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Posted: 8/26/2018 9:04:30 PM EDT
[#1]
I believe gas tube will be first fail point.
Is barrel heavy barrel or pencil , what length, this could effect cooling, same with handguards etc, if it gets overly dirty youll get ftf,fte esp w/ suppressor. Ive ran RR SBR with mag after mag and it did fine, probably ran 4-5 mags back to back, but did bursts not js pull trigger and hang on |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 9:11:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe gas tube will be first fail point. Good to know you have spent at least a few mags in a row burst fire with no problems. I plan on sticking to that scenario. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 9:14:57 PM EDT
[#3]
It’s been a while but I used to have an RR M16 and before that an RLL. From personal experience the gas tube acted kinda like a circuit breaker. I’ve never pushed harder than a single beta mag followed by a 30 but at that point my gas tube got soft and started drooping. I never worried about 30 round mag dumps but after the first couple times I kept the 100’s for burst fire. This was with an 11.5” barrel but I honestly don’t think it would make much difference.
I still have the can I used back then (AAC M4-2000 18t) and it survived multiple 30 round dumps. 2 30’s back to back would get the baffles glowing cherry red through the side of the can. I would worry too much as the cost of your barrels is nothing compared to the RDIAS. I will say that after a while full auto looses its luster. Everyone wants to shoot your toys, nobody brings ammo..... |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 9:17:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Melted? To what extreme level of FA would I have to go to destroy the gas tube? Good to know you have spent at least a few mags in a row burst fire with no problems. I plan on sticking to that scenario. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I believe gas tube will be first fail point. Good to know you have spent at least a few mags in a row burst fire with no problems. I plan on sticking to that scenario. ETA - per other questions in your first post, heavy buffers, rate reducers, and adjustable gas blocks are your friend. At first a high ROF is cool but after a while you learn that slowing the gun down tends to work better. Otherwise a spare BCG and just go ahead and get a Geissele SSF or KAC FA trigger. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 9:20:05 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It’s been a while but I used to have an RR M16 and before that an RLL. From personal experience the gas tube acted kinda like a circuit breaker. I’ve never pushed harder than a single beta mag followed by a 30 but at that point my gas tube got soft and started drooping. I never worried about 30 round mag dumps but after the first couple times I kept the 100’s for burst fire. This was with an 11.5” barrel but I honestly don’t think it would make much difference. I still have the can I used back then (AAC M4-2000 18t) and it survived multiple 30 round dumps. 2 30’s back to back would get the baffles glowing cherry red through the side of the can. I would worry too much as the cost of your barrels is nothing compared to the RDIAS. I will say that after a while full auto looses its luster. Everyone wants to shoot your toys, nobody brings ammo..... Going to keep an eye on the gas tube to make sure it isn't getting too hot. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 9:25:43 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah after the initial range trip and mag dump test I would be happy with Burst/SS/Safe modes if I had it. I am happy it is so easy to get a reliable 3 round burst with the RDIAS. Get 4 or 5 sometimes but heck that's ok too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It’s been a while but I used to have an RR M16 and before that an RLL. From personal experience the gas tube acted kinda like a circuit breaker. I’ve never pushed harder than a single beta mag followed by a 30 but at that point my gas tube got soft and started drooping. I never worried about 30 round mag dumps but after the first couple times I kept the 100’s for burst fire. This was with an 11.5” barrel but I honestly don’t think it would make much difference. I still have the can I used back then (AAC M4-2000 18t) and it survived multiple 30 round dumps. 2 30’s back to back would get the baffles glowing cherry red through the side of the can. I would worry too much as the cost of your barrels is nothing compared to the RDIAS. I will say that after a while full auto looses its luster. Everyone wants to shoot your toys, nobody brings ammo..... ETA - get a CMMG 22lr upper setup for your RDIAS. Trust me! That was fun! |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 9:40:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After a while I could do singles on auto with a 14.5” barrel. I could only do that with the 11.5” after I dropped a reducer in. I have no idea how many cases of Radway Green and SA battle packs I shot up with the M16’s. Good times..... ETA - get a CMMG 22lr upper setup for your RDIAS. Trust me! That was fun! ps. Just ordered one so I hope answer to above questions is no. 
