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Posted: 5/14/2021 11:21:37 AM EDT
[#1]
I’m too lazy to look but studies of incidents showed that while it kills people, it doesn’t stop them, and it’s a poor substitute for a larger weapon. The best loads are said to have terminal effect more like 9mm ball.
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Posted: 5/14/2021 11:43:02 AM EDT
[#2]
I for one don't want to get shot with a 5.7mm, 40-grain projectile traveling 1,900 fps, or a 28-grain bullet traveling at 3,000 fps.
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Posted: 5/14/2021 12:53:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Not my first choice, but anyone getting hit with multiple shots on target is going to have a very bad day.
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Posted: 5/14/2021 2:12:10 PM EDT
[#4]
5.7 has proven itself
Hate to reference this but look at the Fort Hood incident |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 2:31:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.7 has proven itself Hate to reference this but look at the Fort Hood incident 30 of the 43 people shot survived. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 2:55:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 30 of the 43 people shot survived. Look at where on the body most of those that survived were hit. I saw a well put together list detailing each victims injuries, almost all of the survivors were struck in their limbs or non-life threatening areas. And in the few examples where victims were struck in the head or chest survived, most of those were grazing wounds, fragments, etc. I mention that because more then once I've seen people say "Mr _____ was shot in the head at Fort Hood and survived... thus 5.7 sucks". They intentionally leave out such important details. Yet another aspect that plays heavy when using such examples that is often ignored... time to medical care. Most of the victims were recieving first aid within just a few minutes, and advanced care just a few minutes later. That plays a HUGE part in outcome. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:09:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.7 has proven itself Hate to reference this but look at the Fort Hood incident A variant of that same phrase has been uttered by every 5.7 fan in every thread for 12 years. Cho killed 33 and wounded 17 with a 9mm and a 22 and with a similar number of rounds expended. No single data point is good for proving or disproving anything like this, so both events are really irrelevant in the scheme of things. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:10:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look at where on the body most of those that survived were hit. That’s typical of GSWs. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:16:57 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look at where on the body most of those that survived were hit. I saw a well put together list detailing each victims injuries, almost all of the survivors were struck in their limbs or non-life threatening areas. And in the few examples where victims were struck in the head or chest survived, most of those were grazing wounds, fragments, etc. I mention that because more then once I've seen people say "Mr _____ was shot in the head at Fort Hood and survived... thus 5.7 sucks". They intentionally leave out such important details. Yet another aspect that plays heavy when using such examples that is often ignored... time to medical care. Most of the victims were recieving first aid within just a few minutes, and advanced care just a few minutes later. That plays a HUGE part in outcome. It’s a 22 that can’t get more than about 9” or penetration in gel with most bullets. It’s not impressive. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:18:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 30 of the 43 people shot survived. AND what “magic” caliber will cause cessation of life from an extremities hit? Well I’m waiting! ”1. 11 people were shot center-of-mass (COM), one was shot in the stomach and one was shot in the head. All 13 died. All 11 victims who were shot COM did not survive. 2. 3 of the 13 people who died, tried to charge Hassan, but he stopped them with COM shots. 3. The 32 people who were wounded were hit in the arms, legs, hips and shoulders. None of the wounded survivors were shot COM. The following conclusions can be drawn: 1. The FN 5.7 is a very lethal round CQB because all 11 victims who were shot COM died. No survivors for those hit COM. 2. The FN 5.7 is a real stopper, because 3 tried to charge Hassan at close range and were stopped by COM shots. 3. One of the fatalities was shot in the stomach, and died. The fragmentation of the SS197R round can create a hail of metal shards that can cause serious internal organ damage and bleeding in the stomach. 4. None of the 32 people who were hit in the extremities, hips and shoulders were able to muster a counter-attack because the FN 5.7 must have shattered or broken bones. The high rate of wounded vicitms to fatalities was the direct result of the shooting ability of Hassan (or lack thereof), and not because the 5.7x28 round is not lethal. 5. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity. Her femur was shattered into 118 pieces. 6. According to medical personnel, there was so much blood in the room that it was difficult to get to the victims because the floor became very slippery. One can conclude that the commercial 5.7x28 rounds can fragment or tumble, causing immense blood loss. 7. It took five bullets (which I assume was a 9 mm) from Sgt Mark Todd to stop Hasan. And he survived his wounds (no available info on where he was hit, except that one of the bullets paralyzed Hasan). In conclusion: 1. The FN 5.7 is definitely a very lethal round. 