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Posted: 6/15/2022 10:48:03 AM EDT
[#1]
FFLs in Texas (Arizona, California, and New Mexico too) are required to report sales of multiple rifles* but there is no requirement to report sales of multiple receivers. Your FFL may report anyway, some FFLs treat receivers as complete rifles.
* If they meet criteria like having detachable magazines, semi-automatic, or being greater than 22 caliber. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 11:00:50 AM EDT
[#2]
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does-licensee-need-complete-and-submit-multiple-sales-form-after-selling-within-five
Does a licensee need to complete and submit a multiple sales form after selling, within five consecutive business days, two or more frames or receivers? No. Multiple sales forms (ATF Forms 3310.4) are not required for sales of frames or receivers as they are not pistols or revolvers. [18 U.SC 923(g)(3); 27 CFR 478.126a] |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 11:39:49 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FFLs in Texas (Arizona, California, and New Mexico too) are required to report sales of multiple rifles* but there is no requirement to report sales of multiple receivers. Your FFL may report anyway, some FFLs treat receivers as complete rifles. * If they meet criteria like having detachable magazines, semi-automatic, or being greater than 22 caliber. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 12:58:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Curious what the FFL, doing the transfer, will have to report to ATF? <----FFL Absolutely nothing. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 1:11:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FFLs in Texas (Arizona, California, and New Mexico too) are required to report sales of multiple rifles* but there is no requirement to report sales of multiple receivers. Your FFL may report anyway, some FFLs treat receivers as complete rifles.. Any FFL using the Multiple Sale of Certain Rifles Form for AR lowers is making a serious error. They are clearly not rifles and they didn't read the instructions. Further "some FFLs treat receivers as complete rifles..." means ATF will be up their butt with revocation proceedings. Misclassifying the type of firearm is a recordkeeping error. ATF has always held that any and all errors are "willfull", meaning ATF can begin revocation proceedings. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 1:14:59 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes I saw a sign pointing this out in a LGS. Is this an actual law, or just ball squeezing by the AFT? With that fast and furious shit, the .gov does not like competition. Unlike the requirement for the reporting of multiple sales of handguns, the border states requirement for certain rifles is not backed up by a similar law. ATF claims it is, and so far the courts haven't struck it down. It will be struck down once Trump is back in office and the Hearing Protection Act passes. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 2:08:34 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unlike the requirement for the reporting of multiple sales of handguns, the border states requirement for certain rifles is not backed up by a similar law. ATF claims it is, and so far the courts haven't struck it down. It will be struck down once Trump is back in office and the Hearing Protection Act passes. 
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Posted: 6/15/2022 2:29:59 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Further "some FFLs treat receivers as complete rifles..." means ATF will be up their butt with revocation proceedings. "Extra" data doesn't bother ATF. They'll probably just conclude they're trying "extra hard" to comply. 
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Posted: 6/15/2022 2:33:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Live in Texas and recently purchased a 3 pack of Anderson lowers for some cheap builds. Worked out to $127 shipped. Curious what the FFL, doing the transfer, will have to report to ATF? I did choose poorly on my FFL as they're going to charge $20 per receiver for transfer. No flat rate or discount. I need to do better research for a FFL next time before I buy a multi pack again. Can't they do all three on one 4473? $20 each is BS. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 2:55:05 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No they won't. "Extra" data doesn't bother ATF. They'll probably just conclude they're trying "extra hard" to comply. You think? How about this: 18 year old buys three AR lowers from an FFL who treats "receivers as complete rifles..." Do you not see the issue?  |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:01:11 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You think? Quote HistoryQuoted: You think? Can you show where that's been a problem for any FFL? How about this: 18 year old buys three AR lowers from an FFL who treats "receivers as complete rifles..." Do you not see the issue? I don't disagree that they'd be failing to follow instructions, in either scenario. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:02:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can't they do all three on one 4473? $20 each is BS. Being that there is no limit to the number of firearms that can be transferred on a single Form 4473, the amount of paperwork is no different from a single lower or a hundred lowers. Would you think the dealer should charge the same fees for one lower that he does for one hundred? I sure as heck don't. But I agree, $60 for three lowers that arrived together isn't a great deal. I would have charged $30 total. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:03:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...That would be "transferring an Other as a Rifle (or Long Gun)" which is obviously a different scenario. You are purposely conflating the issue. I don't disagree that they'd be failing to follow instructions, in either scenario. I'm not conflating anything. It's clearly illegal. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:07:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not conflating anything. It's clearly illegal. Alternatively, what part of US Code do you believe they're violating by reporting the purchase improperly on ATF's "Multiple Sale of Certain Rifles Form"? (Assuming they correctly transferred them as Other.) |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:23:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not everything "illegal" is treated the same by ATF. Certainly you're aware of this? Alternatively, what part of US Code do you believe they're violating by reporting the purchase improperly on ATF's "Multiple Sale of Certain Rifles Form"? (Assuming they correctly transferred them as Other.) The point I took was that any violation can be deemed willful which is their SOP. They can do nothing or revoke your license all up to what they want. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:26:22 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The point I took was that any violation can be deemed willful which is their SOP. Quote HistoryQuoted: The point I took was that any violation can be deemed willful which is their SOP. They can do nothing or revoke your license all up to what they want. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:34:50 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can be. Doesn't mean it will be. That is incorrect. There's a process they're required to follow. To my knowledge they consistently follow it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The point I took was that any violation can be deemed willful which is their SOP. They can do nothing or revoke your license all up to what they want. You agree they can deem it willful or not though correct? I’ve seen it play out a couple times. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:40:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You agree they can deem it willful or not though correct? If it's a violation, ATF can consider it "willful" whenever they want. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:45:47 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not everything "illegal" is treated the same by ATF. Certainly you're aware of this? Alternatively, what part of US Code do you believe they're violating by reporting the purchase improperly on ATF's "Multiple Sale of Certain Rifles Form"? (Assuming they correctly transferred them as Other.)  You think it legal to transfer a firearm other than a rifle or shotgun to an 18 year old? Wow. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 3:48:00 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely. If it's a violation, ATF can consider it "willful" whenever they want. Thats my point. Thank for coming around.  ANY recordkeeping error or omission can be considered as willful......and that means ATF can take action IF THEY SO CHOOSE. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 4:01:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ANY recordkeeping error or omission can be considered as willful......and that means ATF can take action IF THEY SO CHOOSE. Quote HistoryQuoted: ANY recordkeeping error or omission can be considered as willful......and that means ATF can take action IF THEY SO CHOOSE. Of course they still must follow their own revocation process. I still doubt they'd choose to consider the submission to be a willful violation, regarding "extra" data collection of AR receiver info, and you've failed to indicate why you suspect that they would, except that "it doesn't follow the instructions on the form" which we both agree is true. Quoted: You think it legal to transfer a firearm other than a rifle or shotgun to an 18 year old? Wow. (Try reading the words inside the parentheses.) Back at you. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 5:32:02 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: (Try reading the words inside the parentheses.) Quote HistoryQuoted: (Try reading the words inside the parentheses.) Try rereading your post #8: Quoted: Quoted: Further "some FFLs treat receivers as complete rifles..." means ATF will be up their butt with revocation proceedings. No they won't. "Treating" a receiver as a complete rifle seems in my mind that the FFL IS NOT properly recording them as "Other" or as a receiver in his bound book or on 4473's. Nor would he understand that receivers cannot be transferred to those under age 21. If he recorded them as an "Other".........he ain't treating them as a rifle is he? 
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Posted: 6/15/2022 7:51:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Being that there is no limit to the number of firearms that can be transferred on a single Form 4473, the amount of paperwork is no different from a single lower or a hundred lowers. Would you think the dealer should charge the same fees for one lower that he does for one hundred? I sure as heck don't. But I agree, $60 for three lowers that arrived together isn't a great deal. I would have charged $30 total. I think your post make you sound like a dick, was there a way you could of responded and not sound like an asshole? My FFL will do 3 for the same price as one and if he was like you I would go elsewhere. Click. |
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Posted: 6/15/2022 8:06:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think your post make you sound like a dick, was there a way you could of responded and not sound like an asshole? My FFL will do 3 for the same price as one and if he was like you I would go elsewhere. Click. I think your post makes you sound like a dick. I didn't belittle you or call you names. But answer my question..........Would you think the dealer should charge the same fees for one lower that he does for one hundred? And heres another question, how do you think FFL's should calculate the fees they charge for transfers? I you post "transfers are 100% profit" I will find you and rub your nose in it.