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Posted: 8/26/2018 9:44:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Melted? To what extreme level of FA would I have to go to destroy the gas tube? Good to know you have spent at least a few mags in a row burst fire with no problems. I plan on sticking to that scenario.  ULTIMATE AR-15 MELTDOWN! |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 10:11:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryStill, it should take at least a few hundred rounds, as fast as you can muster, before you even get into the blown gas tube realm. That’s assuming you’re able to tolerate the heat while holding the rifle. And, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re at the point where damage is being done to the rest of the system. If you run a bunch of mag dumps, back to back, every single time you go shooting, there might be a small decrease in barrel life. If you’re only dumping the occasional mag or two, there’s really nothing to be concerned over. If you want some more detailed insight, maybe take a look that the BFLV thread. Their rifles see more abuse than pretty much anyone here can claim. And I don’t recall them going through barrels left and right. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 10:11:18 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote History |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 10:28:21 PM EDT
[#11]
I'd shoot it however fast you like, you'll burn barrels up occasionally but if you can afford the ammo and a sear the barrel cost is negligible. I'd get a CHF PSA as my FA burner personally.
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Posted: 8/26/2018 10:38:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd shoot it however fast you like, you'll burn barrels up occasionally but if you can afford the ammo and a sear the barrel cost is negligible. I'd get a CHF PSA as my FA burner personally. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 11:19:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Ill tell you this. A CHF CL HBAR with an Inconel gas tube would push it quite a bit further than whatever its at now. That would be my F/A mag dump preference
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Posted: 8/26/2018 11:48:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Wasn't sure where this thread should go since NFA seems mostly about forms/BATF wait time/suppressor/licensing issues, hopefully this is the right place. I have a Spike's lower and a couple Spike's uppers (5.56/.300BLK) and am running a RDIAS. When I go out to the range I usually fire at least several hundred rounds. So far I have only dumped 2 mags, one for each upper, to make sure I could without a malfunction. Except for that test I always squeeze off 3 round bursts, but even firing short bursts the barrel/silencer get smoking hot pretty quick. I have to use an AFG since it takes a long time for the barrel/guard to get cool enough to touch. I've seen folks on YouTube purposely melting/burning/etc. barrels with insane runs of FA. I don't want to ruin my gear, but I don't want to wait around too long between mags for it to cool off either. Can I shoot it smoking hot and be gtg? If not, how cool to let it get before I can continue fire? How much sustained FA fire are AR-15 barrels (mine are black nitride) capable of without damage? Any other parts limitations/considerations I should keep in mind with extended sessions of FA firing? Thanks for tips, info, and especially personal experiences/lessons learned. OP, I have been shooting my RDIAS for almost 30 years, enjoyment for me has never ceased, no matter how bad the week was it will always bring a smile, less expensive than a psychiatrist. I have several uppers that I run on my lower (present lower is an Aero Precision gen' 2, Texas Edition of course). Use your good barreled, expensive, uppers for select fire, short burst auto. Get 1 or 2 or 3... inexpensive uppers, PSA is a good place, for full auto and rotate them out to let them cool off. My last barrel, BCM standard gov' profile 14.5 mid, I took out of service after 4,100 rounds of beating the crap out of it, like 5- 30r mags over about 30 secs, 22¢/r Wolf. No keyholes but it would only shoot about 16 mo side of old dryer, which is fine, will still probably use it. My sweet setup is 14.5" mid length gas, carbine receiver extension, Tubb action spring, H3 buffer, Geissele SSF. This runs about 900 rpm with 193, 750 rpm with Wolf .223. Using a PSA 16" upper (? gas port size), same setup it runs about 700 rpm with Wolf .223 Using 20" HBAR upper, rifle gas, carbine receiver extension, Tubb spring, H1 Buffer it runs about 600-650 rpm (chuga-chuga-chuga-chuga) with 5.56, it won't cycle reliably with most .223. This setup is great for the ladies, recoil is minimal! Cheers! |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 11:50:26 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ill tell you this. A CHF CL HBAR with an Inconel gas tube would push it quite a bit further than whatever its at now. That would be my F/A mag dump preference Still thinking about how much fun Eric had burning up that AR. He was practically giddy over it. |