100% fatality for COM shots. 2. The FN 5.7 is a man-stopper. Three military men tried to charge Hasan, and all three were stopped. 2. The FN 5.7 is a very incapacitating round, if extremities are hit, because it is powerful enough to break the femur (which is the largest bone in the body) 3. The fragmentation or tumbling effect of commercial ammo can cause a lot of blood loss. The FN 5.7 is a very effective weapon. It is as effective as, or arguably more effective, than any military or civilian pistols in the market. It is unfortunate that the jihadist Hassan used this weapon against U.S. soldiers.” Hassan used a combination of SS195 & SS197 FN (actually Fiocchi) is one of the WEAKEST loads you can purchase for the 5.7x28 round! For example, hydrostatic shock begins at 1,800 to 2,000 fps. SS197 typically clocks around 1,650 out of a handgun. I prefer Elite Ammunition’s S4M which out of FN FiveseveN pistol clocks an average of 2,400 fps! It will reliably penetrate Level IIIA body armor. Elite T6B will penetrate THREE PANELS of Level IIIA body armor. FN SS198 will go through 1 1/4” bulletproof glass out of the pistol. With the 5.7 round ammunition choice is CRITICAL! |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:25:42 PM EDT
[#11]
That list is too fanbois to take seriously.
But I’ve talked to a half a dozen people directly who have participated in or witnessed over 100 homicides with 4.6 and 5.7, and don’t care so much for them. Where’s the video of the guy getting stung by bees when you need it? |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:28:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a 22 that can’t get more than about 9” or penetration in gel with most bullets. It’s not impressive. Again, Crap Ammo How do you think U.S. G.I. 130 gr .38 Special works compared to 110 gr +P+? How about 14” of penetration AFTER going through a Level IIIA AR500 armor panel?  5.7x28mm, 37gr CHP, R37.X R&R Weapon Systems Review |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:38:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a 22 that can’t get more than about 9” or penetration in gel with most bullets. It’s not impressive. Tell that to the 13 dead people at Fort Hood. BTW... I'm not impressed by jello or those that worship slow motion jiggle videos. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:40:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But I’ve talked to a half a dozen people directly who have participated in or witnessed over 100 homicides with 4.6 and 5.7 I'm going to call BS on that. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:40:43 PM EDT
[#15]
A 37 grain bullet at 2100fps is a death ray suddenly?
Also I looked over a list of injuries from Fort Hood. Several we shot in the chest or back and survived. The survivor I met had a paralyzed arm. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:40:45 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That list is too fanbois to take seriously. But I’ve talked to a half a dozen people directly who have participated in or witnessed over 100 homicides with 4.6 and 5.7, and don’t care so much for them. Where’s the video of the guy getting stung by bees when you need it? I’m calling BULLSHIT, what’s your supporting data? There has been almost ZERO shootings with the HK 4.6 and there hasn’t been 100 shootings with the 5.7x28! It like the Urban Legend of the perp who was shot 17 times with the 5.7 and asked the Officers to stop shooting him! And speaking of shooting a perp 14 times, how about a DOCUMENTED shoot with the .45 acp where the Officer hit him with 14 rounds? So, how do you feel about the “LEGENDARY” .45 acp??? LINK |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:43:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Several we shot in the chest or back and survived. You left out the types of wounds and what organs were/weren't involved... why? Countless numbers of people have been shot in the chest/back... with pistol and/or rifle calibers... and survived. What is your point? |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:45:49 PM EDT
[#18]
How many of those shot were killed/survived is a retarded metric. How quickly a determined offender can be taken out of the fight is the only thing that matters in a defensive shoot. Ft. Hood shooter was popping unarmed and unprepared victims. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:46:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell that to the 13 dead people at Fort Hood. BTW... I'm not impressed by jello or those that worship slow motion jiggle videos. I’m sure you know better than professionals. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:46:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A 37 grain bullet at 2100fps is a death ray suddenly? Also I looked over a list of injuries from Fort Hood. Several we shot in the chest or back and survived. The survivor I met had a paralyzed arm. Where did these shootings occur? What Dept.? Again, without supporting documentation it’s just Gun Shop BULLSHIT! Without any documentation you are completely discrediting yourself |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:47:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You left out the types of wounds and what organs were/weren't involved... why? Countless numbers of people have been shot in the chest/back... with pistol and/or rifle calibers... and survived. What is your point? The other fanbois posted a list that said it never happened. