User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 7/14/2012 10:22:58 AM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By D51208:
Is there just a plain old skeletonized milspec trigger? I'm not to concerned with pull weight, as long is the trigger and hammer is mechanically accurate, reliable, and consistent. Any ideas in the below $100 range? extrapolate on what you mean by 'skeletonized'... |
|
|
|
NY, USA
|
Posted: 7/29/2012 11:42:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: D51208]
[#2]
A normal, run of the mill non adjustable trigger that has holes drilled into it. Something that looks like the timminey but not 2 stage or adjustable. I was looking into mega arms tactical, but that still seems a little expensive. Know of any others?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2012 11:26:39 AM EDT
[#3]
Originally Posted By D51208:
A normal, run of the mill non adjustable trigger that has holes drilled into it. Something that looks like the timminey but not 2 stage or adjustable. I was looking into mega arms tactical, but that still seems a little expensive. Know of any others? yeah. alexander arms. one of my favorites for the cost associated with it... fantastic trigger! very reasonable price. |
|
|
|
NY, USA
|
Posted: 7/30/2012 9:21:32 PM EDT
[#4]
ahh excellent. Thank you.
|
|
|
AL, USA
|
Posted: 1/16/2013 11:11:28 AM EDT
[#5]
GEISSELE for the win!
My favorite is the Super Dynamic 3-Gun Be safe and good shooting, B |
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 1/18/2013 11:31:00 AM EDT
[#6]
I have started using the AR Gold Trigger for precision and competition guns. It is a great single stage, very clean and very fast trigger.
Most, if not all, of the top 3 Gun Nation shooters are running these triggers now. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/1/2013 10:56:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MojoTexas]
[#7]
I just installed the Wilson Combat TTU, 2-stage in my Bushmaster. HUGE improvement, and I love the trigger.
Installation was quick and easy. You knock out the hammer pin and trigger pin, drop in the TTU, and then pin back in place. While I was at it I replaced the pins with the KNS Precision Gen 2 Mod 2 pins. Just wanted to give a thumb's up review. 
Wilson Combat Trigger Units |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 9/2/2013 8:34:04 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By biglucky:
I have started using the AR Gold Trigger for precision and competition guns. It is a great single stage, very clean and very fast trigger. Most, if not all, of the top 3 Gun Nation shooters are running these triggers now. Am looking at the AR Gold trigger myself for my Oracle. Will be the first time installing a trigger but doesn't look to bad to do. Reading there FAQ, looks like the SR Gold trigger is needed for DPMS 308's. Might as well do it right the first time and spend the money on a higher quality trigger. |
|
|
MN, USA
|
Posted: 9/17/2013 6:33:22 PM EDT
[#9]
I wouldn't choose the setup of a military Colt M4 Carbine. With the KAC RAS rails, an Aimpoint, PEC15, GI sling, and BUIS; many of our rifles (not all) would not fire if you let the entire rifle hang on the trigger. So that's about an 11lb+ trigger, and it's usually pretty gritty. To the point where guys could score better on qualification with most any other trigger.
That said, the RRA 2 stage is exceptional for something in a (currently about) $850 M4gery. |
|
|
MS, USA
|
Posted: 9/25/2013 12:45:14 PM EDT
[#10]
Geissele SSA-E. That was Bill's recommendation to me based on my description of how I intended to use the weapon. He was right. WOW! This was transformational for me in my S&W M&P 15 lower, compared to the stock trigger.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/22/2013 11:34:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Essayons]
[#11]
Great thread, OP! Thank you. I don't know why it took me so long to find it.
