Hi,

I need your opinion about the swiss made carbine from Brügger & Thomet.
maybe soon in my safe...

I've read some good things:

AR trigger compatible
Fully ambidextrous
3 lug
Hydrolic "buffer"
Etc....

Some pics





Comes with a T1 red dot, delivered as you can see below











Trigger housing...







Hydrolic buffer



Bolt









Feed ramp and 3 lug


Seems to be adjustable...?



Very very good quality I think.
So, what do you think?

I am assuming this is a post sample?

Insert Ahmadinejadsortofwant...

Cost? I'm guessing 2k+

If around 1k might own a SBR'd version one day.

Not sure if available in US

In Europe, 2300 Euros with the Aimpoint Micro-TL...

"True" quality is not cheap

I want one.

Exactly how will you be adding it to your safe? Are you going to buy the pistol version?

I'm not sure on my choice, AR9mm is also a good carbine....
APC9 is a SBR version only, not sure if a pistol version is available on the market.

I'm not sure any variations of that gun are available on the market. I've not heard anything that would indicate that it is, or when/if it will be.

If you really are in the states then I think it's a no-go.

I'm from France, we have no restrictions on the length of firearms (sbr or Ar 16h inch=same permit)
Also no restrictions or tax on suppressor.  (You have a gun you can buy a supp like a magazine...)
But FA firearms is prohibed...
B&T firearms and moderators are easy to find in France.
Just want to know if Americans people know the APC9.

Might want to change your flag. That's where the confusion came from.

Lucky you. We know it, we just can't have it right now (although B&T got a new importer and hope springs eternal).

All, doesn't some ARFCOM guy from Malta or something have a APC9 though?

I thought that was the guy with the new CZ Scorpion Evo 3?

Right, I'm doing to change my flag, but I'm also going in FL sometimes...

Who is the importer of B&T products in USA? WOLVERINE Supplies?
I've found this on the web

a pistol version available in USA for 2014... from ARMATI
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/03/05/new-bt-usa-importer-armati/

I kind of like the pistol version, but some finger grooves on the front of the magwell might help it, in my opinion.

I agree, a grip on the magwell can help; vertical grip is also a good way to maintain an accurate shooting.

You're right. That's what it is.

From what I have seen, Armati will indeed be the importer for US models. I have no clue when these will actually show up here though. Given that it is now May and we have not heard anything, I am not optimistic that it will be a 2014 arrival.

Something else to consider is that in the past other B&T offerings stateside were very rare, expensive and poorly received like the TP9. DSA was the importer for it, hopefully if this does come stateside as a pistol it will have better distribution. I got a TP9 when they came over here and while it is an excellent pistol / SBR actually getting one was kind of a chore.

I'd be moderately interested in this if it comes over as a pistol and the stock is a snap on (like the TP9) with no modifications needed... of course like the TP9 this thing will most likely be $1500 or so.

B&T also makes a modern version of the welrod pistol. Called the VP9.

I don't know why but I would buy that.

hell yes!

B&T SD-Pistol VP9 9mm Luger = 2500-2800 EUROS

On second thought maybe I'll just make my own.

Patiently waiting for Armati to deliver...

Please let this come out this year

If its as reliable as the TP9, stay away
Crappy mags, needs to be run dripping wet, ammo sensitive

Huh, it's weird, usually I hear nothing but good about the TP9, however sometimes I hear it's a POS - it's either one or the other. I wonder if the unreliable ones are older models? From a design perspective, the TP9 should be a much better PCC than this APC9 as it is more compact and can be easily maneuvered with one hand.

Don't forget there are two different manufacturers of this pistol

First production:
Steyr Mannlicher TMP ( 1992 - 2001)

B&T TP9 ( 2003 ...)
The design of TMP was purchased by Brugger & Thomet
from Steyr in 2001.

Any updates on this?

Bump

The first batch of B+T parts imported by Armati USA have been delivered to RobertRTG and HKPARTS.Net. Might be at some smaller retailers by they got a lot of B+T rails.

The firearms were applied for at the same time as the parts, AS I WAS TOLD but don't know, but aren't available yet. Possibly the import application process is longer ? IDK

All I know is I need a better source than DSArms for TP9 magazines. They tried to charge me for an owners manual for my NIB TP9! I ended up getting Karl Brugger to email me back and they spent £5.00 Swiss Franc mailing me a copy. Their policy of no folding stocks without a stamp was utter BS. Some of us can run a mill and a lathe and make our own 922r parts..../rant off

VP9 in action:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aTJzMY2il8[/youtube]

http://youtu.be/9aTJzMY2il8

Someone posted a tour of the B+T facility in Thun on thefirearmblog.