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:47:59 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’m calling BULLSHIT, what’s your supporting data? There has been almost ZERO shootings with the HK 4.6 and there hasn’t been 100 shootings with the 5.7x28! It like the Urban Legend of the perp who was shot 17 times with the 5.7 and asked the Officers to stop shooting him! And speaking of shooting a perp 14 times, how about a DOCUMENTED shoot with the .45 acp where the Officer hit him with 14 rounds? So, how do you feel about the “LEGENDARY” .45 acp??? LINK Almost zero? Plainly you are running with the wrong crowd. Lots of people have been shot with 4.6. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:48:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where did these shootings occur? What Dept.? Again, without supporting documentation it’s just Gun Shop BULLSHIT! Without any documentation you are completely discrediting yourself Jacksonville, couple others I can’t remember, but mostly Department of the Army and Department of the Navy. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:49:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many of those shot were killed/survived is a retarded metric. How quickly a determined offender can be taken out of the fight is the only thing that matters in a defensive shoot. Ft. Hood shooter was popping unarmed and unprepared victims. If you talk to people with experience with the 4.6 in particular they’ll tell you it’s a great tool for killing the unsuspecting but you want a bigger gun once they know you’re there. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:50:01 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Almost zero? Plainly you are running with the wrong crowd. Lots of people have been shot with 4.6. I don’t think so, 32 years wearing a Badge and some of that on S.W.A.T. What’s your background? |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:51:48 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t think so, 32 years wearing a Badge and some of that on S.W.A.T. What’s your background? How many SMU vets have you sat down with? That’s who is using these things in shootings. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:53:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It like the Urban Legend of the perp who was shot 17 times with the 5.7 and asked the Officers to stop shooting him! Some years ago I saw that thread in an archive. I love how the guy who made the initial claim refused to provide ANY information to corroborate the supposed event, not a date, not a city, not a state, NOTHING. He would only babble about "operational security" and such. IIRC he also claimed to have been involved in a second shooting where the person was shot multiple times in the torso, yet shrugged off the hits like they were mosquito bites. Refused to provide any specifics for that one as well. These are the same people who seem to piss all over 30 Carbine as being ineffective... yet celebrate 357 Magnum 
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:54:50 PM EDT
[#28]
OP, go price some ammo 1st. If you're gonna run a 16" bbl PS90, then ammo is reasonable, but still below even M193 performance from a 16" bbl, and far more expensive.
If you're going carry pistol, go price the 28 grn boutique ammo that'll you'll need to sell your left kidney for to get bullets out over 2100 fps. The whole point of the 5.7x28mm is rifle performance from a pistol. In order to do that, you're going to pay a very high price. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:55:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The other fanbois posted a list that said it never happened. You are obfuscating. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 3:59:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The whole point of the 5.7x28mm is rifle performance from a pistol. That was never the point, not by any stretch. The pistol game after the fact simply as a means to share a common caliber with the P90. Beyond that it's "point" was to defeat typical body armor that could not be defeated by common service pistol calibers. Even the P90 was never intended to deliver "rifle performance". |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 4:23:42 PM EDT
[#31]
We use it for our home defense. My wife can cycle the slide easily and fire it without out flinching too much. It has 20 rds of SS198, and is not heavy. Other ladies I have allowed to shoot it committed it is fun and easy. The same ones that have difficulty cycling a full size 9mm and shooting it.
For us, ammo is not expensive because I bought 2k rounds previous to the crazy. Now, as others have noted, make sure you can practice and buy ammo, otherwise pick another option. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 4:31:47 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was never the point, not by any stretch. The pistol game after the fact simply as a means to share a common caliber with the P90. Beyond that it's "point" was to defeat typical body armor that could not be defeated by common service pistol calibers. Even the P90 was never intended to deliver "rifle performance". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The whole point of the 5.7x28mm is rifle performance from a pistol. That was never the point, not by any stretch. The pistol game after the fact simply as a means to share a common caliber with the P90. Beyond that it's "point" was to defeat typical body armor that could not be defeated by common service pistol calibers. Even the P90 was never intended to deliver "rifle performance". That is the point of the round on the US civilian market. Other than the cuteness factor, there's really no point to 5.7x28mm in a Title 1 rifle when 5.56x45mm is more widely available, more effective, and both the round & platform are less expensive. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 4:34:28 PM EDT
[#33]
Sure why not.
