Does anyone load for these?.
Graft has them in stock, have some ordered
Any help appreciated thanks

If they are the common "Magtech" brand or similar those are the thin wall brass cases.  I load the 410 version, never messed with the 12ga thin walls (although have done the full dimension heavy walls but they are not what your looking at if you are buying from Graft)

I use old school card, fiber wads, and overshot cards in 0.45" diameter (the inside of the case is larger diameter then normal plastic or paper shotgun hills due to the thinner brass walls).

I use a 303-Brit shell holder and a Lee 45-ACP carbide factory crimp die with all the guts removed leaving just the carbide sizer ring for resizing them after firing.  They use pistol primers not shotgun primers, prime accordingly on a metallic reloading equipment using 303-Brit shell holder.

RCBS used to make die sets specifically for the Magtech thin wall brass shotgun hills and if I loaded larger then the 410 with them where I couldn't jury-rig other dies I already have I would probably get a set of them.  The thin wall MagTech brass shotgun shells aren't designed to be loaded on a standard shotgun shell loader.  They use pistol primers so the prime/deprime doesn't work and unless you can remove the deprime stem which is too big and usually built into the resizing stage you can't resize them on a standard shotshell press.  Obviously dropping powder and shot and pressing in the wads is all compatible but you can do that without a shotshell press and obviously they don't crimp like regular shotshells either.  You use an overshot card to close up the end and then either roll crimp like a giant revolver case or use wax-paste-glue to seal the overshot card in.

For case lifespan reasons I usually do not roll crimp the case mouth over the overshot card like some do (if you do so a 45-Colt Roll Crimp Die does the job) but rather use my own version of wax-paste-glue to seal in the overshot card applied by finger tip as a bevel around the inside of the case mouth over the overshot card to seal the overshot card in.

Depending on exactly what I am loading changes my charge and wad stack. But generally I use a single 0.45" diameter 1/8" thick nitro card directly over the powder followed by a 0.45" fiber wad at least a 1/4" thick and then the shot directly on top of the fiber wad.  Usually I like to make a nitro-card/fiber-wad/nitro-card three piece sandwich but in the 410 with the short shell length there usually isn't enough room for that and certainly not enough room to use a full 1/2 thickness fiber wad like I usually use in the larger guages.

It is possible to load with standard modern plastic shotwads, but they will be a loose fit inside the thinner walls of the Magtech brass cases and performance is usually poor as a result, especially in the 410 because the powders used in it are far more sensitive to not having a good initial seal in the wadding for proper ignition and burn then the faster burning flake powders used in the larger guages.  So you might do okay with standard plastic wads in the 12ga with just some paper overshot cards to cap everything off, but for the 410 your probably going to need at least some 0.45" nitro cards to put at least one card under the plastic wads if you go that route to get a large enough diameter good initial over powder wad seal.

Thanks for taking the time to reply
I have a Hornady lock load progressive, with a 303 she'll plate.
Hope I can put another powder measure to put the shot in after the wads
Will have to see how many positions I have left.
Where is a good lace to get wads, or do you make your own?

Okay, first off, I did make a small error in my first post.  I stated to use 0.45" diameter 1/8" thick nitro cards.  First of all not all nitro cards are specifically sold as 1/8" some are listed as 0.135" thickness or similar which is really, really close to 1/8" and effectively the same thing and probably slightly more accurate description.  Secondly, I am using the 0.45" diameter as an expedient since I not only load the 2-1/2" MagTech brand of 410 brass shotgun shells but also have a large supply of Russian mild steel 3" cases converted from their native Berdan primers to use US standard 209 shotgun primers.  And their walls are thinner still then the MagTech brass.

Long story short the 0.45" diameter nitro cards work in all my full length metallic cases.  They are just right in the Russian 410 full length steel cases and extra tight in the MagTech 410 full length brass cases.  And they also work for black powder 45-caliber which I also run.