I see JP has dropped their drop-in trigger. Now they offer the EZ Trigger - a "component" trigger package which includes their trigger, high speed hammer, safety and springs along with the required allen wrenches. Or, you can buy the individual fire control components separately. LINK. ETA - I am not associated with JP in any way. OP, I'd love to see an update including the JP component trigger. JP makes my favorite single-stage trigger, and Geissele makes my favorite two-stage triggers. Another useful addition to this thread would be a long-term comparison, but someone would have to volunteer to keep track of the round count and report problems. I will toss one more thing out there. I just moved a JP component trigger from one lower receiver to another. I've been using the trigger for years and the adjustable set screws have never created problems--until I tried to remove the trigger. Breaking tiny set screws loose after several years can be a real pain. Never an issue with the non-adjustable Geisseles. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 12/23/2013 12:49:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Essayons:
Great thread, OP! Thank you. I don't know why it took me so long to find it. I see JP has dropped their drop-in trigger. Now they offer the EZ Trigger - a "component" trigger package which includes their trigger, high speed hammer, safety and springs along with the required allen wrenches. Or, you can buy the individual fire control components separately. LINK. ETA - I am not associated with JP in any way. OP, I'd love to see an update including the JP component trigger. JP makes my favorite single-stage trigger, and Geissele makes my favorite two-stage triggers. Another useful addition to this thread would be a long-term comparison, but someone would have to volunteer to keep track of the round count and report problems. I will toss one more thing out there. I just moved a JP component trigger from one lower receiver to another. I've been using the trigger for years and the adjustable set screws have never created problems--until I tried to remove the trigger. Breaking tiny set screws loose after several years can be a real pain. Never an issue with the non-adjustable Geisseles. i'll holler at john paul and we'll get it rolling. i also have the TACON trigger coming in. i think they will be really neat to evaluate, as there are some significant misunderstandings about what they are and aren't... |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 3/2/2014 8:12:09 PM EDT
[#13]
anyone ever try the Hiperfire trigger yet? gimmic or gear?
|
|
|
CA, USA
|
Posted: 3/10/2014 3:57:33 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By biglucky:
I have started using the AR Gold Trigger for precision and competition guns. It is a great single stage, very clean and very fast trigger. Most, if not all, of the top 3 Gun Nation shooters are running these triggers now. AR Gold is technically 2-stage. But not like an AR 2-stage, more like custom 1911 trigger. |
|
|
CA, USA
|
Posted: 3/10/2014 4:00:24 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MojoTexas:
I just installed the Wilson Combat TTU, 2-stage in my Bushmaster. HUGE improvement, and I love the trigger. Installation was quick and easy. You knock out the hammer pin and trigger pin, drop in the TTU, and then pin back in place. While I was at it I replaced the pins with the KNS Precision Gen 2 Mod 2 pins. Just wanted to give a thumb's up review.
Wilson Combat Trigger Units My 2nd favorite trigger behind the AR Gold is a Wilson TTU single stage (feels like a nice bolt action trigger). I doubt it needs anti-walk pins as the springs at the bottom of the cassette place a bunch of tension to lock in the fire control pins. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2014 8:31:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Im fine with good quality parts and a set of JP reduced power springs. No need to spend hundreds of dollars on these insanely overpriced priced trigger groups.
|
|
|
|
KS, USA
|
Posted: 4/6/2014 1:37:02 AM EDT
[#17]
I recently picked up a CMC 3.5 lbs SS trigger with a flat blade.
After having used one on a friends AR I thought enhancing my Sig M400 with this trigger would be a solid buy. It's a decent trigger. It was certainly within my price range and I can't wait to try it out when I get home from the Afghan paradise resort reservation I'm trapped in right now.
|
|
|
FL, USA
|
Posted: 4/19/2014 10:16:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By P0WERWAGON:
anyone ever try the Hiperfire trigger yet? gimmic or gear? I have a Hipertouch 24E in one of my guns and an SSA-E in the other. I love them both, but I do like the Hipertouch for my fun/sporting gun. It's a great pull with a very clean break and short, quick reset. I'm not sure I would hunt with it (like I do with my SSA-E) due to the much lighter trigger springs I have in it (2lb), but for what I use it, it's awesome! Here's an external review for interest. Hipertouch review Another If your LGS carries Barnes Precision guns, you can probably pull a Hiperfire in a BPM gun factory installed. I love mine! |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/23/2014 6:41:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Where are the large pin (.170") old Colt compatible FCS @? I'm finding a hammer here, a trigger there.
