So...

I'm not the only one that's been buying guns. But, I specifically had lack of rifle caliber ARs, so I filled that, and discovered a few things that I'm not sure I would have ever got from picture threads or god forbid bullshit youtube gun reviews.

KAC SR-25 APC.... I seriously don't see what the fuss is about the finish is noticeably worse than the SIG 716i, that's not an insult or anything, the SIG is really nicely finished, the KAC is OK. The KAC shoots like any other gas gun, not like a more picky LaRue. IDK, having had one in my home and on the range and really got into the differences, the KAC just seems like it would cost exactly half of what it does if it had a different logo on the side. I know KAC fans are just as bad as HK fans, but whatever. First hand experience with no emotional connection to the gun.

LMT MWS... Probably not fair to lay into negatively because mine was a long heavy barrel, but a 11.5lbs rifle without optic, is too much imo. I would have to larp pretty hard to justify that. The MARS-H lower is good, probably my favorite for function. As to changable barrels vs separate uppers, seems like the real difference is how much you want to change an optic between uppers vs a barrel between gun with optic fixed, is there a right answer to that? LMT would do well to put the MWS on a diet.

SIG 716i... I had low hopes for this gun being the TREAD model, until I got it home and went through it. I'm telling you. The fit and finish on this gun is better than the KAC. It's a BCM like rail, the bolt is light and racks smooth, it shot well... What else do you need? It is about the same weight as the KAC and I think honestly, the best buy in AR-10 - UNTIL - you outgrow it. I'm not a giant SIG fan but hell, it's a solid gun for pre-panic $1250.

VSeven Receiver Set... I bought these to keep in the back of the safe and build later but there is a bigger issue there. These are EXCELLENTLY MADE, holy hell, I've never had a nicer receiver set in my hands. One issue is they are cerakote'd black vs anodized, so might not match your rail right away. The issue is, I underestimated how much it would cost to build a whole gun out. I like the BCM and KAC rails for AR-15, and the KAC for the AR-10 isn't ENTIRELY unreasonable (not like a "limited edition" $1000 bolt carrier) so I'm looking a KAC rail, some barrel like a PROOF on sale, BCG and furnature, for.... damn, something that SIG did 90% of. I feel like a total poor going back to that SIG value.

Lessons learned

• AR-10s are not just bigger AR-15s, many differences in parts, market, knowledge, in many ways


• I don't care about the logo on the side


• Things that look cool in picture threads are usually way heavy


• The SIG 716i Tread is underrated, and I only figured this out after I realized that...


• Building an AR-10 does not make financial sense to me


• I've bought 4 options off my 6 option list and I'm just not really "pleased" with any of them. This may be a reflection on me not the guns


• I personally don't want a gun that only makes it from vehicle to shooting mat and back, so while I don't mind competition weight guns, I don't think any of these fill that role anyhow, I need something that starts out no heavier than 8lbs, that's a big section of market gone right away

Options I'm still looking to evaluate...

BARRET REC-10... This gun looks like Barrett bought all the parts they through were cool added their rail and called it their gun. Fine by me, it's a good looking setup! Complete fucking unobtainium right now however.

POF Revolution... The downsides of it maybe needing another QA pass out of the box are outweighed by the IDEA here. That I think the small frame AR-10 platform has a lot of potential. What if a 6.5cm version doesn't need to be big and heavy everything? Again, complete vaporware right now. This gun really does seem like a winner and I wonder if it could be made in slow fire as accurate as the full frame guns.

Any other AR-10 lessons anyone else specifically learned?

I don’t see any AR-10’s on your list?

And I will never buy anything from VSeven again.
Bought one of their A5 buffer tubes, and the buffer would go in, and get stuck.
Looked inside, and the coating (Ceracoat?) wad way over sprayed, and was rough, looked like stucco.
Ran a brake hone back and forth until it felt smooth, looked a little better, buffer still would get stuck.
Put a light down the hole, and the machine work was horrible, like they bored it with a broken cutting tool.
Looks like they sprayed a ton of coating down the bore, to mask their horrible machine work.

Tried contacting them, and never received any reply...
I had to spend hours with a brake hone to smooth tube up that POS, so that the buffer would slide freely from one end to another.
Nope, Never again.

And you missed something about AR10s, a selection for parts is way tougher, and not a lot of interchangeability.

Ooooh..... It's going to be like that huh? :)

"308 semi autos that have a similar linage to the AR-10/AR-15" .... better?