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Posted: 8/26/2018 11:59:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP, I have been shooting my RDIAS for almost 30 years, enjoyment for me has never ceased, no matter how bad the week was it will always bring a smile, less expensive than a psychiatrist. I have several uppers that I run on my lower (present lower is an Aero Precision gen' 2, Texas Edition of course). Use your good barreled, expensive, uppers for select fire, short burst auto. Get 1 or 2 or 3... inexpensive uppers, PSA is a good place, for full auto and rotate them out to let them cool off. My last barrel, BCM standard gov' profile 14.5 mid, I took out of service after 4,100 rounds of beating the crap out of it, like 5- 30r mags over about 30 secs, 22¢/r Wolf. No keyholes but it would only shoot about 16 mo side of old dryer, which is fine, will still probably use it. My sweet setup is 14.5" mid length gas, carbine receiver extension, Tubb action spring, H3 buffer, Geissele SSF. This runs about 900 rpm with 193, 750 rpm with Wolf .223. Using a PSA 16" upper (? gas port size), same setup it runs about 700 rpm with Wolf .223 Using 20" HBAR upper, rifle gas, carbine receiver extension, Tubb spring, H1 Buffer it runs about 600-650 rpm (chuga-chuga-chuga-chuga) with 5.56, it won't cycle reliably with most .223. This setup is great for the ladies, recoil is minimal! Cheers! |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 7:28:44 AM EDT
[#17]
I used to think those nitrided gas tubes were a bunch of BS. Tom over at Spike's told me they did (4) back to back Beta mags and there were no issues with the nitrided tube failing. At that point they were getting cook off's due to the heat.
I tested them myself and they really do make a difference....however, I'm not interested in doing mag dumps any more either. I like getting the RoF down to the point I can pull singles and run bursts. You should get yourself a 9mm upper if you don't have one already. Cheaper to shoot and easier to suppress. I hate the blowback setup though and really like the new CMMG Guard's radially delayed blowback. Several threads on that here. Here is a link to some of my testing: http://c3junkie.com/?page_id=538 I'm using mine with a RDIAS as well and the Guard lower with Glock mags but may be switching to the new MEAN Arms Endomag whenever I get mine to test. 
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Posted: 8/27/2018 1:02:38 PM EDT
[#18]
I would not fire more than 150-200 rounds without letting the rifle cool down. You may be able to fire a few hundred rounds without ruining anything but why risk it. The hotter the barrel becomes the faster the barrel will wear. 150 full auto rounds in a row will get the barrel up around 700 degrees.
If you get the barrel hot enough and continue firing without letting it cool you could ruin the rifling fairly quickly. 5.56 cook off's can happen around 350 degrees so if a round is in the chamber with the barrel at 700 degrees heat transfer can cook off the round. When the barrel gets hot make sure the rifle is aimed safely down range if a round is left in the chamber. |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 4:01:39 PM EDT
[#19]
With blanks and a BFA on an M16a1 I have gotten a gas tube bright red and it slumped. I have no idea how many magazines it took. I only had 7 mags of blanks.
Uppers are dirt cheap compared to the RDIAS and the ammo you are going to burn. |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 4:06:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Cyclic rate plays a MAJOR factor in how fast a gas tube fails, back years ago I decided to run a Smith Enterprises aluminum bolt carrier to increase my cyclic rate.
It pushed it up to 1,400 rounds per minute, wwweeeellllll, a Beta C-Mag dump at 1,400 rounds per minute resulted in a gas tube that was ruined. |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 4:59:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Melted? To what extreme level of FA would I have to go to destroy the gas tube? |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 5:25:24 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: After a while I could do singles on auto with a 14.5” barrel. I could only do that with the 11.5” after I dropped a reducer in. I have no idea how many cases of Radway Green and SA battle packs I shot up with the M16’s. Good times..... ETA - get a CMMG 22lr upper setup for your RDIAS. Trust me! That was fun!  M16A2 with 4.5 inch cmmg 22lr barrel A cmmg 4.5 inch 22 barrel with a suppressor on the end makes a hell of a setup. I'd recomend using a bettermag adapter and run smith and wesson m&p15-22 mags. I've had much better luck with them over the cmmg ones. Above is a friend shooting my setup on my m16a2 lower. Silencer is a spectre 2 with a gemtech quad lug adapter on it as I was having issues getting the suppressor off. Even with that you need to pull it off every brick or two and clean the quad lug or it will be a bitch to remove. Anyway I don't know how I feel about those melonite coated gas tubes. I was always under the impression that the gas tube is supposed to be the weak link that fails before you damage everything else. |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 5:50:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Because I value barrel life, and my favorite barrel configuration is not as commonly available as others, I let the barrel cool down to touch after every 100 to 120 rounds.