|
|
|
|
CA, USA
|
Posted: 8/26/2014 1:48:08 AM EDT
[#20]
I'm looking for a good trigger for a reasonably lightweight field gun. Field meaning carrying it around and shooting it from standing, kneeling, or prone - maybe braced on something - rather than off a bench. I've heard good things about the ALG ACT, is there anything else I should look at? Should I look into one of the funny grip screws that allows for adjustment of pre-travel?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/17/2014 1:25:42 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By noob:
I'm looking for a good trigger for a reasonably lightweight field gun. Field meaning carrying it around and shooting it from standing, kneeling, or prone - maybe braced on something - rather than off a bench. I've heard good things about the ALG ACT, is there anything else I should look at? Should I look into one of the funny grip screws that allows for adjustment of pre-travel? i'd consider the geissele G2S if you're on a budget. the SSA or SSA-E are awesome too. as far as over travel screws via the grip, they're ok, but the travel isn't excessive with those triggers, so i rarely consider it a problem. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 10/22/2014 10:01:46 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By soflguy:
I have a Hipertouch 24E in one of my guns and an SSA-E in the other. I love them both, but I do like the Hipertouch for my fun/sporting gun. It's a great pull with a very clean break and short, quick reset. I'm not sure I would hunt with it (like I do with my SSA-E) due to the much lighter trigger springs I have in it (2lb), but for what I use it, it's awesome! Here's an external review for interest. Hipertouch review Another If your LGS carries Barnes Precision guns, you can probably pull a Hiperfire in a BPM gun factory installed. I love mine! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By soflguy:
Originally Posted By P0WERWAGON:
anyone ever try the Hiperfire trigger yet? gimmic or gear? I have a Hipertouch 24E in one of my guns and an SSA-E in the other. I love them both, but I do like the Hipertouch for my fun/sporting gun. It's a great pull with a very clean break and short, quick reset. I'm not sure I would hunt with it (like I do with my SSA-E) due to the much lighter trigger springs I have in it (2lb), but for what I use it, it's awesome! Here's an external review for interest. Hipertouch review Another If your LGS carries Barnes Precision guns, you can probably pull a Hiperfire in a BPM gun factory installed. I love mine! I have a 24c with the shoe. Very innovative with 2 added springs. It is very fun to shoot, light trigger pull, fast reset, no creep, and clean break. I enjoy shooting that more than sd3g and ssa-e. Double taps can yield crazy tight groups. I use the 24c on my 18" spr build, and it's a blast |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 12/6/2014 2:10:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Has anyone used a Velocity trigger? I picked up another LE6920 (used) and it has the typical gritty trigger, lots of creep etc, and was looking at it as a replacement. This rifle will be used to target shoot paper at the range and some occasional predator hunting.
My other 6920 still has the stock trigger which I had a guy add a spring kit and smooth out the trigger which was a great improvement but I'd like to go a different route this time. http://www.velocitytriggers.com/shop.php?area=AR-15+Triggers |
|
|
IA, USA
|
Posted: 1/25/2015 1:33:00 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Somebeach:
Has anyone used a Velocity trigger? I picked up another LE6920 (used) and it has the typical gritty trigger, lots of creep etc, and was looking at it as a replacement. This rifle will be used to target shoot paper at the range and some occasional predator hunting. My other 6920 still has the stock trigger which I had a guy add a spring kit and smooth out the trigger which was a great improvement but I'd like to go a different route this time. http://www.velocitytriggers.com/shop.php?area=AR-15+Triggers Just picked one up. Haven't seen any reviews so I bought it blindly and hope I didn't waste $120. I haven't taken it out to the range yet but will be as soon as my bcg comes in on monday and will let you know what I think. I'm no professional so won't have a great review by any means but hopefully can provide a little guidance. So far I've got it installed and just dry firing it it feels great. It's extremely light compared to the mil spec at only 3lbs. It's very smooth, and has a very short yet clean reset. I hope it shoots as well as it feels so far. |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 2/7/2015 1:39:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Where did you purchase it from?
|
|
|
LA, USA
|
Posted: 2/9/2015 10:44:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Anyone know anything about Elfman triggers? They're supposed to be 100% drop safe, and instead of just bushings, the hammer and trigger rotate on needle bearings. They have several models, and they're priced around the price of the AR Gold trigger. Their web site is elfmantactical.com. I was thinking about getting one for a 300 Blackout, I'm building...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 2/9/2015 11:43:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: backbencher]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerslayer69: Anyone know anything about Elfman triggers? They're supposed to be 100% drop safe, and instead of just bushings, the hammer and trigger rotate on needle bearings. They have several models, and they're priced around the price of the AR Gold trigger. Their web site is elfmantactical.com. I was thinking about getting one for a 300 Blackout, I'm building... They're dead, Jim. I'm a doctor, not an internet server administrator. Google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:N4ueZqEmJpYJ:elftmanntactical.com/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us |
|
|
|
WV, USA
|
Posted: 2/10/2015 9:09:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerslayer69:
Anyone know anything about Elfman triggers? They're supposed to be 100% drop safe, and instead of just bushings, the hammer and trigger rotate on needle bearings. They have several models, and they're priced around the price of the AR Gold trigger. Their web site is elfmantactical.com. I was thinking about getting one for a 300 Blackout, I'm building... Just an uneducated quick observation. The trigger looks like it could be broken, and I lost all respect when I saw the two finger trigger. |
|
|
LA, USA
|
Posted: 2/13/2015 12:01:52 AM EDT
[#29]
What looks broke about it? I know a couple of guys who use ELF triggers, and they say they're nice triggers. I agree about the two finger trigger, though... Just wondered if anybody else had one. Trying to decide what kind of trigger I want to get for my new build. Lots of choices out there...