For someone who is only loading the MagTech 410 full length brass cases not the Russian 410 full length steel cases and also doing 45-cal black powder = For Nitro Cards For The Over The Powder Card(s) 0.43" size is the best size, not too small like 0.41" or too large like 0.45" Obviously being too large and having to cram them in is better then too loose and if one has a good compression/wad-seating die setup it isn't much of an issue.

For the felt wads which squeeze down far easier and the over-powder shot card which is at the mouth of the case where the full length metallic cases walls are the thinnest and the internal diameter of such case is greatest I would still strongly suggest the 0.45" size.


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Now as to where to obtain those wads.  Yes, it is possible to punch your own out of cardboard with a punch set, I have such a set and have done so just enough to prove to myself it can be done if I ever am unable to just buy them.  My time is way more valuable then to do it that way unless absolutely necessary.  As to who makes them and where to buy, the primary manufacturer is "CircleFly"(.com) which will only accept orders directly in very large quantity.  I've only been able to buy directly twice in my life when I socked in some orders that were above $200 and back then the bar was lower for the minimum order.

The primary outlets that are online order distributors for these wads are:


TrackOfTheWolf(.com) = This is my usual preferred place to buy from most often, they seem to have the largest stockpile of CircleFly wads and go out of stock the least often, reasonable prices and shipping costs.  Direct link to their wad section = https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/170  I got that direct link saved in my quick links.  Page #4 (scroll down to bottom of page to click to specific pages) is where you will find the 0.43" and 0.45" wads as well as the normal 410-gauge wads which are correct for plastic shotgun shells but too small and loose for a good seal in full length metallic 410 shotgun shells.  I think the ones you will want for the 12ga. MagTech shells are right there on the bottom of the first page.  I think you want the 11ga. size for those to compensate for the thinner walls of those cases.  Again I haven't loaded the thinwall cases in the larger sizes but I ASSume that its the same as with the 410 thin wall full length metallic shotgun hulls that you need a slightly larger wad to get a good seal.



BallisticProducts(.com) = This place has some traditional wadding options like thicker waxed nitro cards for the larger gauges that are not CircleFly products and rarely available anywhere else, so when I order some of that other stuff, combined shipping and getting some CircleFly wads as well is normal.



PrecisionReloading(.com) = Good outfit that also has some stuff that no one else has available so when I order some of that other stuff, again combined shipping advantage means I also get what I need of CircleFly products if they have it.



BuffaloArms(.com) = Sometimes when everyone else including Track of the Wolf is sold out of one of the CircleFly wads I want/need these guys will still have a few bags in stock, less people seem to go here for CircleFly wads rather then the other stuff they sell.  Now if you ever decide to load some of your full length brass shotgun shells with real black powder or deal with any other black powder loading these guys are my first stop for pre-lubed wads.  They seem to be buying CircleFly fiber wads and some other brands of felt wads and impregnating them with their own black powder lube in-house and then reselling them at a higher price point to cover their labor.  Very convenient for real black powder loading where you need lubed wads so you don't have to do all that yourself if you don't want too.


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Okay, now, you will need to press the wads in down on top of the powder.  Standard shotgun shell reloading presses provide for this by a long tube that the powder and shot are dropped through.  No such provision is made for this purpose on a metallic reloading press with the exception of dies made for compressing black powder when loading real black powder cartridges the old fashioned way.  These are unsuitable for pressing the wads down on top of the powder charge when loading 410 full length metallic shotgun shells since their compression stem is not long enough to reach deep down enough inside the case.

One of course could have both a conventional shotgun shell loading press on ones bench side by side with a metallic press and go back and forth between the two using each in combination.  Or for the purpose of just seating the wads one can always go full on simple and just use a short rod or dowel of appropriate diameter and a mallet and just tap the wads home, that was my first method.

