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Link Posted: 1/14/2021 6:13:01 AM EST
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Originally Posted By P51D_katydid:
Do any of the retailers get the urgi 14.5” uppers in that last six months? Only thing I can find is a clone correct from Charlie’s. Says it has mk12 gas block so that not correct anymore, as I recall. It looks like they are assembling it.

https://charliescustomclones.com/geissele-upper-receiver-group-usasoc-urg-i-clone-correct-pinned-flash-hider/

I have ordered a few low dollar stuff from them and had good luck. But, that has not been the case with some others as I recall.

Not really looking to build this upper myself, so just wondering what others have done.
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Geissele discontinued the "clone correct" URGIs. Most of the them had the MK12 GB anyway. If you want one that's right, you will have to build it yourself or find someone selling theirs.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 9:07:53 AM EST
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Originally Posted By SMFdarkangel:

Geissele discontinued the "clone correct" URGIs. Most of the them had the MK12 GB anyway. If you want one that's right, you will have to build it yourself or find someone selling theirs.
View Quote

Yes, but are the MK12 gas blocks really not 100% correct? Would not there be a case for it being correct for a early version?
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 9:43:27 AM EST
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Originally Posted By mstennes:

Yes, but are the MK12 gas blocks really not 100% correct? Would not there be a case for it being correct for a early version?
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Originally Posted By mstennes:
Originally Posted By SMFdarkangel:

Geissele discontinued the "clone correct" URGIs. Most of the them had the MK12 GB anyway. If you want one that's right, you will have to build it yourself or find someone selling theirs.

Yes, but are the MK12 gas blocks really not 100% correct? Would not there be a case for it being correct for a early version?




As far as I know, all of the barrel assemblies had the Mk12 gas blocks removed and DD gas blocks installed before they were sent out.

Or are you trying to say that a test/evaluation/prototype URG would have had a Mk12 gas block?
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 1:22:17 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:




As far as I know, all of the barrel assemblies had the Mk12 gas blocks removed and DD gas blocks installed before they were sent out.

Or are you trying to say that a test/evaluation/prototype URG would have had a Mk12 gas block?
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By mstennes:
Originally Posted By SMFdarkangel:

Geissele discontinued the "clone correct" URGIs. Most of the them had the MK12 GB anyway. If you want one that's right, you will have to build it yourself or find someone selling theirs.

Yes, but are the MK12 gas blocks really not 100% correct? Would not there be a case for it being correct for a early version?




As far as I know, all of the barrel assemblies had the Mk12 gas blocks removed and DD gas blocks installed before they were sent out.

Or are you trying to say that a test/evaluation/prototype URG would have had a Mk12 gas block?

Just curious as to if any went out in the field? There were also MK12’s that were milled down before the change to DD’s pinned. It seemed like there was time from the announcement to having clearance issues. Hell I can’t remember, just seems like there was some time (months) in there?
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 1:43:25 PM EST
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Originally Posted By mstennes:

Just curious as to if any went out in the field? There were also MK12’s that were milled down before the change to DD’s pinned. It seemed like there was time from the announcement to having clearance issues. Hell I can’t remember, just seems like there was some time (months) in there?
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I think you are confusing USASOC URG-Is and Geissele URG-Is. Geissele originally went with the Mk12 on their "clone correct" URG-I because that is what was to be issued. They were selling Geissele URG-Is before any USASOC URG-Is were issued. Owners reported that there was contact between the Mk12 gas block and MK16 rail on their Geissele URG-Is. Geissele remedied it by chamfering the Mk12 gas blocks . USASOC switched to the DD gas block before their kits were fielded.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 3:28:56 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:


I think you are confusing USASOC URG-Is and Geissele URG-Is. Geissele originally went with the Mk12 on their "clone correct" URG-I because that is what was to be issued. They were selling Geissele URG-Is before any USASOC URG-Is were issued. Owners reported that there was contact between the Mk12 gas block and MK16 rail on their Geissele URG-Is. Geissele remedied it by chamfering the Mk12 gas blocks . USASOC switched to the DD gas block before their kits were fielded.
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By mstennes:

Just curious as to if any went out in the field? There were also MK12’s that were milled down before the change to DD’s pinned. It seemed like there was time from the announcement to having clearance issues. Hell I can’t remember, just seems like there was some time (months) in there?


