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Posted: 1/24/2006 11:20:09 AM EDT
[#1]
+1 on politics. If you can, get your hands on Collector's Grade Publications' M14 and FAL books. Good stuff.
Why Springfield? Why not LRB or Fulton Armory? All are good (example), but LRB is the only one with a forged receiver. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 11:53:18 AM EDT
[#2]
so your saything MSG and FAST are getting MSG90A1's
even though the rest of the DMR/Scout Sniper community is getting SR25's and SAM-R's to fill that role |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 12:29:46 PM EDT
[#3]
That is on HKPros website along with worldguns.ru
The point is a PSG-1 is one hella accurate semi auto rifle for ranges under 700 meters. Anything more than that I would want a more powerful round or a bolt action. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 3:25:14 PM EDT
[#4]
They are both great M14's but I know that I cannot afford one! Phessor 
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Posted: 1/24/2006 5:47:53 PM EDT
[#5]
And Israel and Jordan issue M-16's..... You are really not going to like hearing this but when the Israelis tested the HK-33 against the M-16 and Galil, it came in last. It seems that if you get sufficient sand under the locking rollers, the bolt assembly will jam up super tight. This was also independantly confirmed in testing by H&K. Go find a guy who goes under the handle Hard Rock. He used to work for HKUSA and can confirm this. |
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Posted: 1/24/2006 6:04:16 PM EDT
[#6]
If you can find a copy of Ezell's superb book "The Great Rifle Controversy", it details the whole FAL vs M14 saga. Evidently, the Infantry Board found both rifles suitable for use, and bucked the decision to a higher level. The buck kept getting passed because nobody wanted to take responsibility for what was a politically sensitive decision. In the end the decision took over a year to make , and was left to the Chief Of Staff's office because that was the highest level the buck could be passed to.
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Posted: 1/25/2006 5:43:58 AM EDT
[#7]
My guess is that is the main reason HK is dumping thier old action. BTW, I saved Hard Rock's post on the subject. Also have a full blown G3 rant a guy posted on falfiles.com that is LOL funny. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 8:11:54 AM EDT
[#8]
G3s are more reliable than AR15 operation system.
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Posted: 1/25/2006 10:53:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Notice in the picture I posted of my 7.62 rifles there is no HK. But hey, lets talk HK, here is my all time favorite HK post:
www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5398 |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 11:17:49 AM EDT
[#10]
Don't hold back, tell me what you really think!  Phessor 
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Posted: 1/25/2006 11:41:33 AM EDT
[#11]
If you can't afford a GOOD M14, then I would say go with the FAL if it fits you and feels right, as I said in my earlier post. If you can't snap it to a good position, it will never be right for you. BUt, if it works, that's great. However, I see DSA's are getting up thre in price.
That said, the main reason I'm adding more of my jabber is there have been some comments on cast vs. forged receivers. If you get a quality one, do not be swayed by old tales and truisms. Cast can be as good as forged. Of course there are variations in steels which would make the whole discussion too complex without narrowing down to specific brands, etc. And, even then there are issues via production lot. I'll leave you with this one, in Browning Hi Power pistols, the cast frames can take more of a beating/hotter ammo than the forged ones. Is it the same? Probably not, as I said there are variations. But, do not be swayed by overly simplistic cast vs. forged arguments. One other thing. Do not think you have "found the total solution" as if by a miracle if you see an M14 at a gun show. There are wise guys selling re-welded (previously demilled via cutting) M14's. (The receiver is the re-welded part, the rest is "real" if you're lucky). If it is an original M14, which they will love to tout, usually an H&R, by the way, aaand they are not waving class 3 paperwork, run. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 11:51:02 AM EDT
[#12]
G3's are fun if you like recoil and really fucking slow reloads. Roller-delayed blowback sucks, by the way. People bitch about direct impingement, but the roller-delayed blowback has NO advantage over direct gas.
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Posted: 1/25/2006 12:30:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Delayed Roller Blowback is good enough to be used in the belt fed HK21 light machine gun. I dont remember belt feed versions of M14s or FALs being uesed around the world.