But for the 410 there is actually a pretty easy solution.  You just get a "Lee" brand name "Universal Decapping Die" which is like a $15 die normally might cost a little more right now.  Unscrew the top collet nut and pull the decapping pin and flip it around with the blunt end down and the small pin up and reinstall and re-tighten the collet down tight - really tight.  Blunt end down like that and it is now a wad seating die for your 410 loading.  The larger diameter blunt end of that pin is only like 0.2" diameter which is a little on the small size but it works okay.  To go further you can have someone who has access to a lathe take some simple rod stock and turn a replacement pin that has a larger diameter of about 0.40" or so and then steps down to a short button of that same 0.2" diameter at the top to be mounted in the collet at the top of the lee die.  You can also get a 1/4" thread size machine screw of the right length with one of those tapered flat heads and chuck it up in a hand drill to spin it and take a hand file to hold up against it as it spins and reduce the head diameter to just right (about 0.40" in my experience) and then switch it around in the drill and the threads down on the other end till its just a slip fit in the collet on top of the Lee die and mount it up as a larger diameter plunger then just the Lee pin flipped around.  Not quite as stiff and strong to get as much solid compression seating as a replacement made from turned rod-stock that is full diameter all the way up to the bottom of the collet where it only reduces for just a short length on the end to fit in the collet.


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Anyway, how I load the 410 shells is on a Lee 4-stage Cast Iron turrent press with a 303-Brit shell holder:
----- Stage 1 = Universal Decapping Die
----- Stage 2 = Lee 45-ACP Carbide Crimp Die with all the guts removed, carbide sizing ring only
----- Prime on downstroke with pistol primer if MagTech brass. Use my 209 priming setup on a single stage press if its a converted Russian case.
----- Stage 3 = Lee Long Rifle Universal Powder Through Die With Lee Pro Auto Disk set for my powder charge.
----- Stage 4 = Wad Seating Die (A Lee Decapping Die Modified As Explained Above)

----- If I am loading smaller bird shot I just Use a Lee Powder Dipper (usually two scoops of one of the larger ones can't remember which off the top of my head).
----- If I am loading high end plated lead BB shot (one of my favorite loads) I have a small diameter metal tube that is just a little larger inside diameter then that shot and cut to length to hold an exact number count just by filling it up with my finger capping the bottom.  BB shot stacks in layers of three inside the 410 same as OO buckshot does in the 12ga. and follow up with a Lee powder dipper scoop of Cream Of Wheat (COW) as buffer and tap on the side to vibrate it down into the layered stacks of BBs to make that load a buffered load.
----- If I am loading buckshot (OO minimum to stack in an inline centered row) I stack the balls one at a time with scoops of COW measured with Lee powder dippers in-between the individual balls

----- Last of all of course I cap it off with a thin 0.45 overshot card usually pressed in just with my fingertip and then apply the wax-glue-paste by finger tip around the inside diameter over that card and set it aside to dry.

One nice addition is a small set of stamps and stamp pad to mark those overshot cards so you know what the heck you loaded in them later !!!  Exactly what stamps you get and what they mean is up to you just so long as you know what is what.

Oh, yah, forgot to say.  To get 1/4" thick fiber cushion wads.  You buy the standard 1/2" thick ones and split them down the center to make two 1/4" thick out of one 1/2" thick.  They split quite easily.

Thanks for the extensive tutorial
Just 2 more questions
Weight of shot?
Grains of what powder?
Thanks

Sorry I left you hanging there.  Somehow missed checking back on this thread the last couple times I logged onto this forum.

For the 2.5" Magtech all brass 410 cases (actual length is the same as a crimped 2.5" plastic case which is a little shorter) because the walls are thinner and you need to use old school card and fiber wads to seal over the powder charge the pressures are actually slightly lower then conventional plastic shells with plastic wads with the same load data.  Even if you use just conventional plastic wads only the pressures will be lower because you get a huge amount of blowby on the plastic wad base which isn't big enough to fully seal inside the case and such loads can have consistency and blooper problems as well.


