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Posted: 6/3/2026 9:11:33 PM EDT
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There isn't a lot of consensus these days about what constitutes a Recce Rifle vs a General Purpose Rifle. I know that the Recce Rifle concept is "based on" the NSW Recce Rifle with a 15.1" barrel, but obviously most Recce Rifles that people refer to as such are 16" guns (or they'll call them a Mini Recce) with an LPVO. As for GPRs, there's again a lot of broad strokes--sometimes it's a 12.5 with LPVO, other times a 14.5 with ACOG. Yes, I realize that technically speaking whatever rifle you want can be a GPR. As for me, I think they're pretty much the same thing--a 13.7-16" rifle with a magnified optic, light, and laser, that can be used day or night, near or far. The Wolfpack AW-15 has been excellent for me on all fronts, and I was especially impressed with 1MOA accuracy from a chrome-lined barrel. So, what do you consider them to be? Do you think GPRs and Recce Rifles are the same thing, sometimes the same, or no overlap? |
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No. The RECCE is an accurized carbine with focus on medium range engagement. A GPR is a bit too loose/generic in definition. The influence the RECCE had still goes strong today though. The high quality stainless barrel is pretty much dead, but the philosophy lives strong in error, often as the “GPR”. Lots of guys running around with some SHTF fantasy of plinking invading commies danger free with no spotter at 700 yards with a $100 nitride barrel and M193 because they put a 1-8 on top of it. |
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Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: No. The RECCE is an accurized carbine with focus on medium range engagement. A GPR is a bit too loose/generic in definition. The influence the RECCE had still goes strong today though. The high quality stainless barrel is pretty much dead, but the philosophy lives strong in error, often as the “GPR”. Lots of guys running around with some SHTF fantasy of plinking invading commies danger free with no spotter at 700 yards with a $100 nitride barrel and M193 because they put a 1-8 on top of it. What do you consider to be accurized? A decent FF rail and mid to high quality barrel will put most ARs at the 1-2 MOA level, which makes 600yds very doable with the appropriate ammo. This WPA rifle for instance is a chrome lined barrel and doesn’t have any specific accurizing elements. |
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Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: No. The RECCE is an accurized carbine with focus on medium range engagement. A GPR is a bit too loose/generic in definition. The influence the RECCE had still goes strong today though. The high quality stainless barrel is pretty much dead, but the philosophy lives strong in error, often as the “GPR”. Lots of guys running around with some SHTF fantasy of plinking invading commies danger free with no spotter at 700 yards with a $100 nitride barrel and M193 because they put a 1-8 on top of it. I would continue that line of thought with a recce can be a gpr but a gpr doesn't necessarily mean its a recce. I wouldn't call a 12.5 with rds a recce. GPRs have just such a broad range due to people's needs/wants. |
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Originally Posted By 03RN: I would continue that line of thought with a recce can be a gpr but a gpr doesn't necessarily mean its a recce. I wouldn't call a 12.5 with rds a recce. GPRs have just such a broad range due to people's needs/wants. I think a rectangle/square analogy is a good one. |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: What barrels are you saying will reliably shoot 10 round groups <= 1 moa? I've found only a couple manufacturers capable of actually doing this reliably. Geissele is not one of them. Geissele is indeed one of them, Daniel Defense is the the other. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Ammo 75 grain TAP in .223. I am getting in my 11.5 Ballistic Advantage chrome lined barrel 2moa at 100 yeards when I use the proper scope. it widens to no more than 3.6 Moa after 30 more rounds. 11.5 Colt barrel is getting me 2.5 Moa with a 11.5 barrel. 11.5 BRT Barrel is getting me 1.5 Moa but it is a polygonal rifling. So the ironic way to look at this is you never know what you are really to get with a barrel I am wondering if there would be a difference between a 12.5 carbine vs a 12.5 midlength gas due to recoil impulse from shot to shot. |
