thing and filed the firing pin, cut the pin spring just a hair. It went better. I had one run of a full mag. seemed to like the winchester 333 box ammo. Didn't do well with the federal bulk pack. It's AMAZING when it runs.. unfortunately still too unreliable.
How much lube are you using? Maybe grease it down? I'm running out of ideas.. I've polished every part, added the buffer plug, tried a new auto trip. Suppressed, unsuppressed. Different ammo Was also thinking of getting a dedicated 22lr upper to see if that helped. EDIT: I guess the ball detent mod might be necessary, Looks time consuming and like I could easily screw something up... |
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[#45]
Quoted: UPDATE: Added the Buffer plug thing and filed the firing pin, cut the pin spring just a hair. It went better. I had one run of a full mag. seemed to like the winchester 333 box ammo. Didn't do well with the federal bulk pack. It's AMAZING when it runs.. unfortunately still too unreliable. How much lube are you using? Maybe grease it down? I'm running out of ideas.. I've polished every part, added the buffer plug, tried a new auto trip. Suppressed, unsuppressed. Different ammo Was also thinking of getting a dedicated 22lr upper to see if that helped. EDIT: I guess the ball detent mod might be necessary, Looks time consuming and like I could easily screw something up... View Quote It's absolutely not necessary, since plenty of kits run full auto without issues without it, but it is another way to modify the system, and something else you can use to try to tune the system better. The issue is almost always either the dreaded bolt bounce, which the ball detent mod might indeed help, or timing issues. An upper with perfect timing wouldn't even need the debounce weight, since if the hammer arrives exactly on time, the bolt won't have time to rebound. However, timing is also variable as the bolt starts to get dirty, or there are slight differences in mag spring loadings or cartridge case coefficients of friction, which alter the bolt speed and time it takes to finish chambering a round fully, depending on the ammo, the mags and dirty the gun's gotten. The debounce weight and/or ball detent mod are designed to provide a firmer, repeatable deadening effect on the bolt so that there is a wider window of acceptable timing for the hammer to arrive, over a wider range of conditions. If you have access to a high speed camera it might help to film yourself firing, and see during slo-mo playback whether the hammer's arriving too early or too late, and what degree of bounce you have going on. |
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[#46]
I also noticed several rounds jammed up between the CH and the bolt. Any idea what that is all about? I’ll try to get a pic
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[#47]
Quoted: I also noticed several rounds jammed up between the CH and the bolt. Any idea what that is all about? I’ll try to get a pic View Quote What other failures are you having? I don't know if you need to focus on bolt bounce if you are not having light primer strikes or untouched rounds in the chamber. If all you are having is ejection issues, I would focus on ejector, chamber and maybe recoil spring - noticing you said you feel you've polished everything up already. May need a fresh ejector, polish the chamber up, change the recoil spring / reduce existing. |
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[#48]
You can fill the front half of the U channel of the charging handle to prevent casings get jammed above the bolt. CMMG sells a plastic rimfire charging handle that is built this way. Epoxy is what I used.
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[#49]
One thing to look out for that hung me up for over a year on this, not that I tried it every day, quarterly at best and may even be 6 months between trips I could run at this:
Hammer Follow. In this rig, hammer follow can and did leave very light primer strikes. However, this is not to be confused with a badly timed hammer release / bolt bounce. I am not sure how you can tell the difference between hammer follow and bolt bounce without advanced equipment. But if you suspect you could have hammer follow: 1) Make sure your RDIAS is not wiggling around and is tightly held on the lug. / Test Function the system dry to ensure the RDIAS is capturing and releasing the hammer. 2) After addressing all other sources of operating friction, reduce your recoil spring length a few coils at a time until you don't get hammer follow. Use a spare spring to see how light / short you can go until you get feed problems. Go longer than that! |
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