I think you are confusing USASOC URG-Is and Geissele URG-Is. Geissele originally went with the Mk12 on their "clone correct" URG-I because that is what was to be issued. They were selling Geissele URG-Is before any USASOC URG-Is were issued. Owners reported that there was contact between the Mk12 gas block and MK16 rail on their Geissele URG-Is. Geissele remedied it by chamfering the Mk12 gas blocks . USASOC switched to the DD gas block before their kits were fielded.

Gotcha, I knew I couldn’t remember it all. Thank you.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 11:41:27 AM EST
Question on the 11.5" Upper Receiver Group, Improved- 1005-01-684-1906
                       Barrel- Daniel Defense 11.5" "GOV" profile- P/N 07-077-07108
                       What is the gas port size on this barrel? Has anyone measured it?
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 3:14:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Acetomco:
Question on the 11.5" Upper Receiver Group, Improved- 1005-01-684-1906
                       Barrel- Daniel Defense 11.5" "GOV" profile- P/N 07-077-07108
                       What is the gas port size on this barrel? Has anyone measured it?
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I have not but I believe it is at least .070" which is kind of disappointing if so.
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 4:03:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/15/2021 4:19:04 PM EST by stoner63a]
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Originally Posted By mstennes:

Yes, but are the MK12 gas blocks really not 100% correct? Would not there be a case for it being correct for a early version?
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Originally Posted By mstennes:
Originally Posted By SMFdarkangel:

Geissele discontinued the "clone correct" URGIs. Most of the them had the MK12 GB anyway. If you want one that's right, you will have to build it yourself or find someone selling theirs.

Yes, but are the MK12 gas blocks really not 100% correct? Would not there be a case for it being correct for a early version?
To build the URG1 100% correctly, you must buy the Daniel Defense 14.5" mid length gas, gov't barrel that has the factory pinned DD gas block, Part #07-077-07308.     I got impatient, bought the stripped barrel from DD, and there is no way to buy the DD low pro pinned gas block separately, nor do they have a custom shop/custom order to pay extra to have their GB pinned on.    Buy Once, Cry Once.

Now I went back bought a 2nd DD Barrel 07-077-07308 with pinned gas block from Primary Arms.    PA, Optics Planet and DD seem to stock them every few weeks.  But like an earlier posted stated, run a google search of the Daniel Defense Part # 07-077-07308 you may find it in stock elsewhere.

Edit 01152021 1517Hrs CST:  Matter of fact DD appears to have some in stock once you chose the LP gas block in the drop down menu $373 + $63:
https://danieldefense.com/14-5-5-56mm-1-7-gov-profile.html
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 11:19:19 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:


I have not but I believe it is at least .070" which is kind of disappointing if so.
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Pretty sure I saw in the DD industry forum they said they’re .067 or .068.  Just can’t find it now.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 1:43:15 AM EST
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Originally Posted By india13c:


Pretty sure I saw in the DD industry forum they said they’re .067 or .068.  Just can’t find it now.
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It would be a shame if it wasn't a bit smaller.

Especially with that extra 1.2 inches of dwell time.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 9:04:04 AM EST
Yeah, they're 10.3" used to be something like .076" and their 12.5" is .073". Doesn't leave me confident that their 11.5" is .067". When I get an 11.5", I'll pin it.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 12:15:06 PM EST
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Originally Posted By india13c:


Pretty sure I saw in the DD industry forum they said they’re .067 or .068.  Just can’t find it now.
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Originally Posted By india13c:
Originally Posted By pezboytate:


I have not but I believe it is at least .070" which is kind of disappointing if so.


Pretty sure I saw in the DD industry forum they said they’re .067 or .068.  Just can’t find it now.