So - Long Story short, you can use conventional 1/2oz. lead shot load data for plastic shells in the MagTech 410 brass cases no problem.  WITH ONE EXCEPTION = Some powders used in the 410 can only be used with Magnum 209 shotgun primers usually specifically the Fed-209A primer which is the hottest shotgun primer in existance with the exception of the Fed-229 core burner shotgun primer which is used almost exclusively in 8ga. industrial loads.  SO if you look through the load data for a certain powder in 410 shotgun shells and every load listed with that powder uses the Fed-209A primer or either the Fed-209A, CCI-209M, or Fiochi-617 primer then that particular powder only works in 410 in combination with a really hot primer and because the MagTech brass 410 shotgun shells use pistol primers.  Even a magnum pistol primer is not as hot of a primer as a magnum shotgun primer.  So that powder is not usable in the MagTech 410 shells due to primer issues.  Accurate-4100 powder is such a powder, they may be others.

Otherwise the other powders that show loads with standard non-magnum shotgun primers are good to go.

The following loads are ones I have used in my full length thin wall 410 metallic cases both MagTech and Russian Mild Steel (IN MY GUNS WITH MY COMPONENTS AND MY LOADING METHODS - NO GUARANTEES FOR OTHERS !!!):

----- 2.5" Shell ----- 1/2oz. Bird Short or Buffered Inline Large Buckshot ----- Alliant 410 Powder = 11-to-12.8 grains ----- This is my Preferred Powder Choice for the Shorter 2.5" shells and/or shorter barrel guns

----- 2.5" Shell ----- 1/2oz. Bird Short or Buffered Inline Large Buckshot ----- Hodgdon LilGun Powder = 11.9-to-13.8 grains ----- Decent All Around Middle of the Road Powder Choice Not As Good as Alliant 410 For lighter loads or shorter barrels not as good as Alliant 2400 or IMR-4227 for heavy or long barrel loads

----- 3" Shell ----- 11/16oz. Bird Short or Buffered Inline Large Buckshot ----- Hodgdon LilGun Powder = 11.9-to-13 grains ----- Decent All Around Middle of the Road Powder Choice Not As Good as Alliant 410 For lighter loads or shorter barrels not as good as Alliant 2400 or IMR-4227 for heavy or long barrel loads

----- 2.5"-to-3" Shell ----- 1/2-to-11/16oz. Bird Short or Buffered Inline Large Buckshot ----- Alliant 2400 Powder = 13-to-14.5 grains ----- This powder is less sensitive to exactly how much and of what kind of shot is loaded on top of it then most others

----- 2.5"-to-3" Shell ----- 24 to 30 pellet buffered plated lead BB shot stacked in layers of 3  ----- Alliant 2400 Powder = 12-to-13 grains ----- Other powder choices are possible with BB loads with stacked layers but this gives the best most powerful loads with tight patterns.  Alliant 410 or Hodgdon LilGun will pack less punch and IMR-4227 opens up the patterns

----- 2.5"-to-3" Shell ----- 1/2-to-3/4oz. Bird Short or Buffered Inline Large Buckshot ----- IMR-4227 Powder = 16.5-to-19 grains ----- This powder is the heavy payload heavy thumper choice for the 410, be warned it can sometimes have too much muzzle pressure especially on shorter barrel guns and "blow the pattern" on birdshot or BB shot loads and you may have to reduce charge for pattern sake with the bird shot and BB shot.  However, with inline large buckshot loads it is a real winner and you can push some hard and heavy loads.

----- As to H110/Win296 powder, I never had much luck with it in the thin-wall full length metallic 410 cases.  It's not really a primer issue either, stuff seems to need a lot tighter seal to get a good stable burn out of in the 410 and even packing in oversize card wads over the powder doesn't seem to give quite a good enough seal for it in the thin wall cases.  Even in conventional plastic cases I have only had real good results with it in the old 410 single piece compression formed Winchester hulls that are tighter then (insert crude joke of your choice here) with conventional plastic shot wads.