I mean, I'll always forgive a bad part, IF the company fixes it. BCM had a SOFT barrel nut on one of my builds, immediately apologized and replaced it, I wouldn't shit on BCM for the original issue.

IDK, the VSeven set I had in hand was seriously the nicest upper lower I've ever seen. Now, I didn't try to install it, maybe I would have discovered issues with the coating, and maybe the cerakote to hide flaws, but it was good machining as the finished product. I was really impressed, however, I agree customer service is important and can make or break a return sale.

Yea, I probably could have been more clear that the parts interchangeability is nothing at all like AR-15.

All things considered I wish I didn't sell the SIG, I hate myself for gushing on it, but it was a really good value.

I used to work at ArmaLite and With the passing of LarryG I thought I might say hello!

I can’t speak for the current company but when Mark Westrom owned the company the AR-10Bs we built were very nice rifles.  My favorite being the AR-10A2 Government Model.

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While not as vocal as Larry, I'm of the same school.  

If you call it an AR-10 it should say Armalite on the side (though I do have an identical lower with Aero Precision engraved on it):

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So yeah, most peoples first reaction to picking up their first "AR-10" is

hmf, this is heavy...

followed by

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mine was...

"well, its heavier than I thought.... YEA!"

Heavy


Then you shoot one and think, baby this is sweet. _{pew, pew, pew}

Me too. I only worked there about 6 months in the IT area. Mark and his team built EXCELLENT rifles.

The ArmaLite and Eagle Arms rifles during his time there are among my most prized possessions. I still have the toaster that came with my ArmaLite AR-10.

Cool!

Great write up OP
I have an irrational love for my AR10

Finally configured it just how I like it.
Reminds me of the Mattel Maurader, the original GI Joe M16 and my favorite rifle of all time the M16A1 / SP1. Every-time I open the safe, it smiles back at me :)

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I bought a Stag 10T for a blaster to burn all the surplus 1980 308 I have, it’s been good and I’ve enjoyed it- just changed stock and grip out.  Probably much cheaper than the guns OP buys

Nice!

What scope is that?

HI JC, thanks! It's a Swarovski ZFM24 4x. Rear adjustable focus, BDC turret in 308 out to 600, 30mm tube.
It's a state of the art military combat scope for the mid / late 80's lol. Eye relief is spot on, has a ranging reticle

I think it was made for HK's, found it a local funshop about 10 years ago NIB. What I really like about it is that it
looks like the grandson of the original AR10 Delft scopes.

Get an XCR-M and rejoice.

You should do JPs LRP-07, and the Seekins SP10.   I think those will surprise you

You and I are on a similar journey. I decided to divest and modernize my arsenal of old factory- and kit-built FALs, G3s, and M14s and dip into modern 7.62 NATO. In 2017, I bought a SAN 751 SAPR, and that was so drastically better to shoot than the old stuff I figured it was time.

I ordered a LMT MARS MLOK and LMT MWS Sniper early in 2020, but don't have either yet. I also ordered a Wilson Combat Recon Tactical and a JP LRI-20 in early November, and finally received the Wilson Combat on Feb 2. I've handled but not shot the DD5V3, APC308, Galil ACE, Tavor 7, SCAR 17, SCAR 20, MR762, and probably others I don't remember. Lessons I've learned so far coming from wood and steel into the SR-25/AR-10 types:

• The Wilson and LMT rifles I've shot must have 50% the felt recoil of the G3, 65% of the M14, and 75% of the FAL. Modern stuff is AKM-level, maybe even less!


• I really dig the simplicity of the Stoner design. Not having action weight out near the muzzle makes a major handling difference in 7.62 guns.


• That said, I'm still not comfortable handling this design like I was with the other three or am with the SAN/AK manual of arms. Time will cure that.


• If you reload your 7.62 and want a semiautomatic, this is the way. The G3 and AK/751 mangle brass, the M14 is unkind, and the FAL random.


• Everything I owned prior to the Wilson was steel and preferred grease for lubrication. ARs are a mixture of materials and prefer oil—AR people know this, but to "other gun" people like me, it's an unusual deviation.


• While I really like right-side charging, top charging has one big advantage: minimal optics interference. SAN 751 + TA110 = no go

Some things specific to the Wilson that may help you:

• It's a legit 8lbs without any stuff on it.


• It gets along very well with the OSS HX-QD Ti, and that combo makes what is easily the most pleasant 7.62 NATO semiautomatic I've ever shot, and one that only triggers my hearing protection's warning sound maybe 1/20 shots. AKs, G3s, and M14s will do it every shot suppressed, an FAL most shots.