I saw .070 stated in the DD forum for there 11.5 barrel.
Link Posted: 1/16/2021 12:26:16 PM EST
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Originally Posted By FONTY:

I saw .070 stated in the DD forum for there 11.5 barrel.
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Oh.  I guess my memory failed me.
Link Posted: 1/19/2021 10:33:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/19/2021 10:34:20 PM EST by Tactical_Bucket]
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Originally Posted By stoner63a:
To build the URG1 100% correctly, you must buy the Daniel Defense 14.5" mid length gas, gov't barrel that has the factory pinned DD gas block, Part #07-077-07308.     I got impatient, bought the stripped barrel from DD, and there is no way to buy the DD low pro pinned gas block separately, nor do they have a custom shop/custom order to pay extra to have their GB pinned on.    Buy Once, Cry Once.

Now I went back bought a 2nd DD Barrel 07-077-07308 with pinned gas block from Primary Arms.    PA, Optics Planet and DD seem to stock them every few weeks.  But like an earlier posted stated, run a google search of the Daniel Defense Part # 07-077-07308 you may find it in stock elsewhere.

Edit 01152021 1517Hrs CST:  Matter of fact DD appears to have some in stock once you chose the LP gas block in the drop down menu $373 + $63:
https://danieldefense.com/14-5-5-56mm-1-7-gov-profile.html
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You mean like this?



Link Posted: 1/20/2021 12:37:04 AM EST
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That looks like it.

Where did you get that?
Link Posted: 1/20/2021 12:45:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:


That looks like it.

Where did you get that?
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Removed it from a DD barrel I got a few years ago, just found it tucked away while organizing my workbench.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 9:28:56 PM EST
been going back and forth about this for a few weeks. Do you guys consider the razor 1-6 in a geissele mount to be clone correct? its clear that it didnt win the contarct but there are alot of them in the wild. I am tempted to sell and get a tango6t in their alpha 4 mount ( when the mount is released) but i just dont feel there is any chance it is as good as the razor. Please note, i have a mental problem that thends to justifies worse gear and prioritizes correctness , but boy do i like the razor 1-6
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 10:22:31 PM EST
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Originally Posted By oneofus:
been going back and forth about this for a few weeks. Do you guys consider the razor 1-6 in a geissele mount to be clone correct? its clear that it didnt win the contarct but there are alot of them in the wild. I am tempted to sell and get a tango6t in their alpha 4 mount ( when the mount is released) but i just dont feel there is any chance it is as good as the razor. Please note, i have a mental problem that thends to justifies worse gear and prioritizes correctness , but boy do i like the razor 1-6
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They were on the T&E guns, but I don't think I've seen a pic of USASOC with them.
Link Posted: 1/21/2021 10:48:34 PM EST
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Originally Posted By WTFShane:


They were on the T&E guns, but I don't think I've seen a pic of USASOC with them.
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Talking about razors? There's been a bunch of photos of USASOC w/ them.
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 12:57:19 AM EST
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Originally Posted By LsuJon:
Talking about razors? There's been a bunch of photos of USASOC w/ them.
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Nice. I haven't been paying attention.
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 6:07:28 PM EST
Some VERY interesting items in this photo.

Attachment Attached File

Link Posted: 1/23/2021 6:24:08 PM EST
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Originally Posted By LsuJon:
Some VERY interesting items in this photo.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/316069/20B835A3-0EEA-4973-8DB6-2A819F21B9A2_jpe-1793598.JPG
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I cant tell, is that the KAC or the Sig LMG?
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 6:35:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By airmandaniel:



I cant tell, is that the KAC or the Sig LMG?
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KAC
Link Posted: 1/28/2021 10:22:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/28/2021 10:33:49 AM EST by the_neumanator]
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Originally Posted By SMFdarkangel:


Hopefully this doesn't come across as me being an ass but that is absolutely incorrect. I have a complete clone upper from Geissele with the factory DD LPGB, not a MK12. It was one of the last clone uppers they built, if not the very last. I ordered it several months after they "hid" the web-page to order them. They went from being in-stock, to out-of-stock after I finished checkout. They took the page down completely a short time later.
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Originally Posted By SMFdarkangel:
Originally Posted By pezboytate:


We've gone over this ad nauseum but Geissele has never sold a barrel or URG-I with the correct gas block. They went from Mk12 to modified Mk12 to the lower profile Geissele.