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Originally Posted By aftac: I am wondering if there would be a difference between a 12.5 carbine vs a 12.5 midlength gas due to recoil impulse from shot to shot. IMO, from experimenting with both of those - there is no difference between 12.5 mid and 12.5 carbine UNLESS you are doing a suppressed-only-sized gas port. |
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Originally Posted By aftac: Ammo 75 grain TAP in .223. I am getting in my 11.5 Ballistic Advantage chrome lined barrel 2moa at 100 yeards when I use the proper scope. it widens to no more than 3.6 Moa after 30 more rounds. 11.5 Colt barrel is getting me 2.5 Moa with a 11.5 barrel. 11.5 BRT Barrel is getting me 1.5 Moa but it is a polygonal rifling. So the ironic way to look at this is you never know what you are really to get with a barrel I am wondering if there would be a difference between a 12.5 carbine vs a 12.5 midlength gas due to recoil impulse from shot to shot. Originally Posted By the-answer-is-42: IMO, from experimenting with both of those - there is no difference between 12.5 mid and 12.5 carbine UNLESS you are doing a suppressed-only-sized gas port. Are you talking about a felt recoil difference or an accuracy difference? |
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Originally Posted By aftac: Ammo 75 grain TAP in .223. I am getting in my 11.5 Ballistic Advantage chrome lined barrel 2moa at 100 yeards when I use the proper scope. it widens to no more than 3.6 Moa after 30 more rounds. 11.5 Colt barrel is getting me 2.5 Moa with a 11.5 barrel. 11.5 BRT Barrel is getting me 1.5 Moa but it is a polygonal rifling. So the ironic way to look at this is you never know what you are really to get with a barrel I am wondering if there would be a difference between a 12.5 carbine vs a 12.5 midlength gas due to recoil impulse from shot to shot. I have a 14.5" Colt SOCOM barrel that gets 1.2-1.4 MOA with AAC 77-grain and a 16" BRT Optimum CL that gets 1.3-1.5 MOA with the same ammo. |
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Originally Posted By bluedog82: I think FN is another contender, I’d have to double check but my 14.5 was right at or above 1 MOA. FN pretty much stated it will their Chrome Lined A5 SPR bolt action rifle barrels. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bluedog82: What do you consider to be accurized? A decent FF rail and mid to high quality barrel will put most ARs at the 1-2 MOA level, which makes 600yds very doable with the appropriate ammo. This WPA rifle for instance is a chrome lined barrel and doesn’t have any specific accurizing elements. RECCE isn’t a use, but was roughly adapted as a stainless heavy barreled carbine length gun with low to mid power magnification. While a GPR could fit the needs of a RECCE in modern times, it’s still just use philosophy semantics. A GPR could be a 10.3” HD gun, it could be a 20” ranch rifle, or it could be a spot on military RECCE. It’s a specific configuration versus variable use case. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: Geissele is indeed one of them, Daniel Defense is the the other. Of the 5 geissele barrels owned by my immediate friend group, 2 shoot sub moa, 2 shoot 1.5-2 moa with FGMM, and one won't shoot anything better than 3 moa. This is why I said "consistently," because I'm convinced that chrome lining is an inherently noisy process that tends to produce a lot of variability in barrel accuracy. I do not see this same level of variability for untreated barrels from the same manufacturer. Other tests of DD barrels (e.g. Preston Moore's series) call that claim into question as well.  How Consistent Are Daniel Defense AR-15 Barrels? Accuracy & Measurements Compared I don't think you're appreciating how rare <=moa accuracy really is with a chrome lined barrel. |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: I don't think you're appreciating how rare <=moa accuracy really is with a chrome lined barrel. Maybe I see a more barrels and shoot with a lot more people than you?  If a manufacturer wanted to they could produce a consistent <=MOA barrel. Getting that performance with it attached to a gas gun is another story. After what I've been seeing with many Geissele MRGG barrels - they are 1 MOA barrels. Consistently. I appreciate how hard it is, and get beat up here often for saying there is no such a thing as a sub MOA gas gun. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