• I've tried out an LPVO (Credo 1-8x), prismatic (TA110), dot (MRO), and irons (Wilson) to see what seems to match best. Liked the MRO best on this gun, easy gong dings at 300 with basic support. Standing's another story with the suppressor hanging out there :).


• Wilson's QC is good but not perfect. You'll find tool marks and even burrs that have been plated or finished over in non-critical areas, usually inner diameters/interior cuts. Coming from Cold War era guns I know it's not a functional issue, but it's easy to expect perfection today.


• Clean out all the factory goo. I didn't know there was some in my lower receiver extension tube, and it gets gummy enough in the cold that the gun wouldn't cycle in 0F weather.

Overall, I'm happy. The Recon Tactical is the best of my two current centerfire rifles (SAN is the other), and much better than any FAL, G3, or M14. We'll see how it stacks up to the LMT and JP guns. Like you, I'm interested in the Barrett, and I'd also like to try a 716i, SR-25 CC, and DD5V3 (without DD's dogshit furniture).

Can you comment on the shooting characteristics and downrange performance of your rifles comparatively?

I went on this same quest many years ago.  I ended up too with Armalite AR-10B rifles.  I have the 20” barreled SASS and a 16” carbine.  Never an issue with either.

And when you have a stainless barrel.

Wish PSA made a carry handle upper like that Armalite. Never saw the appeal of an AR10 carbine.

My VSeven stuff is top notch. Mostly titanium parts.

I could add Jp, Wilson, others to the list. I Mike, depends what I see in stock.

Then one of the things that I’ve changed about my usual buying habits. really I’ll spend a month or two researching every pro and con, every review, every picture is read, every “hey is this normal on this gun?” question...

This time however, I just went and bought everything. I’m pretty much of the opinion that every gun review site out there just straight sucks, but no, I just can’t get in real honest opinion of a gun off the Internet, we’re going to handle at at the gun store.

I really thought I was done when I paid for the KAC. Wasn’t until I got at home, and really started going over it that I just couldn’t see where all the money went.

I need like five hours with a gun, just to get an initial impression.

Too bad there is no option for me where I live to get hands on things before buying.

Mine too.  

My first AR10 was an Eagle Arms A4.  That was heavy enough I didn't fool myself on future 308 AR's.  I ended up with 2 more, an Armalite AR-10T and a build using Armalite lower and Noveske HBar 18" barrel.  Both of the AR10's are excellent shooters and I do enjoy them but just too heavy for general carrying around.  Made me appreciate the 6.8's a lot more!

Nice writeup.  I'm also someone who never really got the whole KAC mystique.  Bought a KAC SR30 upper a few years ago in part because it was inexplicably on sale for about 50% off the retail price.  It's a nice upper, has been reliable and is pretty soft shooting.  At about the same time I also bought a Radical Firearms upper, also in 300 BO.  I think both have 11.5" barrels.

Is the KAC better made?  Yeah.  But even at 50% off it's retail price it still cost nearly three times what I paid for the Radical upper.  Of course, I haven't done any side by side comparisons where I drag both rifles through the mud, don't clean them for 10,000 rounds, and then run another 2,000 rounds through each on full auto.  But that's not the kind of shooting I do or anticipate ever doing.

I suspect our view of the world is not going to be appreciated to those who are huge KAC fanboys and maybe we're just not discerning enough to appreciate the obvious superiority of KAC.  However, shooting both rifles side by side I've never really noticed a huge difference in the speed or accuracy with which I can put rounds on target nor the overall reliability of either upper.  

Also, own an Armalite AR10 I've probably owned for 20 years (it's actually part of the group buy that Armalite did for AR15 members that those of you who have been on this forum forever may remember).  Gun has always been reliable and pretty accurate.  Once I come close to shooting out the barrel I'm tempted to replace the existing barrel with a stainless match barrel to see if I can turn it into a real long range shooter.

I'd love to see these compared to a LaRue, and a newer small frame model like the Savage, POF, Adams Arms, etc

My small frame DPMSs are about 2 inches longer and maybe 6oz heavier than a similar AR15.

I did not know that LarryG had passed. RIP and condolences to any that knew him.

My lesson learned was that my AR-10 DEF10 showed that pencil barrels are not to be scoffed at. I took off the GI type handguards, added an Armalite free float in keymod along with a an SLR micro gas block that I had pinned to the barrel. Everyone that hefts it has expected it to be heavier than it looks or shoots like a cannon yet is the easiest .308 to shoot. Of course I did add a Sprinco spring and a BCM Gunfighter flash suppressor/comp hybrid to help with muzzle recovery and felt reoil, so it may have had something to do with that

I still have a Gen 1 PSA PA10 I got when they first came out.  Works great, very accurate, no complaints except that it's the only Keymod rifle I have.