Originally Posted By JonnyMoses:


Pezbytate is correct. They never sold a complete upper with the correct issued dd gas block. I'm just getting around to getting an RMA for my DD Mk12 gas block to be chamfered by them, hopefully they don't mess up my 4 prong.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as me being an ass but that is absolutely incorrect. I have a complete clone upper from Geissele with the factory DD LPGB, not a MK12. It was one of the last clone uppers they built, if not the very last. I ordered it several months after they "hid" the web-page to order them. They went from being in-stock, to out-of-stock after I finished checkout. They took the page down completely a short time later.


Apologies for responding to a post that is four pages back but I haven't checked this thread in a while.  Figured everyone would want to know that Geissele was sending out complete clones with the correct gas block as @SMFdarkangel has indicated.  I ordered and received a complete clone with the correct gas block in September of 2019.  Oddly enough the specifications printed on the back of the box indicated that the gas block was a "Daniel Defense MK12 Low Profile Gas Block."  I have (hopefully) posted a picture of the specs from the box below.  Obviously if you look up "MK12 Low Profile Gas Block" on DD's website it isn't the correct block.  However, the one that I have on my complete upper from Geissele is the pinned low-profile gas block that comes with DD SKU/MPN 07-077-07308.

Link Posted: 1/28/2021 10:46:41 AM EST
I bought a Geissele URG-I with a 10.3" barrel and the receiver is a square forge with subdued T numbers.

More recently I bought a bare Geissele upper receiver and it has the same T marks, but also has a, "G" stamped in it, similar to the, "C" and, "F" marks Colt and FN sometimes use to indicate the maker on parts sold to the government or military.

I found a photo of the 3rd Special Forces Group in 2019 with the 14.5" barrel URG-I, with DDC rails, black receivers and 4 prong flash Surefire flash hiders.

The complete upper I bought from Geissele has a black receiver, but it does not have the, "G" stamped in it.
Link Posted: 1/28/2021 11:38:35 AM EST
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Originally Posted By the_neumanator:


Apologies for responding to a post that is four pages back but I haven't checked this thread in a while.  Figured everyone would want to know that Geissele was sending out complete clones with the correct gas block as @SMFdarkangel has indicated.  I ordered and received a complete clone with the correct gas block in September of 2019.  Oddly enough the specifications printed on the back of the box indicated that the gas block was a "Daniel Defense MK12 Low Profile Gas Block."  I have (hopefully) posted a picture of the specs from the box below.  Obviously if you look up "MK12 Low Profile Gas Block" on DD's website it isn't the correct block.  However, the one that I have on my complete upper from Geissele is the pinned low-profile gas block that comes with DD SKU/MPN 07-077-07308.

https://i.imgur.com/YsKyOEO.png
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Geissele did sell them with Colt uppers and BCG's and DD gas blocks at one time.

Later (2020?) they went to commercial uppers and BCG's with Geissele gas blocks.

I'll have to look on the back of my box, if it isn't covered by a shipping label.

The parts inside are still sealed in plastic.

It is the 10.3" barrel and i don't think the 4 prong flash hider is welded.

At one time (2019?), Geissele was also selling Colt bare upper receivers and BCG's separately.
Link Posted: 1/28/2021 12:33:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor:

Geissele did sell them with Colt uppers and BCG's and DD gas blocks at one time.
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Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor:
Originally Posted By the_neumanator:
Apologies for responding to a post that is four pages back but I haven't checked this thread in a while.  Figured everyone would want to know that Geissele was sending out complete clones with the correct gas block as @SMFdarkangel has indicated.  I ordered and received a complete clone with the correct gas block in September of 2019.  Oddly enough the specifications printed on the back of the box indicated that the gas block was a "Daniel Defense MK12 Low Profile Gas Block."  I have (hopefully) posted a picture of the specs from the box below.  Obviously if you look up "MK12 Low Profile Gas Block" on DD's website it isn't the correct block.  However, the one that I have on my complete upper from Geissele is the pinned low-profile gas block that comes with DD SKU/MPN 07-077-07308.

https://i.imgur.com/YsKyOEO.png

Geissele did sell them with Colt uppers and BCG's and DD gas blocks at one time.