But if I did not buy my 91 i would have bought a Sprinfield SOCOM-II rifle. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 1:00:05 PM EDT
[#14]
Lebenon has the M-16 too they have a cedar tree on the lower rec. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 1:00:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Belt fed rifles? Are you joking or what? |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 1:11:36 PM EDT
[#16]
http://hkpro.com/hk21e.htm
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Posted: 1/25/2006 1:30:43 PM EDT
[#17]
OK, I did not know if you go the memo or not. Here is a news flash, belt fed rifles are a bad idea, that is why they are not in use, and why belt fed GPMG's are. That is also why HK don't make em no more.
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Posted: 1/25/2006 1:37:29 PM EDT
[#18]
WRONG, actually HK classifies it as a GPMG, so I was wrong on calling it a LMG, but it is still in production and the following is from HK's USA website. http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/special%20applications/hk21e.html "THE HK21E Belt Fed Machine Gun The HK21E is our 7.62mm x 51 caliber general purpose machine gun. Developed from the G3 roller locked family of firearms, the HK21E has a host of features that make it one of the most versatile general purpose machine guns in the world today. The quick change cold hammer forged barrel, combined with full select-fire, and burst capability, make the HK21E capable of sniper rifle-like accuracy if the mission requires it. The barrel can be replaced in seconds without gloves, into a receiver that is engineered for a minimum 60,000 rounds service life. Adjustable 1,100 meter sights, adjustable folding bipod and the capability of quick conversion from belt feed to box feed combine to make the HK21E simply one of the most uncompromising GPMGs ever designed. The HK21E is subject to limited availability. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- HK21E Specifications Caliber Capacity Length Width Height Sights Bbl Weight 7.62mm x 51 Belt Feed 44.88 5.24 8.26 Open Diopter 22.05 20.50lb Cyclic Rate 800 RPM " |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 1:43:41 PM EDT
[#19]
If you are right, and I am wrong. Tell me this, why is it the world uses the PKM, FN MAG, and the MG42, and their variants, and these same GPMG's are still in production, while at the same time the world does not use the HK21, and it has "limited availability"?
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Posted: 1/25/2006 1:51:09 PM EDT
[#20]
HK 21 is in service in Portugal and some African and Southeast Asian countries. HK 21A is in service with Greece. HK 21e is in service in Mexica and other countries. HK 21e and HK 23e are currently manufactured by HK in Germany for export.
Because the current trend with NATO is belt fed 5.56 based weapons. hence the reason HK devolped a new weapon called the MG4 which was 102,000 rounds torture tested by the Army at the Yuma Proving Grounds in Arizona. Delayed Roller actions have served with almost every elite special forces group throughout NATO at one time or the other which the FAL cannot claim. I wonder if SEALS are afraid of getting their MP5SDs dirty when coming out of the seas unto the beaches? Hmmmmmmmmm 
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Posted: 1/25/2006 2:06:48 PM EDT
[#21]
".......Portugal and some African and Southeast Asian countries. HK 21A is in service with Greece. HK 21e is in service in Mexica and other countries."
Color me impressed. Wanna see a list of users of the FN MAG? Or say The PKM? Why even bring it up, and then mention Greece and Mexico, and some banana republics? The discussion of belt fed rifles is a waste of time. "I wonder if SEALS are afraid of getting their MP5SDs dirty when coming out of the seas unto the beaches? " And why would you bring up the SEALs? You looking to be abused? So that was what, 15 years ago? Those days are over, stick a fork in it. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 2:13:12 PM EDT
[#22]
SEALS continue to this day to use MP5SDs. Care to see current pictures proven how much of a fucktard you are?
FBI uses MP5/10s Hundreds of LE SWAT teams issue HK weapons |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 2:25:31 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 1/25/2006 2:33:52 PM EDT
[#24]
This is the only person I have ever heard this from, I did a 2 hour google search and came up with nothing of the topic.