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 3/13/2015 12:25:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Just my $0.02... New to the AR platform, but certainly not to shooting. Installed a Geissele SSA-E in my Daniel Defense DDM4V11 and it's a dream. The install was very easy and I would rank this trigger somewhere between the perfection (for me) of my Anschutz 1913/1918 Precise and the Jewell running in my R700 5R .308. Take-up and travel of the first stage is as smooth as butter with a distinct stop at the second. From there it's a candy cane crisp break to fire. Lovely piece of engineering if you ask me.
|
|
|
WA, USA
|
Posted: 4/20/2015 10:08:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerslayer69:
What looks broke about it? I know a couple of guys who use ELF triggers, and they say they're nice triggers. I agree about the two finger trigger, though... Just wondered if anybody else had one. Trying to decide what kind of trigger I want to get for my new build. Lots of choices out there... I have two Elfmann 3gun Triggers. The pull and reset is shorter than the Timney and it's also adjustable 2.75-4.0lbs. I've shot the SD-E, SD3G, JP, Timney 3lb, and Hyperfire 24-3G and the Elfmann is better IMHO. Very easy to bumpfire. |
|
|
CO, USA
|
Posted: 4/23/2015 1:45:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DenverDave]
[#32]
This is a great thread. Thanks to the originator, very well done. I have a SSA-E on my precision gun and really like it. Next precision build I am keen to try the DMR or High Speed Rifle. I have never dealt with an adjustable trigger so am a hesitant.
What are peoples thoughts on the LaRue MBT-25 trigger? The specs seem like it is similar to the SSA in pull weight at each stage 2.5/2lbs. Can anyone give a comparison of the two? Or compare the LaRue to the SSA-E although the pull weights are different I am most familiar with the SSA-E Thanks |
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 5/20/2015 5:22:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Deerslayer69:
Anyone know anything about Elfman triggers? They're supposed to be 100% drop safe, and instead of just bushings, the hammer and trigger rotate on needle bearings. They have several models, and they're priced around the price of the AR Gold trigger. Their web site is elfmantactical.com. I was thinking about getting one for a 300 Blackout, I'm building... I am completely a noob to AR's so none of what I say may be of any help but I thought I would give my impression of them from actually handling one. I am actually still building my first AR. Being a 1911 guy with several Dan Wessons, I have a liking for very crisp triggers with almost no over travel or take up. Before even receiving my lower and LPK, I came across an Elf trigger in a test jig at my local range. From the first press of the trigger I knew I had found a trigger that shared the same attributes as my DW's. I did some research afterwards and found that the users of them had nothing bad to say about them. Many seemed to say that they only like the AR Gold better and that is because the Gold is a 2 stage trigger. Not sure what the Gold feels like or how it compares to others though. Now that I have my lower and my LPK I have played with my mil-spec trigger and immediately ordered the JP spring kit. While it is now light, it certainly is not even close to the feel of the Elf. I wish I had the ability to sample some others before I commit to the Elf. |
|
|
FL, USA
|
Posted: 5/27/2015 11:00:55 PM EDT
[#34]
I don't mind taking a gamble sometimes...so I purchased the elftmann flat 3 gun trigger and it should be here tomorrow. I'll drop it in to my sbr and compare it to my geissele sd3g. I'm hoping that it'll be competitive with the sd3g.
 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/29/2015 10:54:37 PM EDT
[#35]
Can mods revive OP's pics ?