Green Alps, blue lakes, fine guns. A brief report from B+T AG facility in Thun, Switzerland

 This was posted over a week ago, but is a great reason to bring this topic back to the first page.   The utilization of aluminum extrusions by B+T for the new APC series of weapons is exciting as production costs should be decreased if fewer machining operations are achieved. It is my opinion that the TP9 was very much a value at its non-panic pricing.  I waited, did my research, and waited some more and ended up paying $980.00 for my NIB TP9.  Speaking as a CNC machinist and an owner of several other Swiss firearms, I think the DS Arms pricing was a relative bargain.  There is some rather complex geometry to the asymetrical bolt assembly in addition to the broaching or EDM that had to be done for the barrel guide keyways.  There are tooling marks apparent in my example, but they do not have a bearing on function.  I am very happy with my TP9 but it is a very polarizing design.  I can 100% see the UZI and HK guys that prefer those platforms.  If you keep your expectations of what the TMP/MP9 series was designed for, it works great.  Are they as comfortable to shot as a MP5? Absolutely not.  Its tiny, cramped, and light weight.  It kicks more than you would think too. The stock kinda sucks too.  And you ABSOLUTELY have to put a micro Aimpoint (or at least some red dot) on the weapon to use it properly.  The sights are hold overs from the TMP that was intended to be deployed with no stock and a single point sling. So they are "less that ideal" to put it mildly.   It seems that every other market than the US had an Aimpoint included in the case with the weapon.  The APC series seems simplistic in comparison and HOPEFULLY  that keeps the price low.  Lets hope Armati USA keeps the price down.  Hopefully B+T brings this in as pistols and keeps the price reasonable.  Reading online I have been surprised at how much B+T weapons have been selling for retail to civilian customers in Europe who post on their forums.

Look at the 553 pistols Armati imported earlier.  Absolutely a world class carbine but HOW MUCH??? And you've been producing them for how many years?

$4194.00 MSRP!!!

So, lets hope Armati has some good news for us soon.  At least some parts for our TP9s!

Got some good news from Armati and it sounds like the new year will be a good one for B+T firearm fans. Armati USA is IMHO trying a lot harder than others to bring firearms we Americans have not had access to. Sure the 553 pistol is expensive but so is Swiss labor and the Swiss Franc is doing alright. Swiss firearms have never been cheap but is anything Swiss Made cheap? Remember that the TP9/MP9 is sold in every other market with a micro Aimpoint included.  


Hopefully this will get that guy who keeps posting the Gunbroker auction for two SPP magazines for $155.00 STOPS.

Let's hope - thanks for the update!

Awesome. I'm really hoping for the full line of accessories too...

Saw that they made the cover of the January edition of RECOIL magazine... with a nice article about it and a few other (soon-to-be) B&T offerings. Looks like good news to me. Just hope it's not $1500+...

I would probably still buy the 9mm for $1500+.  But if they came in under that I would buy the .223 version as well.

I have high hopes Armati will come through. I own two TP9s - one pistol and one I've recently SBR'd and they are absolutely ingeniously designed. The way the lock breach mechanism works with the barrel shroud is unbelievably complex - I can't imagine the Math needed to get that timing right. The version I have had a threaded shroud, so I run a Thompson Machine SG2 on mine; later versions had locking lugs for a Rotex silencer.  overall, I'm really in love with the TP9 and am still glad I chose them over an MP5 clone.

I'll pick up an APC, no matter what the price. Even if they are $3k.  Probably two.

With B&T, you're looking at quality that exceeds even HK.

I want a TP9. but want an SBR.
No NFA in RI.

I got some prices on parts:

Here's the price information you requested.

BT-30331 B&T folding stock complete for MP9/TP9(parts 30116, 30184, 30185, 30234, 30273)                                              $175.60
   
BT-30232 B&T spare parts kit (Small) to BT MP9 consist of:BT 30113/BT 30134/BT 30156/BT 30166/BT 30193/BT 30195     $163.19

BT-30269 B&T recoil spring to BT MP9/TP9                                                                                                                          $24.48  
 
BT-30127 B&T locking pin to BT MP9/TP9                                                                                                    $24.49


Best Regards,

John Flagg ~ Sales Representative
GMP Parts Company
Authorized Heckler & Koch Premier Dealer
Authorized Brugger & Thomet USA Dealer
FFL Type 07 / SOT Class 02
111 Quaking Aspen Way
Etna, Wyoming USA 83118
307-883-7500
307-883-7501 FAX


EDIT TO ADD:

Aftermatch Gun Club has posted information on the NEW B&T TP380 pistol.  Looks like a blow-back only .380.

I can already hear "why .380"?  Subsonic, not a military caliber so easy to find in Europe, and there aren't any modern .380 submachine guns. Even if you have a problem with the caliber, it is cool to see B&T trying new things.

Hopefully they're better now than they were a few years ago. I don't know.

I and a lot of others had trouble with the TP-9. Mine had to be sent in for servicing before I ever even got to shoot it. Got rid of it soon afterwards.  

That had to be extremely frustrating.  What kind of issues did you have?

SO we can each drool over what the other one can own!!!!!

Bolt became hopelessly lodged in rear of receiver. IIRC, may have also had trouble cycling JHP rounds.

What was DS Arms response?

Any ETA on the TP380 or TP9? I've wanted a TP9 (SBR) forever.

I don't know why, but that .380 has my attention.

Comes with an Aimpoint  As if the gun alone would not cost enough.