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Posted: 6/16/2022 12:56:09 PM EDT
[#25]
Local LGS is $25 per line item in his bound book. Fair enough...
Unless it s something they (new items) stock and then it is $50 per item item in his bound book |
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Posted: 6/16/2022 1:43:19 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Local LGS is $25 per line item in his bound book. Fair enough... Unless it s something they (new items) stock and then it is $50 per item item in his bound book It's this punitive attitude that keeps me in business. While I can appreciate the LGS wanting people to buy from him, tacking on a punitive fee ain't going to help his business, but it helps mine. Any of the local gun stores here could put me out of business tomorrow but are significantly higher in their transfer fees. That tells me one thing...they dont really want to do transfers. I charge $20 per firearm ($10 w/LTC, fire, police, active mil and teachers) I also discount for multiples that arrive in the same shipment. NFA I charge $50 (MG 5%) vs Store#1 $30 per firearm, $100 for NFA. Only accepts transfers from other FFL's. Store#2 $35 per firearm, $75 for NFA. Only accepts transfers from other FFL's. Store#3 $35 per firearm, no NFA. Only accepts transfers from other FFL's. Store#4 $40 per firearm, $200 for NFA. These guys think its hurting their business doing transfers. I think they are missing out on customer traffic from 2,000 guns a year. Quite often I get an email from a customer thats purchased a silencer online and overpaid. I make sure he knows what pricing I have and he's my customer from then on. No need to charge him extra. |
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Posted: 6/16/2022 2:21:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your FFL may report anyway, some FFLs treat receivers as complete rifles. Thats a lot of violations. A&D book is wrong inbound and outbound. 4473 is wrong Section A and #24. Basically 4 violations per firearm transferred. And if the buyer is < 21, That is a criminal violation. |
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Posted: 6/16/2022 2:24:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These guys think its hurting their business doing transfers. I think they are missing out on customer traffic from 2,000 guns a year. QFT Brick and Mortar only survive by getting customers in the store. |
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Posted: 6/16/2022 3:13:04 PM EDT
[#29]
I thought they were reported as 'OTHER' when they do the backgroudn check. They log the serial# in their book, but that doesn't necessarily go to the ATF
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Posted: 6/16/2022 3:16:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought they were reported as 'OTHER' when they do the backgroudn check. They log the serial# in their book, but that doesn't necessarily go to the ATF Frames, receivers, AR lowers ARE recorded as "Other" in the dealers bound book. And on the Form 4473 Que 4. as frame or receiver and on Que. 24 as Other firearm". Marquar posted that some dealers consider then as "rifles", which is contrary to federal law, ATF regulations and the instructions on every Form 4473. |
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Posted: 6/16/2022 6:44:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's this punitive attitude that keeps me in business. While I can appreciate the LGS wanting people to buy from him, tacking on a punitive fee ain't going to help his business, but it helps mine. Any of the local gun stores here could put me out of business tomorrow but are significantly higher in their transfer fees. That tells me one thing...they dont really want to do transfers. I charge $20 per firearm ($10 w/LTC, fire, police, active mil and teachers) I also discount for multiples that arrive in the same shipment. NFA I charge $50 (MG 5%) vs Store#1 $30 per firearm, $100 for NFA. Only accepts transfers from other FFL's. Store#2 $35 per firearm, $75 for NFA. Only accepts transfers from other FFL's. Store#3 $35 per firearm, no NFA. Only accepts transfers from other FFL's. Store#4 $40 per firearm, $200 for NFA. These guys think its hurting their business doing transfers. I think they are missing out on customer traffic from 2,000 guns a year. Quite often I get an email from a customer thats purchased a silencer online and overpaid. I make sure he knows what pricing I have and he's my customer from then on. No need to charge him extra. Sidebar, Curious FFL here as this 5% on an MG is a methodology I've never seen or heard of before. I assume this is to offset some insurance cost for the liability of you storing the firearm, but I'd imagine most NFA guys are accustomed to hearing $50-$200 for a transfer fee so there's gotta be some sticker shock when they hear that $25k M16 costs them $1250 to transfer. What's the reasoning behind that pricing model? Are you increasing your coverage as these items circulate in and out of your books, taking a separate policy on them, something else? Don't mean to pry too deeply into your practices on an open forum if a PM is more appropriate. |
