Nitride vs Phosphate (PSA) - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Nitride vs Phosphate (PSA)

Posted: 10/26/2018 9:14:31 AM EDT

So I'm wanting to build a pistol, PSA lists 10.5 inch uppers one Nitride and one Phosphate what is the difference.

I'm usually a chrome lined hammer forged guy, but I want to keep this cheap.

Posted: 10/20/2018 3:24:43 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
So I'm wanting to build a pistol, PSA lists 10.5 inch uppers one Nitride and one Phosphate what is the difference.

View Quote

Um.....the difference is that one is phosphate the other is nitride.

Seriously that's really what the difference is.

If the phosphate barrel ISN'T chrome-lined, go nitride.

Posted: 10/20/2018 3:25:34 PM EDT

[#2]

I have both from them. Both are reliable and accurate. The nitride will resist corrosion better and likely last for more rounds.

Posted: 10/20/2018 3:31:59 PM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:
I have both from them. Both are reliable and accurate. The nitride will resist corrosion better and likely last for more rounds.

View Quote

Thanks, I'll probably go with the nitride then

How do you feel about the PSA prepium full auto BGG? I usually do BCM, but like I said I'm trying to keep the cost down on this.

Posted: 10/20/2018 3:34:48 PM EDT

[#4]

Psa premium are fine bcg. I have like 5.

Posted: 10/20/2018 4:08:34 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:

Thanks, I'll probably go with the nitride then

How do you feel about the PSA prepium full auto BGG? I usually do BCM, but like I said I'm trying to keep the cost down on this.

View Quote

They're toolcraft, they're GTG.

Posted: 10/20/2018 4:20:50 PM EDT

[#6]

Nitride is much better.
Although they are similar in price Nitride is much more corrosion resistant. Nitride also creates a hardened surface to the entire barrel inside and out. Having the bore Nitrided will make it last for much longer.
Nitride is not a time consuming or expensive finish to accomplish, thus the cost of the finished barrel isn't jacked up. It may end up being the most lasting and durable barrel you have.
The premium PSA carriers are actually Toolcraft carriers and they are excellent also.

Posted: 10/20/2018 4:47:00 PM EDT

[#7]

I own several PSA BCG's and they have all held up just fine with no problems, would not hesitate to buy more.

Posted: 10/20/2018 4:51:51 PM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:

They're toolcraft, they're GTG.

View Quote

No way to know this.

PSA themselves will no longer confirm/deny that Premium carriers are TC sourced.

That being said, the Premier bcgs are excellent IME.

Posted: 10/20/2018 4:52:45 PM EDT

[#9]

Double tap.

Posted: 10/20/2018 5:58:42 PM EDT

[#10]

in order for me when talking about durability.

Chrome lined
Nitride
Stainless
parked/phosphate

Posted: 10/20/2018 11:50:09 PM EDT

[#11]

Quote History

Quoted:

Thanks, I'll probably go with the nitride then

How do you feel about the PSA prepium full auto BGG? I usually do BCM, but like I said I'm trying to keep the cost down on this.

View Quote

I like and own BCM products but I wouldn't pay what they want for a BCG.

PSA premium has been fine but I just buy Toolcraft from WCArmory, RTB or Armorally these days. If the PSA bolt comes with the upper I would run it with no worries.

Attached File

This is a 16" phosphate mid that came with a BCG and CH and it works just fine. Got about $340 in this gun.

The barrel may not last as long but this is a low volume gun and if you put 10k on it to burn it up you got your money worth IMO.

The nitride looks weird with the phosphate FSB IMO so if you're going nitride get a FF rail version like this one.

Attached File

This is an 11.5 phosphate that works just fine as well.

Attached File

Posted: 10/21/2018 6:17:27 AM EDT

[#12]

I used a Nitrite BCG in my last build, after a few thousand rounds looks like new. I have a 10 year old phosphate BCG that I NP3’d for 3Gun, still looks good after thousands of rounds a year for 10 years.

Posted: 10/21/2018 7:40:33 AM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
No way to know this.

PSA themselves will no longer confirm/deny that Premium carriers are TC sourced.

That being said, the Premier bcgs are excellent IME.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

They're toolcraft, they're GTG.

No way to know this.

PSA themselves will no longer confirm/deny that Premium carriers are TC sourced.

That being said, the Premier bcgs are excellent IME.