Please note that in some cases I have listed both a range of shot weight and a range of powder charge.  If you use the max weight of payload with the max powder charge you will be in the 13.5-K peak pressure range limit of the 3" 410 shell rather then the 12-K peak pressure range limit of the 2.5" 410 shell even if you loaded said combination into a 2.5" shell (if you could somehow manage to get it to fit).  Which if you are firing them in a modern 410 shotgun with a 3" chamber that is rated for the slightly higher pressure limit - No problem that is just like firing hot +P+ 38-spl loads in a 357-mag gun, its built to handle the pressure anyway.  However, some old Damascus barrel double with exposed hammers from the 1800's with 2.5" chambers that probably was never intended for smokeless much less the higher pressure limits of the 3" shell that could very well be a problem.  Use appropriate good judgment accordingly.

Now, you asked about the thinwall full length metallic cases and this response is directed towards them.  BUT if you or anyone else who might read this ever gets into the lathe turned heavy wall full length metallic shotgun shells that are bore diameter on the inside not oversize and that do seal well and fully with standard plastic shot wads.  Those in fact you just can't use any load data for the plastic shells because those actually INCREASE pressure slightly over standard shells everything else being equal straight across swap just changing shell type and you have to reduce loads for those by a little bit.  Exact opposite of the more common full length thin wall metallic shot-shell cases such as the MagTechs and the Russian mild steel cases.

Also, I have never used buffer in plain bird shot in the 410.  I have only used buffered loads with the stacked layer BB shot loads and with the large inline buckshot loads.  Buffering a load all other things being equal raises pressure.  Inline Large Buckshot has lower pressure then the equivalent weight of plain birdshot.  Adding the buffer to the inline large buckshot brings it back up to equivalent pressures as same weight of birdshot in my experience and helps the patterns, thus I buffer such loads.

The BB shot load is listed with a reduced charge range both because it is a buffered load and needs a slightly reduced charge to keep pressures within limit and also to give me the good tight patterns I am after because too heavy of a charge even if within safe limits can open a pattern.

All shot is lead, I have experimented with other shot types in the 410 but most of that is in conventional plastic cases.

If your really concerned about your birdshot patterns and you don't want to send any plastic downrange and your willing to get really tedious with your loading it is possible to use a paper wrap around the shot column over the old school card and fiber wads to help protect the outer ring of the shot column from barrel scrubbing like the petals of a modern plastic wad do.  You just take some paper and cut strips of a certain width and length and roll a strip up into a little roll and insert it down into the shell over the card and fiber wads and let it spring open against the inside of the hull and then pour your shot inside it.  Very tedious but it does work, or you can just go the easy way and put a 0.43" or 0.45" nitro card down over the powder to seal up the oversize inside diameter of the thin wall full length metallic 410 case and then drop a conventional plastic wad with its petals down on top of that and pour your shot inside that.

Edited to Add = I do load about half of my BB shot loads with a paper wrap.  But one should realize that I use those loads for predator and varmint work.  When your trying to put a load of BBs on coyote with a 410 shotgun using a red-dot sight one takes the time and effort to ensure their loads have every last bit of performance squeezed out of them and you don't burn through shells near as fast as if you were shooting clays or something so you can afford the extra time and effort.

Use 444 marlin brass if can find it. Perfect size for  the 410.

It's a little shorter then the MagTech 410 brass so you either have to give up some payload or wadding space.  And the primer pocket is large rifle primer depth rather then large pistol primer depth so if you have a shotgun which doesn't have quite enough smack behind the primers might not go off the first time every time, especially over under doubles on the lower barrel.

But, yah, it can be done that way as well.  Also, some people have managed to anneal and blow out 9.3x74r brass to make big long 3" cases and you can do similar with annealing and blowing out 303-Brit cases as well (although you just basically end up short as well like 444 Marlin).

So there are other options as well.  I personally have a big bucket of the Russian 3" mild steel cases converted to use standard 209 shotgun primers by drilling out the Berdan primers they come with and countersinking.  You had to buy that as loaded ammo though at the right time years ago when it was cheap, cheap, cheap and then had the pleasure of emptying it and then the work of converting the empty cases.