If it bothers you at all, Armalite now makes their free floats in Mlok. I'm going to leave my keymod on, I don't want to mess up my zero at all unless the barrel nuts are the same.

Shopping for premium guns is the absolute worst. Nobody does comparative reviews, most owners just spout purchase justification, and no gun store carries everything you'd cross shop. It seems all you can do is buy em, sort em, and sell the losers.

Customized DPMS G2 and a POF Rogue have been serving me well.
Rogue is next to get customized.

I just put a Armalite ar10 tac18 on layaway at my lgs. I have to say it looks like a really nice rifle. Comes with a bunch of extras.Radian raptor ch, magpul flip up sights & furniture, magpul 25rd mag, ambi safety.

Just spotted this thread everyone has different tastes on the .308 AR-10, personally I wanted to build a custom long range rifle built with quality components,ballistic advantage pro barrel , Larue custom trigger, Samson M-Lock rail, New Frontier Armory Upper and Lower, KAK LR-308 BCG DOUBLE EJECTOR, M4-72 compensate, Superlative adjustable gas block,Troy Battle Sights, custom Stock, Springs etc...Leopold Scope and it was not cheap or light...and took time to fine tune but was phenomenally accurate, unfortunately lost it in boating accident sometime back...

Good post op, i agree with most of your assessments and would only add:
Having fired many of the firearms you mention, i would suggest looking at the DD5...it is my favorite out of all my children

I agree, this is a great post OP. In another thread I mentioned I too owned a 716i but couldn't afford to buy and equip the other weapon systems that you mentioned. You've articulated the pros and cons for those of us that under normal circumstances would pass up on these top teir choices for the better value. Sometimes it pays, sometimes it doesn't.
Yesterday I got out for the first time and shot 150rds through my SIG716i. It is a solid platform. I need to work on fundamentals and get a better trigger but not one failure. I don't have anything to compare it to AR-10 wise but it shoots, handles, and looks way better than my SOCOM16. It is truly an amazing value.
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I've been buying them for years. I had the same issue you discussed, but sent them an email where they provided me stuff to ship back and get it replaced. This was the first issue I've had with any of their products and I own a handful of rails and all of their lightweight parts pretty much. It disappointed me that I had this problem, but they quickly got back to me. I'm surprised they didn't with you.

This can end the thread really. It's TOO TRUE.

I'm pretty convinced the only way really do it, is to buy everything and get rid of the losers.

if you want to LARP an 308 than the first thing you need to do is go to the gym and get your man card renewed.

I like my Saint. I think it’s under 8 pounds with nothin on it. Shoots 3 inch groups with Lake City M80.

Definitely under budget for the OP. Think I gave 1100 out the door pre-Rona.

Always wanted to build an AR-10 (SR25) with one of those Dracos Straightjacket barrels

Springfield Armory Victor Saint.  

Love mine.

Very nice setup- I have a 30yr old 10-B, shoots very well, better than me. I like the STANAG scopes but my old eyes need more magnification. Really wish I could find a 12X that doesn’t weigh 2 lbs, my 15x weighs 3lbs=too much

I have experience with Larue's (large frame) and LMT MWS's.  I still have a PredatOBR, and regret selling the MWS (and an OBR).  But the point is I still have the PredatOBR.  Here's what I can do with that rifle:

I can set it up with a 16" 7.62 barrel and an NX8 (1-8) and have a carry AR that also is VERY Capable of hitting to 750 supersonic and even to 1,000 with general reliability (with the optic being a limiting factor) (175SMKs).  

THEN, I can remove the 16" and throw in a 22" .260 barrel, put on a S&B 5-25 and I'm supersonic beyond 1400.  I can do this repeatedly with no noticeable shift in zero.  It's uncanny.  I have shift in zero with my other switch caliber (all bolt actions).  But the Larue goes back to where it's supposed to every time.  

So, I can switch back and forth.  Practically, I mostly leave it in the carry 16" config, but it's an awful lot of fun to shoot past 1,000 with a gas gun.

ETA:  An FRT-15 trigger does not work with a PredatOBR.

Good post.  

To this, I shall add my own monolog on the topic.  Let the eye-rolls commence - this post won't be for everyone.