I think the distinction that the_neumanator is making is that the original "clone correct" URG-I uppers were coming with the DD Mk12 gas block, but the correct one should be the low-profile gas block that DD only sells mounted on the clone-correct government profile mid-length 14.5" barrel. I think he's saying that although the "clone correct" URG-I upper that Geissele sold was coming with the Mk12 gas block in the beginning, they must have switched to the correct low-profile gas block towards the end of production.
Link Posted: 1/28/2021 12:36:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/28/2021 12:53:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 3ACR_Scout:

I think the distinction that the_neumanator is making is that the original "clone correct" URG-I uppers were coming with the DD Mk12 gas block, but the correct one should be the low-profile gas block that DD only sells mounted on the clone-correct government profile mid-length 14.5" barrel. I think he's saying that although the "clone correct" URG-I upper that Geissele sold was coming with the Mk12 gas block in the beginning, they must have switched to the correct low-profile gas block towards the end of production.
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Exactly.  It looks like they switched to the correct gas block in the last batch of complete URG-I uppers that they sold.  I got lucky.  They didn't feel inclined to change the spec wording on the boxes they were shipping them in, which further adds to the confusion.
Link Posted: 1/28/2021 1:04:54 PM EST
Kind of a moot point unless Geissele starts selling them again.
Link Posted: 1/28/2021 1:09:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 3ACR_Scout:

I think the distinction that the_neumanator is making is that the original "clone correct" URG-I uppers were coming with the DD Mk12 gas block, but the correct one should be the low-profile gas block that DD only sells mounted on the clone-correct government profile mid-length 14.5" barrel. I think he's saying that although the "clone correct" URG-I upper that Geissele sold was coming with the Mk12 gas block in the beginning, they must have switched to the correct low-profile gas block towards the end of production.
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Ah, yes.

I know before I bought mine, they came with Colt uppers and BCG's.

Mine came with a Geissele upper and a Geissele M4A1 BCG.

My Geissele assembled upper has an unmarked receiver, but the Geissele bare receiver I bought has a, "G" stamped in it.

I think the assembled one is unmarked, as I haven't removed the clear plastic, but I can't see a stamp through the plastic, so I don't think it has one.

I bought the 10.3" barrel, because i wanted a 4 prong flash hider that wasn't welded.

I bought an early 13.5" MK16 black rail that included a bare stainless Geissele gas block, like other Geissele rails did.

Later I bought a 10.5" MK16 DDC rail that did not include a gas block and was $25 more than the black one.
Link Posted: 1/29/2021 11:22:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/29/2021 11:39:02 AM EST by Air_Soft_Contractor]
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Originally Posted By the_neumanator:


Apologies for responding to a post that is four pages back but I haven't checked this thread in a while.  Figured everyone would want to know that Geissele was sending out complete clones with the correct gas block as @SMFdarkangel has indicated.  I ordered and received a complete clone with the correct gas block in September of 2019.  Oddly enough the specifications printed on the back of the box indicated that the gas block was a "Daniel Defense MK12 Low Profile Gas Block."  I have (hopefully) posted a picture of the specs from the box below.  Obviously if you look up "MK12 Low Profile Gas Block" on DD's website it isn't the correct block.  However, the one that I have on my complete upper from Geissele is the pinned low-profile gas block that comes with DD SKU/MPN 07-077-07308.

https://i.imgur.com/YsKyOEO.png
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I looked at my Geissele box.

There isn't anything like that on the outside, but inside is a sticker label with a check list of parts and the initials of the person that packed it.

It doesn't give the brand name or source of the parts.

Mine is the 10.3" URG-I with the 9.3" MK16 DDC rail, subdued markings Airborne charging handle, subdued T marked upper, M4A1 BCG and 4 prong Surefire SOCOM flash hider.

Geissele did advertise Colt uppers and BCG's before I bought mine.

Geissele even sold the Colt parts separately for a short time.

The URG-I doesn't have a stamp on the upper, but I bought a bare Geissele upper and it has a, "G" stamped behind the square forge mark.
Link Posted: 1/29/2021 8:46:21 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor:

At one time (2019?), Geissele was also selling Colt bare upper receivers and BCG's separately.
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I bought quite a few of both. At the end G was blowing out colt BCG's for $109, and Colt cage code uppers for $119. They were too cheap to not stock up on. Glad I did.

