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Posted: 1/27/2017 7:59:20 AM EDT
[#1]
Been a shotgun hunter for six decades and have shot thousands through them. These are my humble opinions.
The older 870's and 1100's were tough as nails. Owned 8-9 870's and never once had a part break. Bottom ejection guns like an Ithaca 37 and BPS were jammamatics. Seemed bottom ejection timing was easy to knock off. Sold all of them. Browning A5. Great guns. John Browning was the man! Benelli thousands of rounds and keeps on ticking. Later Browning gas models-iffy. Moosbergs. Felt too clunky and cheap, so never owned one. Remington 11-87. Killed a boatload of turkeys. Just my 2 cents and about what it's worth. |
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Posted: 1/27/2017 10:11:07 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Been a shotgun hunter for six decades and have shot thousands through them. These are my humble opinions. The older 870's and 1100's were tough as nails. Owned 8-9 870's and never once had a part break. Bottom ejection guns like an Ithaca 37 and BPS were jammamatics. Seemed bottom ejection timing was easy to knock off. Sold all of them. Browning A5. Great guns. John Browning was the man! Benelli thousands of rounds and keeps on ticking. Later Browning gas models-iffy. Moosbergs. Felt too clunky and cheap, so never owned one. Remington 11-87. Killed a boatload of turkeys. Just my 2 cents and about what it's worth. Interesting. I spent the better part of 20 years abusing BPSs in duck blinds without issue, and I've never had one come in with feed/eject issues. |
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Posted: 1/27/2017 2:37:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting. I spent the better part of 20 years abusing BPSs in duck blinds without issue, and I've never had one come in with feed/eject issues. On high volume shooting the forked shell lifter can get bent and set off all kinds of jambs and double feeds. I've heard that BPS's fail quite frequently in Argentina during high volume dove shoots. Apparently the lifter loses temper and then it starts dicking up. |
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Posted: 1/27/2017 3:49:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Apparently the lifter loses temper and then it starts dicking up. I'd be quite interested to find out more about this. |
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Posted: 1/27/2017 4:42:33 PM EDT
[#5]
I really can't wait to hear some of the numbers on round counts and parts breakages
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Posted: 1/27/2017 9:41:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
$300 is cheaper than $5 and 5 minutes? Must have been home schooled. Time is money. Glitches cost. When his clients pay, they pay for the weapon to go bang and have a good time, not for the RO to un-fubar it or go get another one. When the guns begin acting up, it costs more than parts and downtime. Just my .02 |
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Posted: 1/28/2017 2:40:17 AM EDT
[#7]
Based on the models they've used I'm not surprised the M4 is the most durable. Sounds like it's almost as tough as some of the mid-to-high end O/Us out there, which few to no autoloaders can claim.
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Posted: 1/28/2017 3:52:49 AM EDT
[#8]
Saiga 12s can be supremely reliable with a short barrel, but it takes quite a bit of work to do it right. They are generally very long lasting if the factory springs are retained, port surface area increases have not been excessive, and nothing stupid has been done to the action. They can also run 2-3/4 dram ammo with a sub-8" barrel and factory springs. That last part is not common and as far as I know there is only one example of that being fact.
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Posted: 1/29/2017 11:34:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Ron, you mentioned that the pump action guns see more use by far, but could you give a rough estimate on the round counts for the M4's?
I'm curious to know just how durable they are. Max |
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Posted: 1/31/2017 8:19:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On high volume shooting the forked shell lifter can get bent and set off all kinds of jambs and double feeds. I've heard that BPS's fail quite frequently in Argentina during high volume dove shoots. Apparently the lifter loses temper and then it starts dicking up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Interesting. I spent the better part of 20 years abusing BPSs in duck blinds without issue, and I've never had one come in with feed/eject issues. |
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Posted: 2/1/2017 3:34:30 AM EDT
[#11]
Thank you for the info.
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Posted: 2/1/2017 11:37:10 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Idk about "loosing temper" but I've seen plenty come in for repair due to bent lifters. Occasionally a shell stop would be the culprit. In Argentina you can fire off a couple thousand rounds in short order, apparently the thin arms on the BPS lifter can overheat losing their temper and bending just from the act of cycling. |
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Posted: 2/1/2017 5:18:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In Argentina you can fire off a couple thousand rounds in short order, apparently the thin arms on the BPS lifter can overheat losing their temper and bending just from the act of cycling. No. Spring steel is generally tempered at 700-1000 degrees F depending on steel type. No way the arms on the inside of the action are going to get to critical temp. No way. No, more likely is poor tempering in the first place. |
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Posted: 2/1/2017 6:02:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In Argentina you can fire off a couple thousand rounds in short order, apparently the thin arms on the BPS lifter can overheat losing their temper and bending just from the act of cycling. Uh, yeah... no. |
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Posted: 2/1/2017 8:18:16 PM EDT
[#15]
Tag.
Thanks again Henderson Defense for taking your time to share this exceptional information on real life high use firearms. Txl |
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Posted: 2/1/2017 8:30:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Thanks for the post. Great real world information.
