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Posted: 1/20/2024 10:49:01 PM EDT
[#1]
@Molon for his experience, and wisdom.
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Posted: 1/20/2024 11:11:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Found this thread in my favs:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Return-of-the-M193-Clones/5-2515258/ |
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Posted: 1/20/2024 11:24:11 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Found this thread in my favs: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Return-of-the-M193-Clones/5-2515258/ I have that saved, as well, and that’s where I got the velocity info for PPU M193. However, jacket thickness is not discussed. On a side note, just came across Winchester ammo labeled differently and priced differently, as well (not by much, though). Funny how it’s all the same ammo but for whatever reason there are small pricing/labelling differences.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 1/21/2024 8:05:26 AM EDT
[#4]
Keep in mind Winchester's velocity claim is probably in an 24" barrel. Unless someone has other info?
I haven't bought any of the Winchester/Lake City production, but my past experiences with Winchester's white box commercial ammo is "accuracy is not a consideration at all". It goes bang, but expect lousy grouping. |
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Posted: 1/21/2024 10:58:38 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Keep in mind Winchester's velocity claim is probably in an 24" barrel. Unless someone has other info? I haven't bought any of the Winchester/Lake City production, but my past experiences with Winchester's white box commercial ammo is "accuracy is not a consideration at all". It goes bang, but expect lousy grouping. |
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Posted: 1/21/2024 1:13:41 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: This brings me to PPU M193, as Molon’s testing shows that the velocity is on point, which is an important factor for me. The other thing I’m looking at is if PPU has the same jacket thickness as Fed XM193 and Winchester M193? @Molon When the weather gets warmer I'll section one of the PPU bullets. The US mil-specs for the M193 bullet that I’ve seen call for a jacket thickness of 0.021” with a tolerance of minus 0.002”. The jacket material calls for gilding metal with a 90/10 ratio of copper to zinc with a weight of 17.5 grains with a tolerance of minus 1.0 grain. The lead core spec calls for an alloy of 99.25% lead and 0.75% antimony with a weight of 38.5 grains and a tolerance of minus 1.0 grain. ...... |
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Posted: 1/21/2024 1:14:05 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On a side note, just came across Winchester ammo labeled differently and priced differently, as well (not by much, though). Funny how it’s all the same ammo but for whatever reason there are small pricing/labelling differences. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/22392/IMG_5362_jpeg-3101779.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/22392/IMG_5361_jpeg-3101781.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/22392/IMG_5360_jpeg-3101782.JPG Some of those are 223 Remington loads. .... |
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Posted: 1/21/2024 1:17:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Keep in mind Winchester's velocity claim is probably in an 24" barrel. Unless someone has other info? Quote HistoryQuoted: Keep in mind Winchester's velocity claim is probably in an 24" barrel. Unless someone has other info?  Attached FileQuoted: I haven't bought any of the Winchester/Lake City production, but my past experiences with Winchester's white box commercial ammo is "accuracy is not a consideration at all". It goes bang, but expect lousy grouping. Winchester M193 Three 10-shot groups of the Winchester M193 ammunition fired consecutively from the Lothar Walther barreled AR-15 at a distance of 100 yards had the following extreme spreads: 2.21” 2.65” 2.09” for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 2.32”. I over-layed the three 10-shot groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius of the 30-shot composite group was 0.72”. The smallest 10-shot group . . .  Attached FileThe 30-shot composite group . . .  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/21/2024 9:21:15 PM EDT
[#9]
@Molon
Thank you for all that you do for we ammo nerds! Your input and time spent creating data is always very, very, appreciated. |
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Posted: 1/22/2024 12:40:01 AM EDT
[#10]
@Molon
Thanks for the response. And,for now, looks like Ill be picking up the case of the 5.56 Winchester. |
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Posted: 1/24/2024 8:01:17 PM EDT
[#11]
pmc xtac, ppu, and magtech m193, and IMI have all been great for me. Sellier and Bellot is to be avoided as it has a steel jacket and does not frag.
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Posted: 1/27/2024 3:23:55 AM EDT
[#12]
Any of the clones known to frag above 2,800 fps like the real deal?
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Posted: 1/31/2024 8:08:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: pmc xtac, ppu, and magtech m193, and IMI have all been great for me. Sellier and Bellot is to be avoided as it has a steel jacket and does not frag. Aren't PMC velocities low? |
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Posted: 2/3/2024 9:52:42 AM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 2/3/2024 12:49:44 PM EDT
[#15]
BUFFMAN Chrono’d Winchester M193 a few months back. And he was getting 3,148 from a 16” barrel. I would say that’s spec enough.
