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Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint: Range Report (Page 2 of 3)
| I have a 2MOA Aimpoint and it shot so well at 200 yds I decided to try 600yds. I shot a lot of 10's and X's on a national match target. I then tried a Rattle battle silhouette rapid fire. You don't want a decent shooter firing at you with an Aimpoint at that range. I had 15 hits on a 20 round mag, shooting pretty fast. |
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Originally Posted By Gthirteen:
As always, great post. Now more than ever I can see that in addition to posting great threads, you can shoot! Thanks. I have less than stellar eyesight, including astigmastisms in both eyes that don't seem to be correctable with eye glasses. This presents a bit of a challenge for me when shooting with an Aimpoint. I have no doubt that a shooter with 20/20 vision and no astigmatism could turn in better groups than I did. |
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| This post has inspired me to shoot a few at 100 yards with the aimpoint, which I haven't done in years. I am happy with the results. Gun is CMMG 1/7 twist 16 inch govt profile barrel with stock 8 lbs single stage trigger. Ammo was 23 grains H 322 with 62 grain ss109 bullets, brass not trimmed and mixed brass. I was shooting 2 inch 10 shot groups with these substandard reloads. I was happy with this group as I recall the last time I shot the 2 moa aimpoint at 100 yards it was more like 4 inch's, which I attribute to the 24 grains of H 335 which apparently is ill suited to accuracy. I was using a front rest but no rear sandbag. Temp was 90 and no wind. This is my everyday load that I drill with at 50 yards. I usually can put 50 rounds in an inch if I can concentrate for that long. |
| Thank you very much. A few weeks ago, I was wavering between a T1 or a full size aimpoint. I kept getting hung up on the 4moa dot maybe being too big. I finally ordered the T1, but still wondered if I did the right thing until I read your post the other day. We shot Sat and Sun. Although my groups are not as good as yours, they are very respectable. Great informative post. |
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Originally Posted By reelserious:
This post has inspired me to shoot a few at 100 yards with the aimpoint, which I haven't done in years. I am happy with the results. Gun is CMMG 1/7 twist 16 inch govt profile barrel with stock 8 lbs single stage trigger. Ammo was 23 grains H 322 with 62 grain ss109 bullets, brass not trimmed and mixed brass. I was shooting 2 inch 10 shot groups with these substandard reloads. Which again disproves the nonsense that one can not shoot smaller than 4 MOA groups when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot. |
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This thread has actually inspired me to buy another aimpoint. I just got another ML3 2 moa dot. Its going on my most accurate AR my RRA 6.8. I will be sighting it in at 50 yards tomorrow and will try a few groups at 100 yards after the sight in. The load I shoot in this gun is very accurate so it will be interesting to see how it does. I will post results tomorrow PM.
I now use the aimpoint with Troy BUIS for its main hunting duties. Its my intention to carry the 10X scope in quick removable mount in backpack while hunting. Almost all of my shots are less than 100 yards and the Aimpoint is the way to go I feel. Real scope can be deployed in 30 seconds which isn't to bad for a hunting situation if a several hundred yard shot is needed. I was very surprised at the two inch group with ball ammo last week as that stuff is 2-3 ,moa no matter what you do.  My 6.8 ammo is sub MOA.
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I had access to a 200 yard range a couple weekends ago and stretched the legs on my LaRue DMR-16 upper, wearing a CompM3 (2moa dot). I was really mostly interested in refining and confirming my 50 yard IBZ. After getting it dialed in at 50, I put an NRA SR target at 200 yards. 7 of the 10 shot group were in the X-ring, with 3 into the 10 ring. The group measured right at 4". Had I been in a competition, I would've been very happy with my 100-7x score! And I'm pretty comfortable with my zero now too.
So, a 2moa group from a 2moa dot...I think I could've done better, but I was shooting into the shadows. 
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Well I just got back from the range, a little disappointed. Last week I shoot a 2 inch 10 shot group with crap ammo and I was very happy and pleasantly surprised with the aimpoint group at 100 yards. Today with a more accurate load and a proven accurate rifle and the group is only 1 7/8 inches for 10 shots at 100 yards. If I left out two shots it would have been 1.5 inches, maybe I was getting tired. I shot around 100 rounds before that at 50 yards and had my usual 50 shots in an inch or 1 1/4 inch after sighting in the new scope.
The rifle is a RRA 16 HBAR 1/10 twist non chrome lined mid length with a decent 2 stage trigger. 115 gr at 2500fps for the 6.8 round. No wind and used front sandbag only. I was kind of hoping for a better group but that's what it was. Oh well. The reason I went to the aimpoint (2moa) is that most of my hunting is hogs and less than 100 yards and frequently less than 40 yards. I think the nice shiny red dot on a black hog will be perfect. That is my report take it for what its worth.