I'm not really satisfied with most medium caliber platforms available right now (where I consider "medium" to be 30-50 gr gunpowder based rounds, like .308 et. al).   The AR10 platform in particular leaves more to be desired than I appreciated.  They're excessively heavy for what you get in most renditions.  They just aren't as engineering refined as I would have hoped.

It's like....  OK, how about this - let's consider a .22 caliber pistol.  Those are typically blow-back operation, and that works really well in fact.  So well in fact, that some people decided the same blow-back operation will work just fine in something bigger.  And tadaa, that's how you get a blow-back Hi-Point 9mm, with a 2-lb slide you need to make that same concept work on a larger scale.  It just doesn't scale up, and ain't right.  That's kind of how I feel about AR10's.  That BCG concept in AR10 .308 size just ain't right.  And all of them are built around it; and it's the achielle's heel of all of them.






I think an AR10 can be made better with a modern lighter barrel and a receiver set that doesn't have that stupid extra 2" of metal sticking back there adding all that extra weight.  But nobody is doing that - most renditions of AR10 have that terrible pig of a receiver design, and come with overweight barrels that don't deliver the accuracy of that mass anyway.  The worst part though is the BCG.  Holy crap, that thing is a small truck.  





It's not just the mass of carrying the thing, it's the cycling.  That MASSIVE AR10 BCG slams back and forth like a brink in a paint-mixer.  It's just too much mass, and beats the shit out of everything.  Look at a Garand - the reciprocating parts consist of a fairly light bolt, and the hollow gas rod.  That's it.  It works, and the recoil and recover is way smoother than an AR10 is.  A 30-06 M1 Garand has 1/2 the cycle time of an AR15.  Imagine the recoil impulse you'd get from an AR10 if you tried cycling up that BCG that fast.  I find a bolt-action rifle in the same caliber of similar weight has less recoil and is faster back on target than an AR10 is.  I asked a friend of mine who shoots PRS about it, and his answer basically was "Yep, that's why most serious PRS shooters use Bolt Actions; they can get back on target and follow their trace better than they can with an AR10".  That's quite a statement.


vs the reciprocating mass of a 30-06 Garand for chrissake (plus op-rod not in photo, so not completely fair, but still.. c'mon mAn!




The problem is, most other older systems are dated, and not so well adept to the desires of the more modern shooter world.  Few of the FAL designs were intended for the accuracy and optics preferences of our modern times.  Most "piston" systems are bastadizations forced to fit in the AR10 size.  The M1A and Garand systems are good for their day, but have limitations today, and on platforms that just don't support the modern modular preferences.  The SCAR does better than most.  And that oversized plastic and stamped gun can be yours for $3k, and IMHO it still isn't quite right.  

You know what I found that fits the bill best?   Grendel.   That little bastard fits in a standard AR15 frame, runs a 123 gr bullet out to 1000yards staying supersonic the whole way, and hits a deer at 300 yards with 1000 ft-lb of energy.  That round is kind of amazing.  

This.

People love the idea of a .308 AR until they realize that unless they have an actual need for a .308 over a 5.56 it often times doesn't make a lot of sense for the average guy.

Not as plug and play as a small frame, heavier gun, more recoil, more expensive ammo. A big wake up call I have seen is lots of people expecting to shoot small groups with one like they do a small frame. Large frame gassers are a different animal and I have seen a ton of people wonder why they can't shoot those tiny groups with their expensive new .308 gasser.

Having owned or spent a lot of time with most flavors available I tell friends that are hell bent on getting one to buy a Larue UU kit if they are on a budget or an SR25 if they want to go full on big block AR crazy. IME both are good guns and both are really easy to sell once the love is gone. Any friend that wants to build their own .308 AR I just stop talking to.

A lightweight bolt carrier and adjustable gas block solves most of what you are describing.

You lost me when you're first point was to comment on the "fit and finish" of your SR-25. If that is your criteria for rating your big bore AR-10s then the rest of your article isnt worth reading.

Im not a KAC fanboy by any means but to judge a fighting rifle by fit and finish is asinine.

If .223 / 5.56 is a bit light for some applications and the rifle in .308 / 7.62 is too unwieldy, there may be room for an intermediate step as @lazyengineer suggests.

Perhaps .243 / 6mm, .264 / 6.5mm, or .270 / 6.8mm, or .284 / 7mm would be candidates for a more optimized medium/heavy caliber in this platform.

The Grendel is pretty badass.

My barret rec10 absolutely will not work with a silencerco omega and every single POF rifle we had on the rental range I worked at was 100% garbage.