Why M-LOK? How is it better than Pic rails in, say, a forward hand guard?

Thanks, Andy

M-Lok is not better than pic.  Just different.  If you don't need rails all the way around your hand guard, you can appreciate M-Lok.

Mlock is ok, but dickmod rules them all!!

Pic rails are better for mounting devices that need to retain zero, like lasers. They also allow you to mount things around the area of the gas block, which you can’t do with a slim mlok rail. Also, if you tuck a can under a pic rail you can mount stuff around it, too. For most people though, as long as you have a top pic rail you’re good.

MLok is very strong, lighter, slimmer, and subjectively (but widely considered) more comfortable.

Fixed Picatinny rail is the only way to go for any serious use. M-LOK and Keymod is a gamer gun thing, as are many things that are finding their way into military use (like LPVOs and offset anything).

Can you expound upon this?

I like Mlok or Keymod for putting a short piece of rail where detachable (or even semi-permanent) items go. That leaves the remainder of the handguard smoother and more comfortable.  

Full quad rails are stiffer, but heavier and more snaggy / abrasive.

Different builds have different requirements.

MLOK is VERY tough. I have a Magpul VFG that’s permanently stuck on a rifle due to a stripped screw. I beat the piss out of it with a hammer and it didn’t budge at all. I thought about seeing what it took to break it off but didn’t want to potentially sacrifice the rail.

MLOK has proven itself beyond a doubt in strength for non critical attachments. It will never be as robust as Picatinny as it’s a very sloppy interface, so anything that requires holding zero is a no go.

I see it as an interim solution. In the near future someone will likely come out with a new self indexing quick detach system to replace Picatinny and MLOK.

Quad rails are heavier, will cut your hands up, but are more robust.

and cooler.

M-LOK and Keymod are not grunt proof enough for field use. Small parts that require careful attention be paid to installation and Joe is a no-go. The systems are just too fiddly. There are other reasons, but those reasons alone are all that is needed to say it's not well suited for military use. Unfortunately, M-LOK caught on and it's no longer just a passing fad. So people that have to work with that system in the military will just have to suffer through it until something better comes along. I fear the same is happening with LPVOs... Don't get me wrong, they are on to something with LPVOs, but they were closer to whatever that thing is in the form of the Elcan SpecterDR, which still never hit the nail on the head.

Offset sights will never find true acceptance outside of the gamer gun community, and even there they might only be a fad. They are just an awkward to use snag hazard.

Pic all day baby, keeps zero.

Cooler because they cut your hands up or because they give you weight in one of the worst parts of a rifle to have weight?

Inherent GRIP ZONE.

If your hands are getting cut up by pic rails it's time to go do some manual labor until they don't. Or wear gloves, or put in some rail ladders/panels/covers.



Pic rails have a place for sure but an improvement was never going to just be a passing fad, it was always coming. More improvements will come in the future as well. Hell, I like and use both pic rails and m-lok, prefer the old school RAS and surefire pic rail handguards for bombproof simple carbines as well as aesthetics. For the vast majority of things m-lok is better, period.

This thread has nothing to do with offset sights or LPVOs, either.

I'm not sure what it is about talking about Pic rails vs. M-LOK vs. Keymod that has me bringing up LVPOs and offset sights, but I do it almost every time. For some reason I see parallels with things that go from gamer guns that turn into fads, and then from there either burn out or become accepted as standard.

Threads like these just make my inner markm want to come out.

Personally I can only think of one reason M-LOK is better than fixed pic rails and that's weight on longer handguards. I'd be hard pressed to put a full length pic rail handguard on a 20" barrel set up. That's why I've never put together a true M16A4 clone with the KAC rail. But for short carbine length handguards fixed pic rail is perfect.

How is an offset a snag point but a red dot or LPVO a half inch away from it’s location isn’t? Or a side mounted light on the front of the gun?

They all indeed are. Though the only ones I ever hear anybody complaining about are extended charging handle latches. All other snag hazards usually seem to get as pass.

My thought is why add more? Especially offset snag hazards that are also awkward to use.

I never had my Badger snag on anything but it sure did beat the piss out of me.

I started running piggyback instead of offset but it was all based on durability instead. My Arisaka mount was nice but I just don’t see it surviving a good hit.

Back on topic, I do agree with the complexity of mounting MLOK. That whole self indexing thing upon re-attachment hasn’t been reliable for me due to most people not using notched T-nuts, or it wedging in the rail slot and losing index even when they do.

I do like larger tactical latches on my charging handles, but the Vltor medium latch is as large as I'm willing to go, and lately I've been liking the thought of the small latched Vltor charging handles. The Badger latch has always seemed insanely oversized to me.

BUIS to me should be something that's just blended into the gun and completely out of the way until you actually need them. Offset BUIS are just right there out in the open, and for something you will likely almost never use it makes their placement more than a bit odd. Kinda like plumbing an auxiliary toilet bowl to be in front of the refrigerator in the kitchen.

Another thing about M-LOK on top of the complications you mentioned is that unless you have fresh new Nylok screws for every time you remove and remount accessories (because technically those screws are one time use items), then you have to be in an environment where you have access to degreaser and threadlocker which needs 24 hours cure time and these screws should be installed with an inch pound torque screwdriver... That just doesn't scream field use friendly to me like a simple QD mounted pic rail accessory does.