| The MRGG is a >$6000 precision rifle. In your previous post you said that DD makes barrels that reliably shoot MOA. I have not seen any testing that shows that to be the case. Likewise with Geissele's Superduty rifles. Some shoot great, some shoot like dogwater. My own personal experiences shooting Geissele, DD, BCM, SOLGW, Larue, on and on, etc show that true sub MOA barrels are not the norm, and that chrome lined sub MOA barrels are even rarer. Barrel accuracy test series confirm this. |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: The MRGG is a >$6000 precision rifle. In your previous post you said that DD makes barrels that reliably shoot MOA. I have not seen any testing that shows that to be the case. Likewise with Geissele's Superduty rifles. Some shoot great, some shoot like dogwater. My own personal experiences shooting Geissele, DD, BCM, SOLGW, Larue, on and on, etc show that true sub MOA barrels are not the norm, and that chrome lined sub MOA barrels are even rarer. Barrel accuracy test series confirm this. Are you talking about shooting factory ammo? I have had at least 3 CL Colt barrels that would print a 1" 10 shot group at 100 yards when reloading for the specific barrel. |
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Originally Posted By Praimfiya: Why do people automatically just assign scopes to GPRs? Some people have no need for scopes; all depends on where you live. Magnified optics also allow you to see things you might not need or want to shoot. Enhancing the general purpose use of the rifle. |
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Originally Posted By Eyekahn: Are you talking about shooting factory ammo? I have had at least 3 CL Colt barrels that would print a 1" 10 shot group at 100 yards when reloading for the specific barrel. Shooting whatever you want. Whenever I hear "well my barrels..." There are usually caveats like "well i pulled those 2 fliers but the rest are clearly under 1" If it's some boutique bullet you'd never use in a match or real life setting like 52g whatever I wouldn't say that really counts. But, if a barrel can only shoot some bizarre load that you can't buy in stores, is it really a moa barrel? |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: Shooting whatever you want. Whenever I hear "well my barrels..." There are usually caveats like "well i pulled those 2 fliers but the rest are clearly under 1" If it's some boutique bullet you'd never use in a match or real life setting like 52g whatever I wouldn't say that really counts. But, if a barrel can only shoot some bizarre load that you can't buy in stores, is it really a moa barrel? Yes, it is. Why wouldn't you use 52gr in real life or a match setting? Especially if it shoots 10 shots in 1". Frank from CLE told me his load of Reloader 15 with a 60gr sierra is almost a one size fits all for any 1/7 barrel to shoot well. Personally 55gr FMJ with a lighter load of tac or varget pushed out to 2.25 oal has been an moa load in many barrels. That's about the most common projectile and powder for 223. You can make a nitride BA barrel crazy accurate if you just do load development with it |
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Originally Posted By Eyekahn: Yes, it is. Why wouldn't you use 52gr in real life or a match setting? Especially if it shoots 10 shots in 1". Frank from CLE told me his load of Reloader 15 with a 60gr sierra is almost a one size fits all for any 1/7 barrel to shoot well. Personally 55gr FMJ with a lighter load of tac or varget pushed out to 2.25 oal has been an moa load in many barrels. That's about the most common projectile and powder for 223. You can make a nitride BA barrel crazy accurate if you just do load development with it For precision gas gun (e.g. Geissele) I'm shooting out to 1050. That light projectile is like a fart in the wind. I care about reproducible consistency. One barrel shooting one bubba's handloads isn't it. |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: For precision gas gun (e.g. Geissele) I'm shooting out to 1050. That light projectile is like a fart in the wind. I care about reproducible consistency. One barrel shooting one bubba's handloads isn't it. Take it easy flexing. Not all matches go out to 1050. I shoot my 16" Bison barrel out to 1000m with 77's all the time. No need to go there... we are discussing 100 yard group of 10 shots at 1 moa. Ever heard of bench rest matches? They are not being shot exclusively with 77gr ammo at 300 and 600. We are not talking about 10 shot groups at 1 moa at 1000m. We are talking about a CL barrel being capable of 10 shots in 1 moa at 100 yards that is the standard when anyone says 1 moa. And one bubbas hand load? I guess all those PRS and precision gas gun shooters are bubbas. Cos they all too load develop for their specific barrel at its specific barrel life. For a guy arguing about accuracy you sure don't sound like you take it as serious as you think. Edit: here's a hot take my custom bartlien I had in a precision AR was the hardest load development I've ever had on the AR platform. |