I could dig it out for pics, the BCG's came in the same clear tube with red plastic end caps that the Super 42 spring/buffer ships in. The 4 or 5 I grabbed were all electro stencil C marked bcgs.
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 2:03:23 PM EST
I guess this seems as good a place as any to ask. Since much of recent data shows a minimal performance increase from 11.5 to 14.5, why did they roll out a bunch of 14.5 urg-i's instead of a bunch of 11.5 urg-i's? What is the specific reason when it seems like ballistically there isn't much gain?
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 2:16:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/30/2021 2:31:43 PM EST by Air_Soft_Contractor]
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Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:
I guess this seems as good a place as any to ask. Since much of recent data shows a minimal performance increase from 11.5 to 14.5, why did they roll out a bunch of 14.5 urg-i's instead of a bunch of 11.5 urg-i's? What is the specific reason when it seems like ballistically there isn't much gain?
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It may not be just down to performance.

The farther the muzzle is from the chamber, the lower the pressure and blast at the muzzle.

You can really tell a difference between shooting an 11.5" barrel and a 14.5" barrel.

The 14.5" barrel version also has a mid-length gas system, which proved to be more reliable than a carbine length gas system.
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 2:42:12 PM EST
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Does anyone know what size taper pin the low pro gas block uses? Is it a 2/0 x 5/8" or 3/0 x 5/8"?
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 3:34:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/30/2021 3:40:46 PM EST by Vapor-Trail]
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Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor:


It may not be just down to performance.

The farther the muzzle is from the chamber, the lower the pressure and blast at the muzzle.

You can really tell a difference between shooting an 11.5" barrel and a 14.5" barrel.

The 14.5" barrel version also has a mid-length gas system, which proved to be more reliable than a carbine length gas system.
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Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor:
Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:
I guess this seems as good a place as any to ask. Since much of recent data shows a minimal performance increase from 11.5 to 14.5, why did they roll out a bunch of 14.5 urg-i's instead of a bunch of 11.5 urg-i's? What is the specific reason when it seems like ballistically there isn't much gain?


It may not be just down to performance.

The farther the muzzle is from the chamber, the lower the pressure and blast at the muzzle.

You can really tell a difference between shooting an 11.5" barrel and a 14.5" barrel.

The 14.5" barrel version also has a mid-length gas system, which proved to be more reliable than a carbine length gas system.



This,

They determined that midlength gas systems have fewer malfunctions in their testing.

crane midlength vs carbine testing


Link Posted: 1/30/2021 4:11:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:



This,

They determined that midlength gas systems have fewer malfunctions in their testing.

crane midlength vs carbine testing


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Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:
Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor:
Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:
I guess this seems as good a place as any to ask. Since much of recent data shows a minimal performance increase from 11.5 to 14.5, why did they roll out a bunch of 14.5 urg-i's instead of a bunch of 11.5 urg-i's? What is the specific reason when it seems like ballistically there isn't much gain?


It may not be just down to performance.

The farther the muzzle is from the chamber, the lower the pressure and blast at the muzzle.

You can really tell a difference between shooting an 11.5" barrel and a 14.5" barrel.

The 14.5" barrel version also has a mid-length gas system, which proved to be more reliable than a carbine length gas system.



This,

They determined that midlength gas systems have fewer malfunctions in their testing.

crane midlength vs carbine testing



So that was pretty interesting. But that's only between the gas systems for the 14.5. No mention of 11.5. I guess my question is why even give the nsn for the 11.5?
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 4:36:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/30/2021 4:36:59 PM EST by Vapor-Trail]
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Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:

So that was pretty interesting. But that's only between the gas systems for the 14.5. No mention of 11.5. I guess my question is why even give the nsn for the 11.5?
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Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:
Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:
Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor:
Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:
I guess this seems as good a place as any to ask. Since much of recent data shows a minimal performance increase from 11.5 to 14.5, why did they roll out a bunch of 14.5 urg-i's instead of a bunch of 11.5 urg-i's? What is the specific reason when it seems like ballistically there isn't much gain?


It may not be just down to performance.

The farther the muzzle is from the chamber, the lower the pressure and blast at the muzzle.

You can really tell a difference between shooting an 11.5" barrel and a 14.5" barrel.

The 14.5" barrel version also has a mid-length gas system, which proved to be more reliable than a carbine length gas system.