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Posted: 2/1/2017 9:40:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Thanks again for your write ups
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Posted: 2/2/2017 1:59:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Have you ever had the other Benelli models on the range, like the M1, M2, or M3 Convertible? If so, how did they hold up?
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Posted: 2/2/2017 8:41:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. Spring steel is generally tempered at 700-1000 degrees F depending on steel type. No way the arms on the inside of the action are going to get to critical temp. No way. No, more likely is poor tempering in the first place. I doubt they are tempered to spring temper since you can bend the lifter by hand without fracturing them. They are likey either case hardened or mildly tempered for wear resistance. All it takes is a slight bend so that the lifter tip doesn't recess fully into the top of the receiver and it will knock the shell off the extractor causing jambs. The Ithaca lifters were much stronger on the 37 but I have still replaced those for bending as well. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 9:46:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Thank you for taking the time to write up another topic about shotgun high round count. I've enjoyed reading your other thread about high round count in AR's.
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Posted: 2/2/2017 10:10:50 PM EDT
[#21]
Love these threads. You need pictures of parts failures.
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Posted: 2/2/2017 10:24:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt they are tempered to spring temper since you can bend the lifter by hand without fracturing them. They are likey either case hardened or mildly tempered for wear resistance. All it takes is a slight bend so that the lifter tip doesn't recess fully into the top of the receiver and it will knock the shell off the extractor causing jambs. The Ithaca lifters were much stronger on the 37 but I have still replaced those for bending as well. This makes no sense. CASE hardened? What? Do you even now what that is? "Mildly tempered?" What even is that? Good grief... |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 10:26:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Thank you. I love reading your threads.
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Posted: 2/3/2017 1:59:39 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you ever had the other Benelli models on the range, like the M1, M2, or M3 Convertible? If so, how did they hold up? To be honest, because the Benelli M4 has never failed, we've never purchased the other models. When I started these threads, it was to give advice for the guy/gal on a limited budget about purchase options. That being said, it's not a cheap shotgun. Even when I was making "decent" money, I probably still wouldn't have bought one at a price tag of $1,500. If it was a duty weapon and my life depended on it, I would beg, borrow and steal to make sure I had one. V/R Ron |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 4:00:27 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be honest, because the Benelli M4 has never failed, we've never purchased the other models. When I started these threads, it was to give advice for the guy/gal on a limited budget about purchase options. That being said, it's not a cheap shotgun. Even when I was making "decent" money, I probably still wouldn't have bought one at a price tag of $1,500. If it was a duty weapon and my life depended on it, I would beg, borrow and steal to make sure I had one. V/R Ron Protip: If the factory mag spring ever wears out (when it starts having FTFs on the last round; mine finally reached that point recently), grab the Wolff-made replacement from Carriercomp. Big upgrade, extra reliable feeding, and you lose no capacity even though it's a good bit longer. Being $12 doesn't hurt either. |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 10:23:50 AM EDT
[#26]
Very interesting, OP. Would love to see some actual round counts, though.
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Posted: 2/3/2017 2:21:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Ron,
With John Wick Ch 2 about to drop in the theaters, do you have a Kel-Tec KSG on site? I recall the the original John Wick movie was the first cinematic appearance of the KSG. Would be curious how durable it is. |
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Posted: 2/5/2017 5:29:54 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you ever had the other Benelli models on the range, like the M1, M2, or M3 Convertible? If so, how did they hold up? Any of the inertia guns should be bulletproof barring damage, manufacturing defects, or shoddy aftermarket replacement parts. |
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Posted: 2/6/2017 3:43:54 PM EDT
[#29]
Thanks for the input Ron.
CD |
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Posted: 2/6/2017 9:39:17 PM EDT
[#30]
Ron
What kind of round count do your Mossberg 500's & Remington 870's see on a weekly? Or Monthly basis? What round do you use? I enjoyed reading your post in the rifle section. Great info. Nice to see someone else going through millions of rounds a year. NYPD uses over 10 million rounds a year. Thanks John |
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Posted: 2/6/2017 11:22:50 PM EDT
[#31]
duplicate
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Posted: 2/6/2017 11:25:36 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ron What kind of round count do your Mossberg 500's & Remington 870's see on a weekly? Or Monthly basis? What round do you use? I enjoyed reading your post in the rifle section. Great info. Nice to see someone else going through millions of rounds a year. NYPD uses over 10 million rounds a year. Thanks John 
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Posted: 2/6/2017 11:44:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn......a 2 hour delayed double post. Sorry for the Dup. But it seemed to work for you. You now got your post count up too 49095 posts since 2009. 
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Posted: 2/7/2017 8:45:02 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry for the Dup. But it seemed to work for you. You now got your post count up too 49095 posts since 2009.
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Posted: 2/7/2017 6:23:43 PM EDT
[#35]
I have a Chinese Hawk 870 clone from about 20 years ago that's been solid.