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Posted: 2/4/2024 12:58:49 AM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 2/4/2024 3:47:51 PM EDT
[#17]
I can’t understand why Lake City is running lots of M193 anymore. 20+ years ago the discussions would talk about guard units and friendly nations with A1s which was flimsy even back then. 20yrs of GWOT later I don’t understand why LC is dedicating machine time to it.
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Posted: 2/4/2024 7:56:51 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can’t understand why Lake City is running lots of M193 anymore. 20+ years ago the discussions would talk about guard units and friendly nations with A1s which was flimsy even back then. 20yrs of GWOT later I don’t understand why LC is dedicating machine time to it. I think "M193" is the generic term for the general load using a 55gr FMJ at 556 pressure. For it to be actual M193, it would have to go through all sorts of mil. spec. process like batch/lot testing etc. (Molon has detailed this many times). Although, with Win. or Fed made at Lake City, it is probably 99% M193 spec without all the gov't required testing. But who really knows. I think that B&T sale on Federal is about the best deal currently. SGAmmo has some Win. M193 made at Lake City for $399, for 800 rounds with free shipping but it comes in just a hair more per round than the Federal. I guess its a question of which you prefer. I have been impressed with recent Win ammo made at LC being more accurate than expected at around 2.5MOA but no primer/neck sealant. |
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Posted: 2/5/2024 3:13:39 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryEnded up buying 2 500 rd cases. Came out to $485.60. Would have been $17.10 less had I not opted for the package protection in case it gets lost/stolen. |
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Posted: 2/5/2024 3:15:43 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: BUFFMAN Chrono’d Winchester M193 a few months back. And he was getting 3,148 from a 16” barrel. I would say that’s spec enough. Niiiiice! |
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Posted: 2/5/2024 8:49:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ended up buying 2 500 rd cases. Came out to $485.60. Would have been $17.10 less had I not opted for the package protection in case it gets lost/stolen. As many 2A related packages get stolen now a days the package protection is worth it! That way you're not SOL if it gets 5 fingered. |
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Posted: 2/7/2024 8:08:15 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As many 2A related packages get stolen now a days the package protection is worth it! That way you're not SOL if it gets 5 fingered. I ordered a couple of cases of Federal XM193 from that B&T sale. I didnt opt for the expensive "package protection" and it arrived just fine and in about 3 days (they are in Tampa so pretty close to me). But maybe I'm lucky. Anyway, that Fed. XM193 ammo looks good. I was surprised that it is with LC brass with "22" headstamps and NATO cross. Also has the usual SCAMP machine dots and the new (to me) primer pocket crimp with the 4 dents instead of the usual circular crimp. Also looks to have primers sealed. I will shoot it soon and hopefully it holds the 2.5MOA that I'm hoping for. |
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Posted: 2/7/2024 9:14:00 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I ordered a couple of cases of Federal XM193 from that B&T sale. I didnt opt for the expensive "package protection" and it arrived just fine and in about 3 days (they are in Tampa so pretty close to me). But maybe I'm lucky. Anyway, that Fed. XM193 ammo looks good. I was surprised that it is with LC brass with "22" headstamps and NATO cross. Also has the usual SCAMP machine dots and the new (to me) primer pocket crimp with the 4 dents instead of the usual circular crimp. Also looks to have primers sealed. I will shoot it soon and hopefully it holds the 2.5MOA that I'm hoping for. Fed XM193 has always shot decently out of my Colt uppers. Looking forward to getting this case. |
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Posted: 2/7/2024 11:40:26 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fed XM193 has always shot decently out of my Colt uppers. Looking forward to getting this case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I ordered a couple of cases of Federal XM193 from that B&T sale. I didnt opt for the expensive "package protection" and it arrived just fine and in about 3 days (they are in Tampa so pretty close to me). But maybe I'm lucky. Anyway, that Fed. XM193 ammo looks good. I was surprised that it is with LC brass with "22" headstamps and NATO cross. Also has the usual SCAMP machine dots and the new (to me) primer pocket crimp with the 4 dents instead of the usual circular crimp. Also looks to have primers sealed. I will shoot it soon and hopefully it holds the 2.5MOA that I'm hoping for. Fed XM193 has always shot decently out of my Colt uppers. Looking forward to getting this case. Still available and a steal right now |