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Originally Posted By BrandonP: I care about reproducible consistency. One barrel shooting one bubba's handloads isn't it. Here are 8, 10 shot groups at 100yds that I shot on 2 different occasions. Each group was shot from a different position. 6 of those 8 groups squeek in at 1 MOA from my 16" DD chrome lined barrel using 69gr SMKs. And to stay on topic, that rifle with an offset RDS is what I consider my GPR.  |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: Here are 8, 10 shot groups at 100yds that I shot on 2 different occasions. Each group was shot from a different position. 6 of those 8 groups squeek in at 1 MOA from my 16" DD chrome lined barrel using 69gr SMKs. And to stay on topic, that rifle with an offset RDS is what I consider my GPR. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/12678/6-1moa-3773496.jpg Originally Posted By bigbore: Originally Posted By BrandonP: I care about reproducible consistency. One barrel shooting one bubba's handloads isn't it. Here are 8, 10 shot groups at 100yds that I shot on 2 different occasions. Each group was shot from a different position. 6 of those 8 groups squeek in at 1 MOA from my 16" DD chrome lined barrel using 69gr SMKs. And to stay on topic, that rifle with an offset RDS is what I consider my GPR. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/12678/6-1moa-3773496.jpg Vltor Emods really are great for balancing out heavier guns 
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Originally Posted By bigbore: Geissele is indeed one of them, Daniel Defense is the the other. Sorry this is just plain wrong. Cherry picking a 3 round group that happened to be 1 inch is not a sub moa barrel. Shooting multiple 5 round groups or a 10 round group or 2 and consistently having that be sub 1 inch is considered a sub moa barrel. CL barrels just dont do this. Its been proven over and over. If it happens, its exceptionally rare. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: Here are 8, 10 shot groups at 100yds that I shot on 2 different occasions. Each group was shot from a different position. 6 of those 8 groups squeek in at 1 MOA from my 16" DD chrome lined barrel using 69gr SMKs. And to stay on topic, that rifle with an offset RDS is what I consider my GPR. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/12678/6-1moa-3773496.jpg While those are "okay" enough groups, absolutely none of them look anywhere near 1 inch. Nowhere near. Let alone SUB 1 inch. Put a ruler up there. They are not impressive. Your rounds essentially overlap or touch for sub moa. Edit: I went ahead and had AI find the targets and measure them out Attached File Truly sub moa CHF CL barrels are essentially unicorns. Edit 2: Here's a sub moa 5 shot group with a proof 6arc. Attached File Thats .4 inches |
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Originally Posted By aftac: Ammo 75 grain TAP in .223. I am getting in my 11.5 Ballistic Advantage chrome lined barrel 2moa at 100 yeards when I use the proper scope. it widens to no more than 3.6 Moa after 30 more rounds. 11.5 Colt barrel is getting me 2.5 Moa with a 11.5 barrel. 11.5 BRT Barrel is getting me 1.5 Moa but it is a polygonal rifling. So the ironic way to look at this is you never know what you are really to get with a barrel I am wondering if there would be a difference between a 12.5 carbine vs a 12.5 midlength gas due to recoil impulse from shot to shot. I wouldn't consider any of those to be very impressive. And in fact I'd be curious if you could hold 4-6 inch groups at 200 yards. Having said that, I'd (personally) be trying some other ammo types. As they say, some ammo works better with some barrels. |
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Originally Posted By Phiers: While those are "okay" enough groups, absolutely none of them look anywhere near 1 inch. I didn't want to be the one to say it, but I put that picture into Rangebuddy. It's not bad per se, but not "MOA." This is what I meant when I said that people play games around their accuracy claims. "I squeaked it in there," "These couple shots were just fliers, the rest of the group is..." - you get the idea.   But specifically on the topic of the thread, doctrinal accuracy for the DMR applications (rifle / ammo / shooter combination) is 2 MOA. You can relax that requirement a little bit, though the rifle I use for "general purpose" is actually a DMR. Don't get me wrong, I handload for competition as well (typically high pressure ammo), but the rifle I shoot in competition also shoots sub MOA with good factory ammo (FGMM). It is not chrome lined. IME, finding a chrome lined barrel capable of repeatable sub MOA accuracy, especially across a variety of ammunition which you want for a GPR, is exceptionally rare. |