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My first "combat optic" was a trijicon OEG back in the 1980's on my HK-91. I have since moved into the AR realm and I also have had a few Aimpoints (and used to be a dealer as well). The last two that I had was a 9000SC with 2X magnifier and the new Comp M4. I really liked the M4 a LOT, but for the money the 900SC is just as good as the M2 or M3 but just a bit big bigger and not as tough as the mil spec models. Anyway, I agree that one can use the dot type sights for reasonable precision shooting at medium range without too much difficulty with practice. I used to routinely shoot soda cans and clay pigeons at 200 plus yards with either the OEG or the Aimpoint. I don't remember if I kept any targets to check group sizes, but I was confident in my capabilities with those sight on my rifles. I think confidence with your tool is a big factor in how well you can use the tools.
Practice, practice, practice!!! If you have to then get a 22 LR kit for the AR and then practice with that. Also get used to shooting with both eyes open, this helps with hunting. Situational awareness. Indy |
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Originally Posted By 3678barnes:
Thank you very much. A few weeks ago, I was wavering between a T1 or a full size aimpoint. I kept getting hung up on the 4moa dot maybe being too big. I finally ordered the T1, but still wondered if I did the right thing until I read your post the other day. We shot Sat and Sun. Although my groups are not as good as yours, they are very respectable. Great informative post. T1s are great! While the distance was only 50 yards, the 10-shot group shown below was fired during zeroing, using a T1 and plain old 55 grain FMJ handloads. 
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Here’s a little demonstration of the “practical accuracy” obtainable when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot. For this exercise, I used a 14.5” chrome lined, NATO chambered carbine. Shooting was done from the prone supported position. From a distance of 50 yards, I fired ten quick shots at an FBI “Q” target. The results . . . ten “bullets in the brain pan, squish!”
The 10-shot group has an extreme spread of 1.18”, which at 50 yards is equivalent to 2.26 MOA; far smaller than the 4 MOA dot on the Aimpoint. Again, this disproves the spouted nonsense that “practical accuracy” is not possible when using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot. 
Remember, I have astigmatisms in both eyes, which make using an Aimpoint a bit of a challenge. I have no doubt, that someone with better eyesight could produce much better results. |
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There are those who claim that when using an Aimpoint sight with a four minute of angle dot, that it is not possible to shoot groups that are smaller than four minutes of angle in extreme spread. One such person has gone so far as to claim that groups shot from 100 yards using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot will be “greater than 4 inches. Usually much greater.” As we shall soon see, such statements are completely false.
Right on, agree 100%. My experience with Aimpoint and other red dots is the group is the same size as shooting with peep sights. With the AR that means about 1.5" at 100 yards with loads that group .5"-.75" with a scope. |
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PhD = BFD
Not a ballistics expert, didn't go to general dentistry school.
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Originally Posted By LtBlue425:
There are those who claim that when using an Aimpoint sight with a four minute of angle dot, that it is not possible to shoot groups that are smaller than four minutes of angle in extreme spread. One such person has gone so far as to claim that groups shot from 100 yards using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot will be “greater than 4 inches. Usually much greater.” As we shall soon see, such statements are completely false.
My experience with Aimpoint and other red dots is the group is the same size as shooting with peep sights. It depends a lot upon the sight radius of the iron sights for me; something that's thankfully not an issue with an Aimpoint. |
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I'll be the first person to state that I'll probably never be able to do this again; none the less, the 10-shot group pictured below was fired using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot at a distance of 100 yards. I used the same set-up described in my first post of this thread. This group has an extreme spread of 0.77".
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Originally Posted By Molon:
I'll be the first person to state that I'll probably never be able to do this again; none the less, the 10-shot group pictured below was fired using an Aimpoint with a 4 MOA dot at a distance of 100 yards. I used the same set-up described in my first post of this thread.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/z8qolr5j81.jpg Damn! That's impressive.
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Originally Posted By Gregory_K:
Why is your aimpoint rotated 90deg from "normal"? I'm right handed. I like to be able to keep the rifle in firing position and keep my firing hand on the pistol grip of the rifle when making adjustments to the brightness of the dot. |
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The 10-shot group pictured below was fired by our own Eric802 from a distance of 200 yards using a 2 MOA Aimpoint. The group has an extreme of 1.899 MOA. To the self-appointed experts on this website who tell us that it is physically impossible to shoot a group as small as the size of the Aimpoint dot; 1.899 < 2.
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I shot 2" groups with my 4 moa Aimpoint at 100 yards consistently the other day. |
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I had a bushmaster 14.5 HBAR with a Comp M2 that would shoot SUB MOA groups at 100 yards (three shot groups) with several different loads.