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Posted: 8/27/2018 7:51:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJdMbo6Cj5U
A cmmg 4.5 inch 22 barrel with a suppressor on the end makes a hell of a setup. I'd recomend using a bettermag adapter and run smith and wesson m&p15-22 mags. I've had much better luck with them over the cmmg ones. Above is a friend shooting my setup on my m16a2 lower. Silencer is a spectre 2 with a gemtech quad lug adapter on it as I was having issues getting the suppressor off. Even with that you need to pull it off every brick or two and clean the quad lug or it will be a bitch to remove. Anyway I don't know how I feel about those melonite coated gas tubes. I was always under the impression that the gas tube is supposed to be the weak link that fails before you damage everything else. |
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Posted: 8/27/2018 10:12:29 PM EDT
[#25]
For my "mag dump" uppers, I used PSA CHF 10.5 uppers, put V Seven Inconel gas tubes on them and Colt double shield handguards that I got for $20 a set (IIRC) on the EE - the PSA ones don't insulate worth a darn. Then, just because I can't leave well enough alone, I took off the FSB and stuck black river tactical .070" custom tune gas port inserts into them. They work amazingly well, and so far no issues with gas tubes or barrel heat.
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Posted: 8/28/2018 6:47:10 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I used to think those nitrided gas tubes were a bunch of BS. Tom over at Spike's told me they did (4) back to back Beta mags and there were no issues with the nitrided tube failing. At that point they were getting cook off's due to the heat. I tested them myself and they really do make a difference....however, I'm not interested in doing mag dumps any more either. I like getting the RoF down to the point I can pull singles and run bursts. You should get yourself a 9mm upper if you don't have one already. Cheaper to shoot and easier to suppress. I hate the blowback setup though and really like the new CMMG Guard's radially delayed blowback. Several threads on that here. Here is a link to some of my testing: http://c3junkie.com/?page_id=538 I'm using mine with a RDIAS as well and the Guard lower with Glock mags but may be switching to the new MEAN Arms Endomag whenever I get mine to test. http://c3junkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/KynshotBlitzkrieg-A5-Tubbs.png |
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Posted: 8/28/2018 6:55:48 AM EDT
[#27]
FPNI. gas tube fails first. Shoot it. Keep it lubed.
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Posted: 8/28/2018 10:08:53 AM EDT
[#28]
I do about 3 mags and then I let it cool down.
It's miserable to hold a hot gun. I've one so hot before it started cooking off and oven mitts was used just to hold it at the magwell. Also use good hardware. |
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Posted: 8/28/2018 2:56:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Great info all around thanks folks.