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Posted: 6/16/2022 7:36:48 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sidebar, Curious FFL here as this 5% on an MG is a methodology I've never seen or heard of before. Quote HistoryQuoted: Sidebar, Curious FFL here as this 5% on an MG is a methodology I've never seen or heard of before. Ive heard of it before, thats why I do it. I assume this is to offset some insurance cost for the liability of you storing the firearm, Yep. but I'd imagine most NFA guys are accustomed to hearing $50-$200 for a transfer fee so there's gotta be some sticker shock when they hear that $25k M16 costs them $1250 to transfer. The same shock when I get my insurance bill or get a quote to increase inventory coverage. What's the reasoning behind that pricing model? Are you increasing your coverage as these items circulate in and out of your books, taking a separate policy on them, something else? I'm a small timer. If your $25,000 machine gun burns up or gets stolen, you are going to come after me. I don't want such grief, therefore I insure my inventory as well as inventory I hold for transfer. Don't mean to pry too deeply into your practices on an open forum if a PM is more appropriate. Not a problem. |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 8:29:40 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's this punitive attitude that keeps me in business. While I can appreciate the LGS wanting people to buy from him, tacking on a punitive fee ain't going to help his business, but it helps mine. Any of the local gun stores here could put me out of business tomorrow but are significantly higher in their transfer fees. That tells me one thing...they dont really want to do transfers. I charge $20 per firearm ($10 w/LTC, fire, police, active mil and teachers) I also discount for multiples that arrive in the same shipment. NFA I charge $50 (MG 5%) vs Store#1 $30 per firearm, $100 for NFA. Only accepts transfers from other FFL's. Store#2 $35 per firearm, $75 for NFA. Only accepts transfers from other FFL's. Store#3 $35 per firearm, no NFA. Only accepts transfers from other FFL's. Store#4 $40 per firearm, $200 for NFA. These guys think its hurting their business doing transfers. I think they are missing out on customer traffic from 2,000 guns a year. Quite often I get an email from a customer thats purchased a silencer online and overpaid. I make sure he knows what pricing I have and he's my customer from then on. No need to charge him extra. Personally I don’t like title 1 transfers as if I’m doing multiple a day, it raises the chance of a accidental screw up. Additionally my office is 15 min from my house, so for a transfer I have to drive and do 35 min of paperwork for 30 dollars. NFA I enjoy as I can justify that ride for 75. However imports is in my opinion the best. But even that is “eh” anyways. The firearm industry is just plain over saturated unless you have a specific niche. I only do it as a passion project/hobby. I’ve operated at a net loss of around 8k in a given year. |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 9:43:25 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Being that there is no limit to the number of firearms that can be transferred on a single Form 4473, the amount of paperwork is no different from a single lower or a hundred lowers. Would you think the dealer should charge the same fees for one lower that he does for one hundred? I sure as heck don't. But I agree, $60 for three lowers that arrived together isn't a great deal. I would have charged $30 total. Next time I do a multi transfer, I'll have to keep you in mind. I haven't explored all the FFLs here in the Austin area to see who offers the best deal. I'm sure a phone call ahead would have saved me some money. Appreciate all the input. Learned some good points. |
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Posted: 6/17/2022 12:37:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: .... here in the Austin area... I'm in Plano |
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Posted: 6/27/2022 9:26:57 AM EDT
[#36]
Shouldn't have to report anything, but I too charge per firearm. $20 each, $10 if you have CCW. $50 for NFA.
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