The key is to use black bulls eye targets you can center the red dot on. This same Comp 2 is now on my inline muzzloader and the gun is capable of 1 MOA groups at 100 yards and 2.5 moa groups at 200 yards (three shot groups) |
| Just got back from the range and for the hell of it shot the aimpoint 2moa at 100 yards. 30 shots in 1.75 inches. I usually shoot that gun at 50 yards and it is sighted in for 50. It shot about 2 inches high at 100. I just love the aimpoint. I have them on all my "important" guns. |
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Originally Posted By reelserious:
Just got back from the range and for the hell of it shot the aimpoint 2moa at 100 yards. 30 shots in 1.75 inches. Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I shot 2" groups with my 4 moa Aimpoint at 100 yards consistently the other day. Originally Posted By Molon:
The 10-shot group pictured below was fired by our own Eric802 from a distance of 200 yards using a 2 MOA Aimpoint. The group has an extreme of 1.899 MOA. http://www.box.net/shared/static/ripaavmpfo.jpg Yup, it's "mechanically impossible" to shoot groups that are smaller than the size of the dot. 
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Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By reelserious:
Just got back from the range and for the hell of it shot the aimpoint 2moa at 100 yards. 30 shots in 1.75 inches. Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I shot 2" groups with my 4 moa Aimpoint at 100 yards consistently the other day. Originally Posted By Molon:
The 10-shot group pictured below was fired by our own Eric802 from a distance of 200 yards using a 2 MOA Aimpoint. The group has an extreme of 1.899". http://www.box.net/shared/static/ripaavmpfo.jpg Yup, it's "mechanically impossible" to shoot groups that are smaller than the size of the dot.
erics group is less than half the size of the dot... pretty freakin good group for 200yds, no magnification |
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Originally Posted By Fields_Overseer:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By reelserious:
Just got back from the range and for the hell of it shot the aimpoint 2moa at 100 yards. 30 shots in 1.75 inches. Originally Posted By Melvinator2k0:
I shot 2" groups with my 4 moa Aimpoint at 100 yards consistently the other day. Originally Posted By Molon:
The 10-shot group pictured below was fired by our own Eric802 from a distance of 200 yards using a 2 MOA Aimpoint. The group has an extreme of 1.899". http://www.box.net/shared/static/ripaavmpfo.jpg Yup, it's "mechanically impossible" to shoot groups that are smaller than the size of the dot.
erics group is less than half the size of the dot... pretty freakin good group for 200yds, no magnification That should actually read "1.899 MOA." My bad, but still great shooting by Eric. |
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Not to beat a dead horse but yesterday for the hell of it I shot the aimpoint 2 moa at 200 yards in a 25 mph gusty wind from the 4 :00 position. 25 shots 4.5 inch's. I was very happy with this under the conditions. I was just confirming that my 50 yard zero was almost dead on at 200. I am using aimpoint guns more and more and the magnified ones less. I now just have the aimpoint on my 6.8 hunting rifle. No need for anything else for my type of hunting. Now when asked if I have one of those illuminated reticle scopes for low light shooting, I just say, ya its called an aimpoint.
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Originally Posted By Bushman_269:
Good work Molon but here is a little tip to help you shoot smaller groups. Set the dot brightness as low as you can and use the top edge of the dot for your aiming point, thus allowing you to see more of the target. By using a 6 O'clock hold like you would with iron sights your groups will be smaller. Aim small, miss small.   Someone giving Molon tips on shooting small groups.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=467880 
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Originally posted by earthworm94: (from amilitaryshortbarreledrifle.net)
Here is my target... It's from an ADS M4gery with a (purportedly) non free-float ER Shaw 16" barrel. Shot from a bench rest with IMI M855 ammo. 6 rounds fired. Optics is also an Aimpoint M2 with a 4 MOA dot. I have to stick a 3MOA black sticker there because the green square is NOT visible from 100 yds. Therefore, the dot is actually larger than the target, thus adding a bit more difficulty. Also, the Green square has an edge length of 4MOA and the penciled circle is also 4 MOA in diameter and its center is 1.5" above the center of the square because the "drop" is supposed to be +1.5" at 100yds . By my calculation the group size is about 2.3 MOA. 
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Molon,
Since you have an astigmatism, is your dot oblong in any way? If so, that doesn't seem to hurt your groups. And do you feel it is easier to get these types of groups over just the irons? The only accuracy testing I've ever done was either with magnification, or irons. It is obvious that magnification makes it easier FOR ME, than with just the irons. And I would think a red dot would also help, but just wondering what your experience of feeling is about that. Great write up as always. |
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Originally Posted By JJREA:
Since you have an astigmatism, is your dot oblong in any way? Yes and I don't see a dot, I see a blob. The best way I can describe it, is that it looks like a red amoeba. The distortion is also different with each different model of Aimpoint. The ML2s and ML3s seem to have the least distortion for my eyes. 