The sad part is MLOK lends itself very well to easy QD attachment. Kinetic has a system that’s stupid simple and I’ve been meaning to try out their Scout light mount.

I’ve seen a few people make comments along the line of your last paragraph and I’ve never understood it.  What MLOK accessories do you envision people removing and reattaching in the field or in field conditions?

I’ve been an MLOK user for nearly a decade at this point and I’ve spent more than enough time carrying my guns in field conditions, training, hiking, and hunting.  Not once have I removed an accessory or needed to remove an accessory while out.

I've seen those also, it looks promising.

Literally anything and everything.

Considering the overcomplexity of the M-LOK mounting system, the way you have decided to work with it is the right way to go. However, it will be messed around with by the lowest common denominator morons with their multi tools while out in the feild... It's unavoidable. They did it with things that mounted to fixed pic rails befor M-LOK came along, but now with M-LOK the chance of them loosing small parts (screws and T-Nuts) and messing up the installation goes way up.

What items that are not on the top rail come on and off a lot?


Biggest problem I've seen:
With some screws and mounting locations, you can end up having your rail "trapped" onto the barrel behind a gas block (if you need to remove your rail for some reason).
Hitting a gas block with a screw.
Hitting a tucked can or MD.

A section of mlok rail can be added almost any where, and a QD device can be added to that section.  (I've done that with a bipod).

Pic rail advantages:
Repeatability
Simplicity
The ultimate in strength

Mlok advantages:
Size
Weight
Still plenty strong enough to mount anything but an optic, in my opinion

Those who think Mlok (or LPVOs, or offset sights for that matter) are a fad, I think you're in for disappointment.  I don't know the full original history of Mlok other than it was invented by Magpul, which isn't really a dedicated gamer company, but stuff can definitely tend to start in the gamer community because they have unlimited room to innovate free of large bureaucracies, and their standard is only whether it works or not.  Turbocharged product evolution.  If it works well enough in multiple contexts, it can/will become the norm and eventually adopted by said large bureaucracies.

Re:  Mounting Mlok stuff over gas blocks or tucked cans:  For some reason, the vast majority of Mlok accessories come with screws that are way longer than needed.  Not a problem until you are trying to mount over something.  I bought a variety pack of shorter screws, but a dremel works too.  Get or cut a screw to sit flush with the T piece, and I've never had a rail/gas block/tucked can combination where I then couldn't mount Mlok stuff wherever I wanted.  More of a pain than pic rail, yes, but it's basically a one time effort when you are setting up the gun, and then you have a lighter, slimmer gun forever.

I'm relatively slow to adopt new "standards", because I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of obsolete stuff that will be borderline unsellable.
The entire time the Mlok vs. Keymod competition was playing out, I was on the sidelines sporting quad rails.  Once the military went Mlok, I figured that was the sign that Mlok had won and had staying power.  I got my first Mlok rail to try out despite thinking it looked dumb at the time.  I saw the light, and now have converted everything from gamer guns to tactical timmy guns, and everything in between, to rails with full top pic rail/Mlok all around the rest of the way.  It's just a better system overall due to the size/weight advantages.

Until you kind of "get the hang of" Mlok, it isn't as stupid simple as pic rail, but it's pretty much a one time thing.  Learn how it works and you're good to go.
I don't take Mlok stuff off in the field either, but if I did, I'd just put it back on and estimate a torque value till I could get home, just like with pic rail item.
Just like with a pic rail item, you have to make sure it is installed and torqued correctly, or you may have a bad time.

To say I've been disappointed over some of the things that have become accepted as the standards and adopted by the military over the last 10 or so years would be an understatement.

Nothing I can really do about it, so I'm just hopeful that it all leads to better things in the future.

I've had both Quad Rail (20 inch rifle) and Mlok ( 16inch and 14.5 inch).  The Quad rail was a heavy SOB but very stable and offered a lot of real estate for whatever you needed.  Mlok on the other hand is considerably lighter and more versatile in my opinion.  More modularity, add or subtract accessories for whatever your mission requires.

Having said that, I don't feel that I sacrifice anything in reliability or strength by switching over to strictly Mlok.  I use aluminum rails instead of polymer and they do not move once installed.  My optics are not mounted forward of the receiver so I am not worried about their moving.  I do not use LAM's or thermals .

I find this interesting:

https://manticorearms.com/product/15-gen-ii-transformer-rail-for-ar-15/

I like mlok for the weight savings and in my opinion mlok handguards are a million times more comfortable to hold than a quad rail.
I can't say this is true or not, but I assume it helps the barrel cool down as well since mlok is just a bunch of holes where a quad rail would act more like a heat sink.

Pic rail is a lot more secure, easier to take stuff off and on, and I think it's cool looking.

OP's question is wrong anyway.

It isn't pic rail vs m-lok.   I think we are assuming OP means quad-rail vs m-lok.


Pretty much every major rail you buy today that is mlok (or keymod) has all pic rail across the top anyway.   Midwest Industries, BCM, Aero, Geissele, etc...


12:00 pic vs 12,3,6,9 pic.

smaller outer diameter, lighter. less hard on your hands.

Yes - with offset mounts and small sections of mlok it pretty much renders the argument pointless.

Each has it's advantages. I have ARs with both rails and MLOK tubes. On my MLOK tubes I add little chunks pic rail to mount lights, or sights. On the pic rail, the rail is already there, but the temptation to add more and make it unwieldy and heavy is there.