38/357, 10mm, 9mm, 45acp stopping power wars don't end. Shot placement counts. |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 4:36:50 PM EDT
[#34]
I'm curious what recent NATO acceptance/standardization will do for ammo options and availability....
 Attached File |
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Posted: 5/14/2021 5:08:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm curious what recent NATO acceptance/standardization will do for ammo options and availability.... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20210506_012952331_jpg-1942164.JPG I think I need another SBR 
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Posted: 5/14/2021 5:22:24 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm curious what recent NATO acceptance/standardization will do for ammo options and availability.... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/173511/PXL_20210506_012952331_jpg-1942164.JPG Is that the Marine Corps blue crayon rounds? 
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Posted: 5/14/2021 6:56:34 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that the Marine Corps blue crayon rounds? Mag ID with a paint marker ?? |
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Posted: 5/15/2021 2:21:45 PM EDT
[#38]
I think OP it is within a given parameter where lightness of the ammo over other factors and/or want a flatter trajectory over a longer range.
I picked up a PS90 for novelty and fun, but can appreciate the 50 round capacity, ability to wield it with one hand, short compact nature of it and its relative lightweight ness. I topped mine with a TROUSA mini ACOG mount and TA44. I can easily pop steel silhouettes at 200 yards and it carries easier than an AR. I think it makes a nice traveling gun, so if I decide to SBR I will get another to maintain easy interstate travel. It is not too loud anyway. The FN57 or Ruger pistol are again going to be very lightweight and offer 20+1 so that is nice. Probally not what I would go looking for trouble with, but I don't do that anyway, however if trouble found me I would be well enough armed for 2 legged snakes with one as those targeting me would likely not be the type to press an attack anyway, especially when getting shot. |
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Posted: 5/15/2021 3:32:42 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think OP it is within a given parameter where lightness of the ammo over other factors and/or want a flatter trajectory over a longer range. I picked up a PS90 for novelty and fun, but can appreciate the 50 round capacity, ability to wield it with one hand, short compact nature of it and its relative lightweight ness. I topped mine with a TROUSA mini ACOG mount and TA44. I can easily pop steel silhouettes at 200 yards and it carries easier than an AR. I think it makes a nice traveling gun, so if I decide to SBR I will get another to maintain easy interstate travel. It is not too loud anyway. The FN57 or Ruger pistol are again going to be very lightweight and offer 20+1 so that is nice. Probally not what I would go looking for trouble with, but I don't do that anyway, however if trouble found me I would be well enough armed for 2 legged snakes with one as those targeting me would likely not be the type to press an attack anyway, especially when getting shot. The 5.7 pistol for defense HEAVILY depends on you choice of ammo. Fiocchi loads FN SS197, Federal American Eagle, & the new Speer Gold Dot. Fiocchi’ s reputation on loading 5.7x28 has been less than stellar! I’ll use the aforementioned loads for practice ONLY! You are much better of with one of the listed below loadings.... Elite Ammunition S4M Elite Ammunition T6B Black Dragon Fang FN L191 (if you can get it) L.E. ONLY FN SS190 (if you can get it) L.E. ONLY FN SS198 R&R Weaponry R37.X  The Black Dragon Fang 5.7x28mm!  5.7x28mm, 28gr OTM, SS198LF, FNH USA, MIL/LEO, Velocity  Shooting L191 5.7 Tracer Into Gel! 5.7x28mm, 37gr CHP, R37.X R&R Weapon Systems Review |
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Posted: 5/15/2021 4:46:03 PM EDT
[#40]
The new 50 grn loading from Liberty in .357 SIG sounds pretty interesting. Buffman has indicated he might test the 50 grn Liberty 9x19mm into gel from a 16" carbine this summer.
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Posted: 5/16/2021 11:05:43 AM EDT
[#41]
I have the older SS192 and the FN SS198 ? Is the SS198 better for home defense?