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Originally Posted By Phiers: While those are "okay" enough groups, absolutely none of them look anywhere near 1 inch. Nowhere near. Let alone SUB 1 inch. Put a ruler up there. They are not impressive. Your rounds essentially overlap or touch for sub moa. Edit: I went ahead and had AI find the targets and measure them out https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/554974/1000016126_jpg-3773626.JPG Truly sub moa CHF CL barrels are essentially unicorns. Edit 2: Here's a sub moa 5 shot group with a proof 6arc. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/554974/1000011069_jpg-3773631.JPG Thats .4 inches Random 5 shot groups dont indicate anything. My "OK" groups are 10 rounds each. Of the 6 I am claiming are MOA, if you remove the farthest bullet hole, each of those groups would easily be 9 shot sub MOA groups. But lets keep it all in context of a GPR threads. Those targets are my standard practice 100yd targets. None of those shots were made from a rest. I was not sitting in a chair at a bench with sandbags. I was shooting outside, in 85 degree heat w/8-10MPH winds through mirage, breaking shots at the bottom of each exhale. I don't shoot warm up/practice shots, I shoot as I would be shooting that rifle if I were shooting are something that would shoot back. Those groups, shot from my GPR using factory IMI 69gr ammo in those positions/conditions are damn near ideal. I clearly need work on the standing shots, but even standing I cant imagine that shot placement would matter in reality. With handloads, a bench and sandbags I have no doubt that barrel is capable of 1MOA consistently, but I never shoot from a bench. I would never claim SUB MOA capability. If concern is that barrel caused those fliers and it's not the wobbly positions or the factory ammo, and you really thing I'm holding hard enough that it's the barrel and not me, I'll take that as a compliment. Beyond that, we'll just have to agree to disagree.   |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By Phiers: While those are "okay" enough groups, absolutely none of them look anywhere near 1 inch. Nowhere near. Let alone SUB 1 inch. Put a ruler up there. They are not impressive. Your rounds essentially overlap or touch for sub moa. 1 MOA 1.047" Ok, so my eyeball calibration was off a tad on one. The rest are there. HERE is the link to the target. Print it out and plot them yourself. 
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I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Sigh, post #36. It's getting tiresome. Anyway, back to the thread. Recce rifles make great GPRs. Not all GPRs are recce rifles. As a grab and go rifle, I've been using my suppressed 13.7 SBR with a 3-15 and offset red dot for 2 gun lately. Targets are usually inside 200. I've won matches using the offset the entire time. It's a true general purpose rifle and would probably fit the recce description. Love it.  I don't see deviating from this type of setup any time soon. It'll get you from 0 to 700 pretty comfortably with the right ammo, and you can push it to 1k if it isn't too windy. I do shoot a slightly longer gun in long range comps (18") but this one is a great do-it-all and probably the one I'd grab. |
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The answer the initial question, NO, because the definitions have too much noise. GPR in military terms does not mean the same for a civilian. Recce in military terms does not really apply to a civilian. My "GPR" is a 10.5" 300blk because the chances of me having to be deployed anywhere in the world is ZERO, while my chances of being in the far burbs of Chicago is 99.87%. The chances of me engaging someone at 100 yards....or 50 yards....or even at room distance with an AR is shockingly low to begin with. The chances of me needing to "recon my AO" is pretty much nada as well. However, in terms of maximizing modern optics, 5.56 AR's and ammo capability, the recce style build make the most sense, and by default often becomes a civilian GPR, even if most users don't need or utilize that full capability. *1x6 or 1x8 LPVO *SS 16" barrel (might see shorter barrels now that braces are common and there may be less hassle to get SBR's. *Free floated rail *2 stage trigger *69-77gr SMK/BTHP ammo |
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