Posting photos of M-14s proves NOTHING...how about some FACTS please!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Bigger bullets make bigger holes. Cant argue with physics! I felt that the M16 was the best battle rifle in the world until I read an Army armorers rant on another board. Basically he said that the M16 was proving inadequate in Afghanistan because it took 3 or more solid hits on Taliban to end their fighting career. They also had problems with the 9mm and he said that there were a lot of guys getting ahold of old 1911 .45's and that they were getting the job done a lot better. I still like the .223 round for plinking, varmminting and paper punching but I wouldnt stake my life on one. How come no one complained or had problems with the 9mm before?  The 9mm round has been around since like 1905, it is probably the most widely used pistol round of the 20th century, used by the most number of militaries and the problems didn't start to show up until Afghanistan?  The Germans never complained about it.

Oh its been complained about. When the US was looking for a new service pistol before WWI they looked at the P08 but wanted it in .45 not 30 Luger and not in 9mm when it came out. They did test on animals and the .45 won for a reason. Also you have to look at how the sidearm was used in WWII especially by the Germans. They were pretty much last ditch if used in combat and really only issued to officers and artillary and rear eschelon troops. It was carred a lot and fired very little in comparison to the long arm. Bear in mind they also carried whole lot of 32 ACP types and 380's both of wich are only good for shooting yourself really...like ol Hitler did.

The 9mm doesnt have that stellar a record for fight stopping. It was picked because its A: Used by a lot of other countries making ammo easy to obtain and B: Little limp wristed pansys can shoot it as well as women. Its all political. There was a lot of political wrangling in the adoption of the 5.56 too but hey thats what this country is all about.

Quoted: Posting photos of M-14s proves NOTHING...how about some FACTS please!

Somehow all the other facts people posted doesn't exist...

Facts? Ha ha ha!

Well, damn!

Last night when I left this topic it was somewhat civil, today it has gotten right snarky I like that



I want an M1 type action calibered in .50 BMG, just liek an M14 with a 20 round double stack mag. Might be slightly weighty, but it sure would be fun!!  

Quoted: Anyway, without variance, you will find that "hardcore" .223 AR enthusiasts are recoil sensative. You have to remember that the AR was designed for ease of fire during full-auto strings, and by potential women combatants (Not to mention combatants of "smaller stature", i.e- Asians) And SURE! The AR has a place... If I were fighting in a jungle where I couldn't see more than 30 yds to actually hit something, I would love to have a M16... But it is limited in it's utility. 1) For most of us who are limited to semi-auto only fire, there is no reason to go with the smaller round. Since the 5.56 only exists for it's controability in FA, it makes sense to go with the larger round in a semi. 2) Making the long shot. I find that most gun enthusiasts I know have never shot beyond 1-200 yards. They think that making long shots is difficult, and call anyone a liar who tells them they can make them. LR is my thing. And while the .223 can hit out that far, it isn't delivering much steam. And it gets tossed by wind a LOT eaiser... At the BRC, I spotted for NewARGuy who was able to take a 14.5 Barreled AR w/ ACOG, and hit the steel target at 350 from the offhand position. So, the .223 can do it... But it is VERY weak at those ranges... The 308 gives better range, and better KDP at the other end... 3) Punching through improvised cover. I am of the school that believes that if they are behind cover, shoot through the cover. Trees, bushes, shrubs, vines, leaves... The .308 can make it through and maintain it's integrity, while the .22 can't.

I believe this pretty well sums it up, even in regards to the 9mm.  Undisciplined, recoil sensitive shooters won't be able to be as effective with the harder hitting round.

Originally posted by greentip. 7.62 is a better man stopper but the Army wants a small arm system that can be used effectively in mechanized infantry action, when war was still envisioned to be fighting in Europe against the com Bloc. The rifle needs to shoot fast and penetrate body armour within 300m(when Russkies are dismount out of BMPs), and can be put away in APC and bring into action quickly. After saying that, a 5.56 rifle will probably put more enemies out of combat effectiveness than a MBR within a 30 seconds period. It's better to break their advance and clean them up, than killing half and let the remaing half to shoot back at 100% efficiency. Let's do some math: ( these are just assumptions) Within 30 seconds: 5.56mm = 10 accurate shots = 4 dead, 4 wounded, 2 lightly wounded 7.62= 7 accurate shots = 5 dead, 2 wounded Overall, the 5.56 system will still reduce the overall enemies combat effectiveless more than the 7.62. The point is, more shots will be fired accurately and therefore more enemies will be hit. Less individual soldiers might die from 5.56, but OVERALL, less people on the opposite side, on average will work at 100% efficiency. This makes killing them a second priority while the next wave can be dealt with. While all the immediate threats are dealt with, the wounded enemies can be left to rot or cleaned up easily.

See above.

Ask anyone what works better on larger game and they'll answer larger bullets.  Read the book Enough Gun by Ruark I think.

Quoted: I think the ultimate example of this is the replacement of the M60 with the SAW.Tells me that 5.56 is pretty effective. Course I could just be nuts?

The SAW was not adopted to replace the M60.  The SAW was meant to replace the weapon used by the "Automatic rifleman" in a line fireteam, which was a soldier armed with an M16 kept on full auto and supplied with extra magazines.  The SAW, being belt fed, has a higher sustained rate of fire.

The M60 and M240 are still used as medium machineguns...which means they weren't replaced.

Quoted: Posting photos of M-14s proves NOTHING...how about some FACTS please!

Facts are in... www.sftt.org/afghanlessons_files/frame.htm ..20% double feeds...15% jams...20% bitch to clean And the soldiers want a BIGGER round...never mind the old fashioned buttstroke test.

Quoted: And the soldiers want a BIGGER round...never mind the old fashioned buttstroke test.

Please pardon my French....

...but its in UCMJ that its the grunts responsibility and duty to bitch about something. Grunts NOT found bitching will be summarily shot.

If they were all carrying M14's, they'd bitch about the weight of the rifle, the relatively smaller capacity of teh M14 mag,  and the inability to carry large amounts of ammo.

As it is, they are bitching about lack of stopping power of the .223 round, and the finickyness of the firearm.

Its a grunts DUTY to bitch. Don't put too much stock in it. (Don't ignore it, but don't put too much stock in it.)

Quoted: Quoted: And the soldiers want a BIGGER round...never mind the old fashioned buttstroke test. Please pardon my French.... ...but its in UCMJ that its the grunts responsibility and duty to bitch about something. Grunts NOT found bitching will be summarily shot. If they were all carrying M14's, they'd bitch about the weight of the rifle, the relatively smaller capacity of teh M14 mag,  and the inability to carry large amounts of ammo. As it is, they are bitching about lack of stopping power of the .223 round, and the finickyness of the firearm. Its a grunts DUTY to bitch. Don't put too much stock in it. (Don't ignore it, but don't put too much stock in it.)

I got some S African 5.56 a while back and my Bushy would not feed that crap for shite! I couldnt figure it out. Put American Eagle in it and it was perfect. It bothered me no end since I had a case of the stuff. I have never ever had any problems with my M1A and I have shot some real off brand stuff in it. I got rid of the Bushmaster and Im building another and hopefully I wont have this problem again.