Second, almost any gun will jam given enough sand. AR15 style weapons are even more prone to this failure issue, a friend of mine who is Marine Reserve, had a failure to extract issue with the first shot he fired in anger in Operation Iraqi Freedom as they moved towards the far ends of Iraq from Kuwait. He was inside his duece when the failure happpened as well. Ill put my life on it that a G3 would have worked fine for him. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 2:44:55 PM EDT
[#25]
"'m glad immigrunt had better luck than I did- the M1A I paid over a grand for (JUST the rifle-and this was a few years back) never shot better than 6'' groups at a 100 yards- and that was whether I used surplus ammo or Federal match, or my own handloads- and the rifle as fired was set up with a Harris bipod, 3rd gen scope mount, 3-9x44 scope (no, the problem wasn't the scope- it went on another rifle, and IT was a tackdriver). I also had failures to feed, extraction problems- the thing was a nighmare. After getting no improvements out of Springfield (and being told if I wanted it accurate I should have bought the Match version) and having a friend who was having the same sorts of problems with a Match M1A- I sold it and got a "good" rifle!"
artman |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 2:49:00 PM EDT
[#26]
+1. There was no way in heck the Brass would accept a foreign made weapon, hence the M14 was adopted. I like both weapons and they are both good performers. But put simply the FAL is easier and quicker to produce because of the mfr processes involved. Neither one ever were (or ever will be) true assault rifles falling more into the old battle rifle category with the M1 garand. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 2:51:55 PM EDT
[#27]
http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=237348&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
US Navy SEALS in action in the sand no less. Looks like some delayed roller action as well. Funny how the M14 it was an issue of being american made, guess that was not to important for the XM9 pistol trials, and the selection of the M243 and M240 GPMGs. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 3:23:25 PM EDT
[#28]
Go to the newsstand, and take a look at that big dorky rag titled COMBAT ANNUAL, or some such thing. Big write up on the HK in there, and mention of the problem. Again, there is a reason why HK is dropping the design and moving on to other things.
I addressed that on page two:
OK, I will raise your SEAL in training in the US with a 9mm with something more on topic, 7.62mm NATO rifles in Iraq in use by US Special Forces.  
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Posted: 1/25/2006 3:35:56 PM EDT
[#29]
M1A is a fine platform but dated.
The thing is you act like the American Military is the only army in the world. Our boys might be the best but when it comes to small arms they are often out gunned. Is the M16 series the best 5.56 weapon out there? Fuck no Is the M9 the best 9mm combat pistol out there? Double Fuck no The Sig Sauer 55X series is a better 5.56 weapon The Glock is a better combat pistol |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 3:39:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Exercise Destined Glory (Loyal Midas) 2005
http://hkpro.websolv.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=288746&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 Looks like several NATO members using HK weapons, in the sand no less too. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:04:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Turks with roller lockers huh? Are the Turks good a picking infantry small arms? |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:10:14 PM EDT
[#32]
Maybe you missed the Italians in those pictures as well, both which are NATO members.
G3 is still standard issue to several NATO countries, the FAL and M14 are not, face the facts bro. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:16:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Yeah, am trying to follow along, Turks are cutting edge and all that. So, I ask again, the Turks are good at picking infantry weapons, right?
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:21:01 PM EDT
[#34]
The fact that they use 7.62 over 5.56 is a plus one IMO. Even though I am not Turkish, on their behalf, the Ottoman Empire did rule a sizeable chuck of the known world at one time.
So are the US Navy SEALS bad at using the MP5 platform? What about the FBI, Customs, BATF, Border Patrol, Homeland Security, and local law enforcement? |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:28:56 PM EDT
[#35]
OK, I am prepared to go along with that, and like you said, Ottoman Empire and all that. Oh BTW, check this out: www.dozame.org/article.php/20050926134642298 So, maybe you do have a good point about the Turks after all.
The SEALs have showned some good taste in the past:  I won't claim to know or care jack about all those other outfits you named. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:39:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Face the facts, things like NATO countries such as Spain, and Germany have replaced their roller locking rifles with more modern designs? Or maybe you mean that the fact is HK is rapidly dropping their roller locking weapons from their line up? Or perhaps you mean facts like the M14 is currently being used by the 82nd, 101st, etc, etc, to kill enemies of the world on a daily basis? Or perhaps you mean to point out the MP5 has almost been totally phased out of SEAL use? And to top it all, of all things, the Ottoman Empire is replacing thier G3's with M4 Carbines! Stick a fork in it comes to mind here. Now, HK does have a good idea, that is piggy backing on the most successful 5.56 there is, that is making an upper they can sell to Colt's users. You know, if you can't beat join em. You are too much fun! |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:52:20 PM EDT
[#37]
Only because Hk has devolped a newer line of weapons. The DRBF has been used for well over 50 years, so its only fair to say that something better come along, but it sure as shit is not a M14 or FAL.