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Posted: 5/16/2021 11:09:30 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.7 has proven itself Hate to reference this but look at the Fort Hood incident Self defenders are not usually attacked by seated people. The fact is, mass is needed to reach the vitals and the vitals must be reached to stop an attacker. Attackers will be at least enraged and adrenaline is a wonderful pain and shock blocker. Attackers are often high on some substance so they don't feel pain or shock. The vitals must be reached. These ultra-light projectile launchers are neat and easy-to-shoot well but probably aren't going to put an attacker down fast enough. |
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Posted: 5/16/2021 12:26:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have the older SS192 and the FN SS198 ? Is the SS198 better for home defense? Yes it’s around 100 fps faster |
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Posted: 5/16/2021 12:28:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Self defenders are not usually attacked by seated people. The fact is, mass is needed to reach the vitals and the vitals must be reached to stop an attacker. Attackers will be at least enraged and adrenaline is a wonderful pain and shock blocker. Attackers are often high on some substance so they don't feel pain or shock. The vitals must be reached. These ultra-light projectile launchers are neat and easy-to-shoot well but probably aren't going to put an attacker down fast enough. Apparently you aren’t familiar with hydrostatic shock! At 2,400 fps they are going DOWN. THATS why I carried the 5.7 on duty! |
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Posted: 5/17/2021 9:02:01 AM EDT
[#45]
The 5.7's strong suit was penetration and mag capacity ,if that's what you desire it might appeal to some people.
Its closer to 22 mag ballistics or .222 , .223 , 22 hornet, etc. and those are not death rays but still more effective from a rifle than a 5.7 handgun. Its varmint class ballistics. I fired a few hundred rounds from a PS90 with the real FN ammo and it was lackluster to me. Having a 5.7 handgun would be a nice range toy but the ammo is WAY overpriced and in short supply IMHO. |
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Posted: 5/17/2021 9:11:07 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t think so, 32 years wearing a Badge and some of that on S.W.A.T. What’s your background? Everybody referred to in this thread being shot by 4.6 were shot by SOF units. They aren't saying 4.6 is prevelant in US shootings. Its pretty out in the open that the SF guys are not impressed with 4.6 as far as I know. That's how I read what was said, anyways. |
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Posted: 5/17/2021 10:44:19 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 5.7's strong suit was penetration and mag capacity ,if that's what you desire it might appeal to some people. Its closer to 22 mag ballistics or .222 , .223 , 22 hornet, etc. and those are not death rays but still more effective from a rifle than a 5.7 handgun. Its varmint class ballistics. I fired a few hundred rounds from a PS90 with the real FN ammo and it was lackluster to me. Having a 5.7 handgun would be a nice range toy but the ammo is WAY overpriced and in short supply IMHO. 5.7x28mm has better ballistic coefficient bullets than .22 WMR, so even when .22 WMR is fired from a rifle, it will not have the same performance @ 100 yds as 5.7x28mm will when fired from a handgun. |
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Posted: 5/17/2021 10:57:55 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.7x28mm has better ballistic coefficient bullets than .22 WMR, so even when .22 WMR is fired from a rifle, it will not have the same performance @ 100 yds as 5.7x28mm will when fired from a handgun. The 22mag is not a death either and still a varmint class round. |
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Posted: 5/17/2021 11:10:23 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 22mag is not a death either and still a varmint class round. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 5.7x28mm has better ballistic coefficient bullets than .22 WMR, so even when .22 WMR is fired from a rifle, it will not have the same performance @ 100 yds as 5.7x28mm will when fired from a handgun. The 22mag is not a death either and still a varmint class round. Well aware. 30 grn .22 WMR out of a rifle does clear the 2100 fps level into "rifle wounding performance" seemingly. .223 is a varmint class round, yet it's been our service cartridge for nearly the last 60 years. With the right bullets, 5.7x28mm would seem very capable, albeit in a service-sized handgun. .22 TCM and .357 SIG have more powder capacity & seem closer to the ideal concealed carry pocket rifle round. |
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Posted: 5/17/2021 12:51:33 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 5.7's strong suit was penetration and mag capacity ,if that's what you desire it might appeal to some people. Its closer to 22 mag ballistics or .222 , .223 , 22 hornet, etc. and those are not death rays but still more effective from a rifle than a 5.7 handgun. Its varmint class ballistics. I fired a few hundred rounds from a PS90 with the real FN ammo and it was lackluster to me. Having a 5.7 handgun would be a nice range toy but the ammo is WAY overpriced and in short supply IMHO. If you bother to check, .22 Magnum averages 1,050 fps out of a handgun Elite Ammunition S4M averages 2,400 fps out of a handgun! It would appear to me they aren’t even close to being in the same class! |
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