A couple weeks ago PSA had Toolcraft as the manufacture in the description of a bcg.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=toolcraft

Posted: 10/21/2018 8:13:30 AM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:

This is an 11.5 phosphate that works just fine as well.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/425939/20180909_222322_jpg-711947.JPG

View Quote

That's almost exactly what I'm going for on this build, to the point that I would really prefer the 11.5 so that I could fit an IR laser under the barrel. (but they never seem to be in stock)

Posted: 10/21/2018 8:37:18 AM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:

Thanks, I'll probably go with the nitride then

How do you feel about the PSA prepium full auto BGG? I usually do BCM, but like I said I'm trying to keep the cost down on this.

View Quote

I run their Nickel Boron BCGs except for the one that came with the OG green build kit for the #ONEMORE lower.
Coat them in mobil1 or Rotella T6 before you shoot, carbon wipes right off without the use of solvents.

Posted: 10/21/2018 8:37:52 AM EDT

[#16]

Does the ones you're looking that list phosphate also list it as "chrome lining: no"??

Pretty sure a lot of their specials either list nitride or non lined phosphate. If so, nitride for the win. IMHO if your not shooting full auto or mag dumping then nitride is a no brainier. Handling extremely high heat is pretty much the only thing where CL shines when comparing the two for longevity/durability. I have both.

Posted: 10/21/2018 9:27:53 AM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:
A couple weeks ago PSA had Toolcraft as the manufacture in the description of a bcg.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=toolcraft

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

They're toolcraft, they're GTG.

No way to know this.

PSA themselves will no longer confirm/deny that Premium carriers are TC sourced.

That being said, the Premier bcgs are excellent IME.

A couple weeks ago PSA had Toolcraft as the manufacture in the description of a bcg.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=toolcraft

Those are TC branded, not PSA. From the PSA Industry Forum rep:

Quoted:

They came from TC exactly as you see them.

Thank you,

Josiah

Posted: 10/21/2018 9:34:05 AM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
in order for me when talking about durability.

Chrome lined
Nitride
Stainless
parked/phosphate

View Quote

For durability, I would rank them
Nitride
Chrome lined
Parkerized
Stainless

Pretty much hardest to softest.

Posted: 10/21/2018 2:30:18 PM EDT

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:
For durability, I would rank them
Nitride
Chrome lined
Parkerized
Stainless

Pretty much hardest to softest.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
in order for me when talking about durability.

Chrome lined
Nitride
Stainless
parked/phosphate

For durability, I would rank them
Nitride
Chrome lined
Parkerized
Stainless

Pretty much hardest to softest.

Nitride is more corrosion resistant, more resistant to bore and throat wear and also more scratch and dent resistant so Nitride wins the #1 spot for durability.
Second would be Parked/Chrome lined.
Third and forth could go either way. Stainless is more corrosion resistant than a bare bore but 4150 will wear slower than Stainless.

We also have Nitrided stainless barrels now, I would rank them above a plain parked barrel or plain stainless barrel.

Posted: 10/21/2018 6:08:37 PM EDT

[#20]

99% sure Op is talking about an unlined phosphate bbl verses Nitride bbl.

In that case, go Nitride for longevity and durability.

Posted: 10/22/2018 11:43:09 AM EDT

[#21]

This won't directly address the OP's question, but he mentioned being a chrome-lined guy ...

I've had a lot of different rifles over the years, and found nitride and bare (no chrome lined) chambers can lead to poor extraction ... especially with steel case ammo.

I've had a total of ONE stuck Wolf Classic (steel) case in a chrome lined bore. This happened last week with a Colt 11.5" 6933 upper on a pistol lower. I'm new to pistol ARs, but wonder if the short barrel / dwell time / etc had anything to do with this.

I have NEVER had a stuck steel case in a 14.5 (with P/W brake), 16, 18 or 20 inch barrel if the chamber was chromed. I've been shooting Wolf Polymer steel case since it hit the market, and I go through periods where I shoot a lot of ammo so we're talking about THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of rounds of Wolf steel case fired. For example, I've fired over 1,500rds of Wolf Classic in the past two weeks alone.

I've had LOTS of stuck steel cases in nitrided chambers. This has occurred with all sorts of different rifles: several different Sig556, Sig556 Classic, LWRC M6A1, LWRC M6SL, several different LWRC M6IC Enhanced, Saint Pistol, Bushmaster ACR, etc.

As a result, I try to avoid nitride when possible. I understand tight chambers, etc can have an impact on extraction. However, the multitude of chrome chambered rifles I've fired countless Wolf steel case through partially negates this argument. I'm sure some of those rifles had tight chambers too.