Originally Posted By JJREA:
And do you feel it is easier to get these types of groups over just the irons? It depends on the iron sights. Compared to standard A2 size post and aperture iron sights, I'm slightly more accurate with a RDS. More importantly, my sight picture acquisition is quicker with the RDS, especially in low light. |
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If you take a magnifying glass and look down the tube of an aimpoint you will see that the "dot" is made up of many tiny little dots. Also the little dots are not in a perfect circle. At least this is true in my aimpoints. Anyone know the theory behind this. At first I thought that the higher you turned the intensity up the more dots lit up but upon closer inspection this is not true. Perhaps if the small dots were more in a perfect circle it would appear clearer for those that have astigmatism.
As for myself some times the dot is a good round dot for me and some days it has that tail type of look to it.
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Nice Shootin! Great range report. One suggestion:
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=26 |
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Good morning Molon, all.
Wow! Read the whole post and you're one heck of an accomplished shootist. I too find great enjoyment in working up loads that shred that bullseye. Got a couple questions. Any chance of you elaborating a bit more on the 55 grain Sierra BlitzKing load that you used back in July? I know it was a while back. And if I might ask, what bench rest setup do you use? I ask because I'm looking to upgrade from my rather flimsy Caldwell Steady Rest NXT. And while I have your ear what trigger(s) do use, prefer? Also, what Krieger were you using back in July? They're a bit pricey for me right now but I can always day dream. Thanks. |
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Nice posts Molon. I've always been a proponent of the 4 MOA dot. It's easier for my getting older eyes to pick up. The "can shoot smaller groups with a 2 MOA dot" people kind of make me laugh. When my eyes were younger I believe I shot some of the best groups in my life with that 11 MOA front sight post! As with you, I too have an astigmatism. This has been a hard thing for me to accept since I've had better than 20/20 vision my entire life. Now my Aimpoints have an exclamation point shaped dot and my one Eotech has a blurry dot within a blurry circle. (Sometimes getting old sucks!) I noticed the other day, before I went out on patrol, I checked my Aimpoint's zero with my irons. When looking through the peep sight at the Aimpoint's dot, it makes it back into a dot - no more tail. Friday when I was at the range I shot two groups, one while looking through the BUIS at the dot and another using the sight as it's intended, looking at the target and putting the dot where you want the bullets to land. The BUIS / dot group was a little smaller (I didn't measure them) but both were still pretty satisfying for a combat optic! |
"...But there's also this: there are over 5,000 men in this city, who know that being a policeman is an endless, glamourless, thankless job that's gotta be done. I know it, too, and I'm damn glad to be one of them." Joe Friday
| Molon, I've found with my old-man eyes that if you use your rear BUIS peep to look through the Aimpoint the dot will appear to "round" slightly as opposed to "blobbing." Something to do with f/stop and field of view and how light travels (I dunno, it's some kinda science or magic, not sure which). |
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Originally Posted By Sinister:
Molon, I've found with my old-man eyes that if you use your rear BUIS peep to look through the Aimpoint the dot will appear to "round" slightly as opposed to "blobbing." Something to do with f/stop and field of view and how light travels (I dunno, it's some kinda science or magic, not sure which). Are you guys referring to the large aperture or the small. I"m assuming the small. And Molon, that's exactly what the dot looks like to me. I don't have one, but my brother does. Thank you for your feedback. This thread is making me want some type of reflex site. Although I've always been drawn to the TriPower. Any body using this? I like the chevron. Seems like it wouild help. Although given from your shooting, the oblong shape doesn't seem to be holding you back. But a 1.5 or 2 x acog might be a good choice too. Fast for up close, yet a crisp sight picture. I don't know. I"ve still never brought myself to buy any one of the real high quality optics, because I don't really need one. But it would be nice. I never do like the cowitness thing. It seems way to busy for my simple brain. It's like, look at irons, dot and target??? Too much information. |
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I don't like 4MOA or larger dots but once tried a cheap ATN "ultra sight" with the 4MOA dot armature @100 and it felt like I was guessing half time.
This is the 10 shot group using a stock RRA 16" mid length LE. 
The ammo used was some cheap ass "Adco" someone gave me. (look at the ammo closely  ). Well,,, at least 5 shots where loaded correctly.
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Originally Posted By JJREA: Yes the small aperture. When I normally shoot I do not use the iron sights too. It's just the Aimpoint's dot and the target. I just tried it once because the dot was "cleaned up" a bit and I wanted to see if there was a difference. Are you guys referring to the large aperture or the small. I"m assuming the small. I never do like the cowitness thing. It seems way to busy for my simple brain. It's like, look at irons, dot and target??? Too much information. |
"...But there's also this: there are over 5,000 men in this city, who know that being a policeman is an endless, glamourless, thankless job that's gotta be done. I know it, too, and I'm damn glad to be one of them." Joe Friday
Precision Shooting With an Aimpoint: Range Report (Page 2 of 3)
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