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/7/2015 7:06:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Can mods revive OP's pics ? why? what's up mark? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/7/2015 9:50:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LaRue_Tactical]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By septic-tank13:
why? what's up mark? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By septic-tank13:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Can mods revive OP's pics ? why? what's up mark? Thread loses it's sting a little without pics? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/10/2015 10:29:56 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Thread loses it's sting a little without pics? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By septic-tank13:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Can mods revive OP's pics ? why? what's up mark? Thread loses it's sting a little without pics? i'm not sure what you mean. i can see all the pics from my computer. i hit the F5 key to refresh several times and they are right there. is there a problem i don't know about? i have them hosted on a photobucket account that is in good standing, so there shouldn't be an issue. can anyone else advise? -michael |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/10/2015 12:52:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Heck, now I can see them too. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/14/2015 10:39:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Heck, now I can see them too. by gummy...
|
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 7/28/2015 6:53:01 PM EDT
[#41]
I know I'm late to this party, but can anyone give me their opinion (with real life experience to back it up) on the JP Enterprises Armageddon Revolution Trigger? I've been looking at it for a new build, but haven't been able to find one to test out. FWIW, I have McCormick and Timney triggers on other builds already.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/6/2015 5:08:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Late for the original party, but just in time for mine. Thanks for the effort. I admire the humility, my wife keeps my head grounded as well. Pics are fine for this reading.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/6/2015 5:47:12 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm one of those old timers still using 2 stage KAC, LMTs, and a RRAs.
Haven't had the slightest problem with any of the three. |
|
|
|
CA, USA
|
Posted: 9/19/2015 6:05:45 PM EDT
[#44]
i have a question. i am looking to buy a trigger but need some help picking but my main question is. if i install a (full auto bolt carrier) and any 2 or sinlge stage trigger does that automatically make it a full auto even though the trigger is a semi auto.
the triggers i am interested are giessle ssa tac con 3mr hiperfire th24 |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/19/2015 8:44:20 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By pepsramirez:
i have a question. i am looking to buy a trigger but need some help picking but my main question is. if i install a (full auto bolt carrier) and any 2 or sinlge stage trigger does that automatically make it a full auto even though the trigger is a semi auto. No, a full auto trigger group has an auto sear as a fourth part you won't get in a semi-auto trigger group, which has only trigger, hammer, and disconnector, and that auto sear pivots on an additional pin which semi-auto lowers will not have. |
|
|
|
IN, USA
|
Posted: 11/2/2015 8:06:00 PM EDT
[#46]
I bought an Elftmann 3gun trigger a while back, and it's the most amazing AR trigger I've ever pulled. I have shot CMC a lot, RRA 2 stage, Geissele, and a Tac con briefly. The Elf trigger feels like it belongs in a nice bolt rifle or a 1911. It has zero take up or creep, and a nice short reset. I haven't had it long enough to comment on durability but I'm sold on another. It's in my accuracy rifle now, but i switch uppers occasionally because it's just so fun to shoot fast!
http://www.elftmanntactical.com/store/product/elf-3-gun-trigger/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 11/4/2015 6:46:09 AM EDT
[#47]
High noon.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 11/25/2015 5:21:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gee223:
I bought an Elftmann 3gun trigger a while back, and it's the most amazing AR trigger I've ever pulled. I have shot CMC a lot, RRA 2 stage, Geissele, and a Tac con briefly. The Elf trigger feels like it belongs in a nice bolt rifle or a 1911. It has zero take up or creep, and a nice short reset. I haven't had it long enough to comment on durability but I'm sold on another. It's in my accuracy rifle now, but i switch uppers occasionally because it's just so fun to shoot fast!
http://www.elftmanntactical.com/store/product/elf-3-gun-trigger/ So are they all single stage? |
|
|
|
WA, USA
|
Posted: 12/12/2015 1:04:15 PM EDT
[#49]
Elfmann triggers are single stage. Shortest reset and zero creep compared to every trigger I've ever tried (Geissele, CMC, Timney, AR Gold, Hiperfire)
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 2/11/2016 11:58:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Bizarro]
[#50]
I am wanting a better trigger for my beater and was looking at the Bravo Company PNT Trigger Assembly - AR-15, not wanting to spend >$100.00. Would I see much of a benefit in putting a lighter trigger/sear spring set on this trigger and keep the stock weight hammer spring for reliability with cheaper ammo?
Was searching triggers and found this odd bird www.triggertech |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