Having said all of this ... PSA's dirt cheap nitride uppers are appealing because they're more corrosion resistant than a bare bore / chamber (which I would NEVER buy). However, based upon my experiences with failures to extract I wouldn't rely on a nitride chambered gun. Fine for range use where a stuck case is only a hassle. Not acceptable for home defense / whatever.

Posted: 10/22/2018 11:49:06 AM EDT

[#22]

Took these pictures at the range on 10/11/18:

That's a Springfield Saint pistol. Nitride.

Posted: 10/22/2018 11:50:07 AM EDT

[#23]

You have to look hard to see the case head in the chamber, but I wanted to capture the Saint on the BC too. Not the best picture.

Posted: 10/23/2018 8:56:14 PM EDT

[#24]

I have two of the $259 kits I bought, both with the phosphate barrel. I would have preferred the nitride barrels, but both time I went to order they were OOS. Back in stock a day or so later of course

The only one I have put together and shot is the one with Grey furniture and it shoots great. 600 rounds plus, no jams and seems to be about as accurate as my 16" carbines, at least after a few range trips and cleanings.

Just picked up an Anderson lower for the black kit and will put it together ASAP. Hope it shoots as well as the first one.

Posted: 10/24/2018 2:14:42 PM EDT

[#25]

Barrel steel also matters in OPs debate.

Many inexpensive barrels are 4140 steel rather than 4150 CMV. Check on that. 4150 CMV steel is far more resistant to the blowtorch effect of burning gasses in the throat and first few inches of the bore. For casual shooting at low cycle rate it may not matter, but if you are going to use high rate of fire, the better steel will be better.

You can nitride a 4140 barrel and it will hold up very well, often almost as long as a 4150 barrel that is chrome lined.

But if the nitride barrel is 4150 and the phosphate barrel is 4140, then there is no debate at all, go with the 4150 steel that is also nitride treated. You get a more heat resistant steel and have the bonus of nitride treatment for hardness and corrosion resistance.

Posted: 10/24/2018 5:11:20 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
Barrel steel also matters in OPs debate.

Many inexpensive barrels are 4140 steel rather than 4150 CMV. Check on that. 4150 CMV steel is far more resistant to the blowtorch effect of burning gasses in the throat and first few inches of the bore. For casual shooting at low cycle rate it may not matter, but if you are going to use high rate of fire, the better steel will be better.

You can nitride a 4140 barrel and it will hold up very well, often almost as long as a 4150 barrel that is chrome lined.

But if the nitride barrel is 4150 and the phosphate barrel is 4140, then there is no debate at all, go with the 4150 steel that is also nitride treated. You get a more heat resistant steel and have the bonus of nitride treatment for hardness and corrosion resistance.

View Quote

Does anyone manufacture new barrels from 4140 anymore? Seems like 4150 has become standard for AR barrels now. I know 4140 was more common years ago so some old/new stock is probably still around?
From the research I have done, the difference in 4140 and 4150 is irrelevant in a semi auto weapon, especially if chrome lined or Nitrided. The difference is in the temperature the steel becomes malleable. 4140 softens at a bit lower temperature and is more prone to warp and wear if temperatures get hot enough. We are talking around 1700 degrees before the two differ much. It takes close to 1000 rounds of continuous full auto to reach such a temperature, IIRC. If a 4140 and 4150 barrel were both Nitrided the lifespan should be the same in a semi auto, assuming the Nitride reaches the same hardness and thickness in both barrels.
In a Nitride barrel that will never see 1000 rounds of sustained full auto the base steel is not important. No amount of semi auto fire can get a barrel hot enough to make a difference.
I believe 416 Stainless achieves a hardness that is higher than 4150 when Nitrided. As far as normal bore wear and erosion, it would stand to reason that a Nitrided Stainless barrel should actually be the longest lasting barrel available now. If you intended to run your Nitride Stainless barrel in sustained full auto it may turn into a noodle though.
The difference in the base steel is not in it's ability to withstand wear, it's in it's ability to withstand heat without warping.

Posted: 10/24/2018 5:24:01 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:

Does anyone manufacture new barrels from 4140 anymore?

View Quote

Google says yes. None that I'd buy though.

Posted: 10/24/2018 9:54:39 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
So I'm wanting to build a pistol, PSA lists 10.5 inch uppers one Nitride and one Phosphate what is the difference.