Brian at CMMG tells me they have an Endomag in hand but haven't tested yet with the Guard. In the video it looks like a standard 9mm PCC upper is used. He mentioned since the Endomag has its own ejector the Guard ejector (on the bolt face) may have to be removed. Not sure yet if they will conflict. I'll post updates in the Guard thread already started as I learn more. |
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Posted: 8/28/2018 5:45:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Topic Moved
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Posted: 8/29/2018 11:42:22 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe gas tube will be first fail point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I believe gas tube will be first fail point. The "gas tube fuse" is a myth more than anything Quoted:
IIRC, the gas tube is the first to go in all of their full-auto tests. By design, it’s pretty much the platform’s fail safe.Still, . if anyone is interested search for colt full auto destruction or anything on the m4a1 test and you will see the old gas tube fuse is a myth |
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Posted: 8/29/2018 11:43:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any worries with my 5.56 upper with a can? Any problems/issues/tips to be aware of? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any worries with my 5.56 upper with a can? Any problems/issues/tips to be aware of? Quoted:
Can I shoot it smoking hot and be gtg? If not, how cool to let it get before I can continue fire? How much sustained FA fire are AR-15 barrels (mine are black nitride) capable of without damage? Any other parts limitations/considerations I should keep in mind with extended sessions of FA firing?Thanks for tips, info, and especially personal experiences/lessons learned. Any sustained fire, like 3 mag dumps will wear a barrel faster than just shooting in semi. The M16/M4 is not made for any type of sustained fire- see the fuckup in AFG when it was tried" (gotta have the m4a1 now) I generally shoot 8-10 mags back to back w/o problems. That will be more than smoking hot, so I let the gun cool. I've also been known to dump water on them to cool down faster. I shoot lite/med profile barrels, heavy barrels are no fun. I also shoot sometimes with a can. I also have a VFG so I can hold onto the gun when it gets hot. I have nitrite barrels as well a CL'd Those barrel will lose accuracy in 2-3K, and be toast by 5-7K, but I still shoot them until the necks start splitting on the cases. The bottom line is get 2 uppers if your worried about heat. On the F/A uppers I shoot until they get too hot to hold and let cool. I dont worry about damaging them as they are too cheap |
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Posted: 8/29/2018 11:54:16 AM EDT
[#33]
I tend not to run more than 100 rounds through an upper without letting it cool. One of the great things about the M16 platform is the modularity, just push two pins and you can toss on a new upper in seconds. I have two cheap PSA uppers that I take to the range if I know I will be doing a lot of shooting or when the mouth breather in the lane next to me wants to dump 100 rounds of tula ammo through it.
You can increase the round count by going with a gov or heavy barrel profile. Ive never been in the military but I believe SAW gunners are supposed to swap barrel after 200 rounds, and those have heavy barrels designed to absorb a lot of heat. If you want shoot extended amounts of fire without changing uppers you might want to look into the fightlite MCR, its a mag/belt-fed upper for the M16 with a quick change barrel. EDIT: yes a suppressor will make your firearm heat up faster, it pushes more hot gas back into the upper and traps heat at the end of the barrel which transfers through the threads back into the barrels. Not a reason to avoid a suppressor, but something to keep in mind. Some people choose to run piston uppers to help with this problem. |
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Posted: 8/29/2018 12:03:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some people choose to run piston uppers to help with this problem. |
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Posted: 8/29/2018 4:02:53 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: that will absolutely do nothing for the heat build-up in the barrel/upper. Its not a panacea BTDT |
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Posted: 8/30/2018 12:31:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the gun will get hotter/quicker OP I melt uppers for fun and shoot a lot, plus shoot corrosive ammo. Any sustained fire, like 3 mag dumps will wear a barrel faster than just shooting in semi. The M16/M4 is not made for any type of sustained fire- see the fuckup in AFG when it was tried" (gotta have the m4a1 now) I generally shoot 8-10 mags back to back w/o problems. That will be more than smoking hot, so I let the gun cool. I've also been known to dump water on them to cool down faster. I shoot lite/med profile barrels, heavy barrels are no fun. I also shoot sometimes with a can. I also have a VFG so I can hold onto the gun when it gets hot. I have nitrite barrels as well a CL'd Those barrel will lose accuracy in 2-3K, and be toast by 5-7K, but I still shoot them until the necks start splitting on the cases. The bottom line is get 2 uppers if your worried about heat. On the F/A uppers I shoot until they get too hot to hold and let cool. I dont worry about damaging them as they are too cheap |
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Posted: 8/30/2018 1:17:13 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You shouldn't lose accuracy in 2k or toast at 5k unless if it's an extremely cheap barrel or you are melting it down on purpose. The heat will destroy the barrel faster than anything else. |
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Posted: 9/2/2018 8:32:48 AM EDT
[#38]
Keeping the bolt open helps it cool off a little faster.
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Posted: 9/2/2018 8:06:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Keeping the bolt open helps it cool off a little faster. Works great, cost up quite a bit since they first came out. |
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Posted: 9/3/2018 7:36:28 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryI would just dump water down the barrel
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Posted: 9/4/2018 12:02:16 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would just dump water down the barrel |
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Posted: 9/30/2018 8:03:47 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 9/30/2018 11:42:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryIt appears to be a scam.
http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=890590 |
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Posted: 10/1/2018 7:57:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It appears to be a scam. http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=890590 Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=890590 |
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