It's not very refined and a bit heavy but is strong and well built. I've fired over 1,000 rounds through it now and never had a problem. I bet it will easily outlast even an older Remington Wingmaster 870. Best $125 I've ever spent on a gun. |
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Posted: 2/8/2017 5:24:46 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be honest, because the Benelli M4 has never failed, we've never purchased the other models. When I started these threads, it was to give advice for the guy/gal on a limited budget about purchase options. That being said, it's not a cheap shotgun. Even when I was making "decent" money, I probably still wouldn't have bought one at a price tag of $1,500. If it was a duty weapon and my life depended on it, I would beg, borrow and steal to make sure I had one. V/R Ron Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have you ever had the other Benelli models on the range, like the M1, M2, or M3 Convertible? If so, how did they hold up? To be honest, because the Benelli M4 has never failed, we've never purchased the other models. When I started these threads, it was to give advice for the guy/gal on a limited budget about purchase options. That being said, it's not a cheap shotgun. Even when I was making "decent" money, I probably still wouldn't have bought one at a price tag of $1,500. If it was a duty weapon and my life depended on it, I would beg, borrow and steal to make sure I had one. V/R Ron Thanks for all the great info in your threads Ron, but if you missed the question, do you have an estimate on the round counts through the M4's? I read your comments about the pump actions being rented more often, but couldn't find any mention of approximate round counts through the M4's. Max |
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Posted: 2/8/2017 2:28:08 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This makes no sense. CASE hardened? What? Do you even now what that is? "Mildly tempered?" What even is that? Good grief... Case hardened is surface hardened only, the temper is not "through". A mild temper means that the rockwell hardness is kept lower by drawing it down to impart wear resistance without causing brittleness. You have been warned. This is not GD. Mike. |
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Posted: 2/8/2017 2:48:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a Chinese Hawk 870 clone from about 20 years ago that's been solid. It's not very refined and a bit heavy but is strong and well built. I've fired over 1,000 rounds through it now and never had a problem. I bet it will easily outlast even an older Remington Wingmaster 870. Best $125 I've ever spent on a gun. I didn't know they've been around for so long. I wish I waited until Black Friday to get mine (I paid $250 OTD), even then, still about $200 cheaper than the Remington Express models and much more reliable and durable as well. |
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Posted: 2/9/2017 12:23:07 AM EDT
[#39]
Have any info on mossberg 590a1, mossberg 590, mossberg 500, and benelli mova's?
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Posted: 2/9/2017 12:27:41 AM EDT
[#40]
This is a technical forum.
Please stay on topic. |
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Posted: 2/9/2017 10:42:48 AM EDT
[#41]
For some reason I had a feeling this topic had potential to wander.
We don't name call. We don't post silly GD style nonsense. Let's get back on track and discuss the technical experiences the OP and others have had shooting high volumes of ammo in shotguns they owned and used. Thanks, Mike. |
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Posted: 2/9/2017 6:07:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Really curious on the Remingtons and Mossy balls, I have been around a lot of hunters and never heard of such horrible failure rates. Just to confirm, you dump and replace the gun upon the first failure every 2 to 4 weeks or you fix the little things and only trash after something substantial fails?
Either the new mfg. guns are total junk or your diet of buckshot loads places way more stress than bird shot and sporting clay loads. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 4:08:41 AM EDT
[#43]
+1 on trying some of the Chinese 870 clones
Also, if you could find a place for it, I would love to see how a benelli nova does. Thanks for all your contributions! |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 7:47:27 AM EDT
[#44]
Another awesome thread.
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Posted: 2/10/2017 2:41:36 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really curious on the Remingtons and Mossy balls, I have been around a lot of hunters and never heard of such horrible failure rates. Just to confirm, you dump and replace the gun upon the first failure every 2 to 4 weeks or you fix the little things and only trash after something substantial fails? Either the new mfg. guns are total junk or your diet of buckshot loads places way more stress than bird shot and sporting clay loads. Ive seen plenty of broken Rs and Ms on the skeet fields too. Hunters really don't shoot that many rounds. |
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Posted: 2/11/2017 7:39:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Little off topic, but I'd like to hear how an ARX-160/100 holds out, if you run those on the rental range.
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Posted: 2/12/2017 9:38:57 AM EDT
[#47]
Ron
Thank you for replying to my IM about this subject. Has it really been a year now ?
Seriously, for a man raising a family and doing a business as hectic as yours, I salute you. As far as the M4 is concerned, I thought by your small innuendos that this was going to be nothing shy of a splendid piece of machinery. Just reinforced the fact that I have to spend more monies  
PS: could you enlighten us none educated what the V/R stands for ? 
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Posted: 2/12/2017 2:51:03 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ron Thank you for replying to my IM about this subject. Has it really been a year now ?
Seriously, for a man raising a family and doing a business as hectic as yours, I salute you. As far as the M4 is concerned, I thought by your small innuendos that this was going to be nothing shy of a splendid piece of machinery. Just reinforced the fact that I have to spend more monies
PS: could you enlighten us none educated what the V/R stands for ? |
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Posted: 2/12/2017 4:34:36 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very Respectfully. Thank you |
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Posted: 2/13/2017 7:24:07 AM EDT
[#50]
Ron your posting on the benelli M4 pushed me over the edge and I saved extra and got one. What a sweet weapon. Got tube on order . Thanks Wardawg
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