This,

They determined that midlength gas systems have fewer malfunctions in their testing.

crane midlength vs carbine testing



So that was pretty interesting. But that's only between the gas systems for the 14.5. No mention of 11.5. I guess my question is why even give the nsn for the 11.5?



The original USASOC URGI program was for the 14.5" only.

The shorty was added on later. Originally supposed to be 10.3"

But is now 11.5"

Supposedly units are getting the 11.5" now.

That picture above could be one. Its hard to tell, but looks like it.


Link Posted: 1/30/2021 4:37:45 PM EST
I don't know how anyone is quantifying that 11.5" is as effective as 14.5". The longer the barrel, the better the round is going to perform. Now, is an 11.5" "good enough". Perhaps. That's a completely different question though. Is a 20" necessary? I don't think so. Is a 14.5" necessary? Maybe not either.

The reason for the use of 10", 11.5", 14.5", and 10.3" barrels has always been compactness. With the URG-I, 11.5" isn't a ton shorter than 14.5". A 16" or 14.5" general purpose/DMR and 10.3" shorty would be a better selection than 14.5" and 11.5" IMO. Or if you only want one barrel length for everyone, go with 12.5".

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 4:53:38 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:
I don't know how anyone is quantifying that 11.5" is as effective as 14.5". The longer the barrel, the better the round is going to perform. Now, is an 11.5" "good enough". Perhaps. That's a completely different question though. Is a 20" necessary? I don't think so. Is a 14.5" necessary? Maybe not either.

The reason for the use of 10", 11.5", 14.5", and 10.3" barrels has always been compactness. With the URG-I, 11.5" isn't a ton shorter than 14.5". A 16" or 14.5" general purpose/DMR and 10.3" shorty would be a better selection than 14.5" and 11.5" IMO. Or if you only want one barrel length for everyone, go with 12.5".

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/138579/_20210130_163510_JPG-1803705.JPG
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There's lots of data out there that shows a minimal gain from 11.5 to 14.5, especially compared to other length changes.
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 6:50:56 PM EST
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Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:

There's lots of data out there that shows a minimal gain from 11.5 to 14.5, especially compared to other length changes.
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Define minimal. Are you saying that anything shorter than 11.5" has a sharp drop off in velocity? Are you saying that 10.3" isn't effective but 11.5" is effective? Are you saying that 11.5" is as effective as 14.5"?

M193:

Attachment Attached File


20" 3306
We'll call 14.5" 3088
We'll call 11.5" 2887
We'll call 10.3" 2790

M855

Attachment Attached File


20" 3097
We'll call 14.5" 2894
We'll call 11.5” 2629
We'll call 10.3" 2521

Looks like you are losing almost as much velocity going from 14.5" to 11.5" as you do going from 20" to 14.5".

I realize M855A1 will do a little better from a 14.5" but I don't have this kind of data for it.
Link Posted: 1/30/2021 7:00:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:


Define minimal. Are you saying that anything shorter than 11.5" has a sharp drop off in velocity? Are you saying that 10.3" isn't effective but 11.5" is effective? Are you saying that 11.5" is as effective as 14.5"?

M193:

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/138579/Screenshot_20210130-183404_png-1803906.JPG

20" 3306
We'll call 14.5" 3088
We'll call 11.5" 2887
We'll call 10.3" 2790

M855

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/138579/Screenshot_20210130-183350_png-1803907.JPG

20" 3097
We'll call 14.5" 2894
We'll call 11.5” 2629
We'll call 10.3" 2521

Looks like you are losing almost as much velocity going from 14.5" to 11.5" as you do going from 20" to 14.5".

I realize M855A1 will do a little better from a 14.5" but I don't have this kind of data for it.
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:

There's lots of data out there that shows a minimal gain from 11.5 to 14.5, especially compared to other length changes.


Define minimal. Are you saying that anything shorter than 11.5" has a sharp drop off in velocity? Are you saying that 10.3" isn't effective but 11.5" is effective? Are you saying that 11.5" is as effective as 14.5"?