M14s are only getting used because, well we still have them in storage with nothing better to do. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 4:54:18 PM EDT
[#38]
That's right, it is a Colt M4, in the case of the cutting edge Turks anyhow. Oh yeah, and why does HK have a "newer line"? And why did the Ottoman Empire not buy those? |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 5:10:11 PM EDT
[#39]
I have no idea, but an M4 is not an improvement IMO.
SOCOM needs a new 5.56/7.62 platform, did they buy FALS or M14s? |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 5:24:37 PM EDT
[#40]
Seems the majority of western HSLD orgs have a differing opinion as they almost all use the M-16 series. Ask the SAS. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 5:32:20 PM EDT
[#41]
You know better then the Turks I take it? |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 5:46:48 PM EDT
[#42]
the point is is the best military units in the world us the AR, with the budgets and freedom these units have, they are goign to get the best gear that is availible
the MP5 is being phased out, and as you can see, the ar is filling thouse roles The rest of the world that is filled with F'ing ammetures using the G3, |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 7:07:04 PM EDT
[#43]
What is replacing the MP5, M4s?
Suppressed 9mm out performs most 5.56 subsonic ammo. The MP5SD is a very quite weapon and last i checked no one has made a better smg than it. And again, SEALS still use MP5s to this very day, but of course they do use M14s as well. SOCOM has deamed the M4 a bad setup hence the SCAR program. M4s sucks, 14.5" is to short for veloctiy, and the failure rate is even higher due to the added heat to the reciever. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 9:34:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Nope, and they damned sure didn't buy roller locked HK rifles either. What's your point? |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 10:06:18 PM EDT
[#45]
HK delayed roller is still produced and used by some of the most elite forces in the world even if its not a G3 rifle. It continues to live on in one life or another.
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Posted: 1/25/2006 10:22:00 PM EDT
[#46]
The MP5 is still the SMG by which all others are judged, but since most users desire the SMG for its small size and light weight, it is being replaced by the M4 and M4 CQB-R, as well as the HK416, all firing full powered munitions. In some cases a suppressor is used to mediate the muzzle blast, although the supersonic crack is still present.
The SIG is NOT better than the M4, only different. It simply weighs too much and can''t be easily adapted to use the same accessories as the M4. There was a time, not too long agao, when the Government was looking into its options regarding the 55X, but it appears that the HK416 has completely eclipsed the SIG. Cool beans. On the topic of the M14, it is once again in use because they are what the accountants call "sunk costs." They were bought and paid for before most of the men carrying them were born. They are exceedingly heavy, not as accurate as the M4, and the round they use doesn't come into its own until over 100M... not something we need when a long shot is 30M. The next DMR's will be 5.56MM. The M14 in sniper roles will eventually be replaced by the KAC MK 11's and SASS. The day of the battle rifle is closing. Indeed, all of the major battle rifles were rendered obsolete before they were designed. The future will belong to short weapons capable of being used in a police action. Long range will remain the terrain of the MG, and the sniper rifle, with the help of GPS and laser range finders. The rifle will continue to grow shorter, and more people will grouse, but the fact will remain that we need not ask a rifle, let alone the operator, to be prepared for a 500M shot on a torso when his war will be fought at 5M. To sum up my article: "We live in a 300M world." Pick your tools accordingly. |
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Posted: 1/25/2006 10:25:10 PM EDT
[#47]
What exactly are you trying to accomplish by continuing to bring up the MP5? This discussion was about battle rifles, not submachine guns. The G3 is just as obsolete as the M14 and the FAL. However, the M14 is still in (limited) use by a world power, and the G3 is not. Norway, Portugal, and Greece may still use the G3, but they are not world powers. End of discussion. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 5:56:34 AM EDT
[#48]
The M4 is replacing the MP5 in some situations, such as:
www.forcerecon.com/strongmenarmed3.htm |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 7:57:47 AM EDT
[#49]
I bring up the MP5, because without the G3 there would be no MP5.
I agree about 9mm lack of power, thats why the FBI went to 10mm. |
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Posted: 1/26/2006 8:38:42 AM EDT
[#50]
There is a lot to disagree with here, but, nevertheless, I hope its main point is true. This is good news for the person who can hit reliably with his 7.62 Battle Rifle out to 500M and beyond. |
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