I'm usually a chrome lined hammer forged guy, but I want to keep this cheap.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x370/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/1/516447140.jpg

View Quote

@Mrgunsngear posted a YouTube video yesterday where he did a review on a PSA 10.5" pistol kit with a nitrite barrel. He shot five shot groups with 3 different kinds of ammo at 100 yards. The groups were between 1 1/4 - 1 1/2. That's pretty impressive. Sounds like the nitrite barrel is the way to go.

https://youtu.be/YRXhh6qiZII

Posted: 10/24/2018 11:39:01 PM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:

@Mrgunsngear posted a YouTube video yesterday where he did a review on a PSA 10.5" pistol kit with a nitrite barrel. He shot five shot groups with 3 different kinds of ammo at 100 yards. The groups were between 1 1/4 - 1 1/2. That's pretty impressive. Sounds like the nitrite barrel is the way to go.

https://youtu.be/YRXhh6qiZII

View Quote

Thanks for sharing.

Palmetto State Armory 10.5'' Nitride 5.56 AR-15 Pistol: The Best Truck Gun?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRXhh6qiZII

Posted: 10/25/2018 5:51:54 AM EDT

[#30]

I have one of those kits (thanks "daily ~~wallet raping~~ deals"). Works great. Shoots at least minute of beer can at 50 yards kneeling with a backup rear sight. That's plenty for what I expect of it, but it probably shoots just as good as any other rack-grade off the bench. The a2 FH it came with does NOT fit into my griffin m4sd, but no big deal, it's a cheapo.

Above posters are correct on the nitride/phosphate.

For a truck gun, it wouldn't really matter. For a blaster, you'll get your money's worth either way. I still buy nitride if at all possible so I can get the best service life possible.

Posted: 10/26/2018 9:14:31 AM EDT

[#31]

Topic Moved

Posted: 10/26/2018 8:23:58 PM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
Thanks for sharing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRXhh6qiZII

View Quote

I had the nitride version of the PSA 10.5" before I sold it to snag a killer deal on the CHF chrome lined version of the same upper. It was a good shooter and shot consistent groups at 100 yards with IMI XM193 and M855. I was impressed. The only real issue I had was that the front sight was canted to the right and I smacked it with a mallet a few times and that made it better, but not perfect. It wasn't an issue, but the upper receiver had the strange "O" forge mark and it was one I had not seen before. My understanding is that it was possibly forged by a company called "Performance Forge"?

Posted: 11/24/2018 9:49:59 PM EDT

[#33]

Got one of the Black Friday deals, 10.5 nitride with a KAC shockwave and MOE furniture.

Posted: 11/24/2018 10:03:00 PM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
A couple weeks ago PSA had Toolcraft as the manufacture in the description of a bcg.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=toolcraft

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:They're toolcraft, they're GTG.

No way to know this.

PSA themselves will no longer confirm/deny that Premium carriers are TC sourced.

That being said, the Premier bcgs are excellent IME.

A couple weeks ago PSA had Toolcraft as the manufacture in the description of a bcg.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=toolcraft

Those are TC sourced and branded, not PSA products.

Posted: 11/29/2018 2:08:11 AM EDT

[#35]

I have a PSA 10.5" nitride upper on an AR pistol (Anderson lower, PSA pistol built kit) with no complaints, it has eaten everything I've fed it thus far. Have both CL and Nitride barrels, all function as intended and are accurate. CL barrels are FN and Colt, Nitride are BA and PSA (the 10.5", probably made by BA but not certain).

Posted: 12/3/2018 10:54:15 PM EDT

[#36]

In a PSA build, I’d choose nitride over plain (non chrome lined) parkerized barrel.

Not sure if an unlined PSA parked barrel will have an accuracy advantage over nitride but I’d take the durability. Especially if you plan to shoot a lot of ammo with bi-metal bullets.

Posted: 12/3/2018 11:05:25 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:
In a PSA build, I'd choose nitride over plain (non chrome lined) parkerized barrel.

Not sure if an unlined PSA parked barrel will have an accuracy advantage over nitride but I'd take the durability. Especially if you plan to shoot a lot of ammo with bi-metal bullets.

View Quote

I went with the nitride, got it together and have about 400 rounds through it, gtg so far.

Posted: 12/6/2018 11:51:58 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:
I went with the nitride, got it together and have about 400 rounds through it, gtg so far.

View Quote

Good choice. It will last much longer than the unlined. Both barrels are 4150V. From my understanding and research, the only time CL excells over a proper Melonite treated bbl is enduring high heat and sustained fire. Hell, I've got both CL and Melonite/nitride bbls and love both.

I have a 4140 $220 YHM-47-TF barrel that has 14k on it and still can shoot 1 moa using factory MKD223 ammo.

Enjoy the new shooter. Eta. I just picked up two new 10.5 4150V nitride PSA pistols a few months ago, great shooters and easy to clean.