M193:

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/138579/Screenshot_20210130-183404_png-1803906.JPG

20" 3306
We'll call 14.5" 3088
We'll call 11.5" 2887
We'll call 10.3" 2790

M855

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/138579/Screenshot_20210130-183350_png-1803907.JPG

20" 3097
We'll call 14.5" 2894
We'll call 11.5” 2629
We'll call 10.3" 2521

Looks like you are losing almost as much velocity going from 14.5" to 11.5" as you do going from 20" to 14.5".

I realize M855A1 will do a little better from a 14.5" but I don't have this kind of data for it.

Im not saying or implying anything. There's data compiled and I believe some of it is in the ammo thread here. It shows a big jump from 10.3 to 11.5, then barely any increase from 11.5 to 14.5, I think it jumped up again at 16 and climbed to 20 but I can't remember. Again I'm not saying any barrel length is better than another, just going off of several sources of testing that show a smaller increase from 11.5 to 14.5 than any other change in length.
Link Posted: 2/1/2021 2:16:04 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:



The original USASOC URGI program was for the 14.5" only.

The shorty was added on later. Originally supposed to be 10.3"

But is now 11.5"

Supposedly units are getting the 11.5" now.

That picture above could be one. Its hard to tell, but looks like it.


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Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:
Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:
Originally Posted By Vapor-Trail:
Originally Posted By Air_Soft_Contractor:
Originally Posted By UndrGrndPrdcts:
I guess this seems as good a place as any to ask. Since much of recent data shows a minimal performance increase from 11.5 to 14.5, why did they roll out a bunch of 14.5 urg-i's instead of a bunch of 11.5 urg-i's? What is the specific reason when it seems like ballistically there isn't much gain?


It may not be just down to performance.

The farther the muzzle is from the chamber, the lower the pressure and blast at the muzzle.

You can really tell a difference between shooting an 11.5" barrel and a 14.5" barrel.

The 14.5" barrel version also has a mid-length gas system, which proved to be more reliable than a carbine length gas system.





This,

They determined that midlength gas systems have fewer malfunctions in their testing.

crane midlength vs carbine testing



So that was pretty interesting. But that's only between the gas systems for the 14.5. No mention of 11.5. I guess my question is why even give the nsn for the 11.5?



The original USASOC URGI program was for the 14.5" only.

The shorty was added on later. Originally supposed to be 10.3"

But is now 11.5"

Supposedly units are getting the 11.5" now.

That picture above could be one. Its hard to tell, but looks like it.



So does anybody have any additional info on what usasoc deems the specific purpose for the 11.5 is? Or why there are the two lengths? It also seems like 95% of the pics in here with the 14.5 are unsuppressed, and the older 10.3s beside them are obviously suppressed.
Link Posted: 2/1/2021 5:32:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/1/2021 6:34:47 PM EST
Guys w/ block IIs, how do y'all like the URG-I compared to blockIIs? Thinking about converting mine over.
Link Posted: 2/1/2021 7:04:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By LsuJon:
Guys w/ block IIs, how do y'all like the URG-I compared to blockIIs? Thinking about converting mine over.
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Weight is slightly less if both have a M4/Gov barrel. Diameter of handguard is slightly less. I'm old school and like M1913 and weapon mounted M203s so I'm not getting rid of my RIS IIs.

Keep the Block II and build an URG-I, obviously.
Link Posted: 2/1/2021 7:41:14 PM EST
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:


Weight is slightly less if both have a M4/Gov barrel. Diameter of handguard is slightly less. I'm old school and like M1913 and weapon mounted M203s so I'm not getting rid of my RIS IIs.

Keep the Block II and build an URG-I, obviously.
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Originally Posted By pezboytate:
Originally Posted By LsuJon:
Guys w/ block IIs, how do y'all like the URG-I compared to blockIIs? Thinking about converting mine over.


Weight is slightly less if both have a M4/Gov barrel. Diameter of handguard is slightly less. I'm old school and like M1913 and weapon mounted M203s so I'm not getting rid of my RIS IIs.

Keep the Block II and build an URG-I, obviously.



Get them all, keep them all.

I still love my cheese graters, RAS and RIS
Link Posted: 2/1/2021 7:52:59 PM EST
I mean obviously get both, just don't have the means to fully kit out both uppers at the moment lol. The goal is to have both eventually (including 11.5 if that ever fully materializes) but wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze RN.
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