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Posted: 2/8/2024 7:15:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I ordered a couple of cases of Federal XM193 from that B&T sale. I didnt opt for the expensive "package protection" and it arrived just fine and in about 3 days (they are in Tampa so pretty close to me). But maybe I'm lucky. Anyway, that Fed. XM193 ammo looks good. I was surprised that it is with LC brass with "22" headstamps and NATO cross. Also has the usual SCAMP machine dots and the new (to me) primer pocket crimp with the 4 dents instead of the usual circular crimp. Also looks to have primers sealed. I will shoot it soon and hopefully it holds the 2.5MOA that I'm hoping for. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As many 2A related packages get stolen now a days the package protection is worth it! That way you're not SOL if it gets 5 fingered. I ordered a couple of cases of Federal XM193 from that B&T sale. I didnt opt for the expensive "package protection" and it arrived just fine and in about 3 days (they are in Tampa so pretty close to me). But maybe I'm lucky. Anyway, that Fed. XM193 ammo looks good. I was surprised that it is with LC brass with "22" headstamps and NATO cross. Also has the usual SCAMP machine dots and the new (to me) primer pocket crimp with the 4 dents instead of the usual circular crimp. Also looks to have primers sealed. I will shoot it soon and hopefully it holds the 2.5MOA that I'm hoping for. I've got a question. I was under the impression that Federal lost the LC contract and that Winchester took over back in 2020. Why would there be LC22 cases in Federal packaging, if Federal stopped running LC 2 years before the case was made? Am I missing something here? |
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Posted: 2/8/2024 8:15:15 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've got a question. I was under the impression that Federal lost the LC contract and that Winchester took over back in 2020. Why would there be LC22 cases in Federal packaging, if Federal stopped running LC 2 years before the case was made? Am I missing something here? Federal XM193 was still being manufactured at Lake City after Winchester took over. |
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Posted: 2/8/2024 9:37:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Federal XM193 was still being manufactured at Lake City after Winchester took over. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've got a question. I was under the impression that Federal lost the LC contract and that Winchester took over back in 2020. Why would there be LC22 cases in Federal packaging, if Federal stopped running LC 2 years before the case was made? Am I missing something here? Federal XM193 was still being manufactured at Lake City after Winchester took over. Ah, so there was a transition period where Winchester nominally ran LC, but Federal was overseeing production, or something. Okay, that makes some sense. Thanks. |
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Posted: 2/8/2024 9:59:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah, so there was a transition period where Winchester nominally ran LC, but Federal was overseeing production, or something. No, it was manufactured by Winchester for Federal. The Winchester and Federal loads were virtually identical. ... |
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Posted: 2/8/2024 5:31:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it was manufactured by Winchester for Federal. The Winchester and Federal loads were virtually identical. ... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ah, so there was a transition period where Winchester nominally ran LC, but Federal was overseeing production, or something. No, it was manufactured by Winchester for Federal. The Winchester and Federal loads were virtually identical. ... At Lake City, by Winchester, for Federal. |
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Posted: 2/8/2024 8:03:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I ordered a couple of cases of Federal XM193 from that B&T sale. I didnt opt for the expensive "package protection" and it arrived just fine and in about 3 days (they are in Tampa so pretty close to me). But maybe I'm lucky. Anyway, that Fed. XM193 ammo looks good. I was surprised that it is with LC brass with "22" headstamps and NATO cross. Also has the usual SCAMP machine dots and the new (to me) primer pocket crimp with the 4 dents instead of the usual circular crimp. Also looks to have primers sealed. I will shoot it soon and hopefully it holds the 2.5MOA that I'm hoping for. 3 days transit time I wouldn't worry about it as much. But I am on the west coast and it takes 7-8 days for it to arrive to me. I op for it since my package goes through many different hubs and stops crossing the entire country. And for some reason a lot of our carriers have a hard time dropping it at the correct address. Many times over again I have gone to the delivery photo only to see a green house in the photo when mine is gray... |
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Posted: 2/8/2024 8:07:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 3 days transit time I wouldn't worry about it as much. But I am on the west coast and it takes 7-8 days for it to arrive to me. I op for it since my package goes through many different hubs and stops crossing the entire country. And for some reason a lot of our carriers have a hard time dropping it at the correct address. Many times over again I have gone to the delivery photo only to see a green house in the photo when mine is gray... I agree. After I got hit with $35 in State sales taxes I was in no mood to pay another $17 for "insurance". I did get a chance to shoot some of that B&T Federal XM193 today. It shot well, typical XM193. By best 5 shot group was 1.875 and the worst was 3.5MOA. Basically the same as the Winchester Lake City "M193" that I bought in December. Sorry no chrono data. |
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Posted: 2/8/2024 11:23:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Yeah, it sucked paying the extra, but it was a 5 day trip, so didn’t want to chance it.
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Posted: 2/9/2024 12:04:51 AM EDT
[#33]
Bought another box. The deal is too good right now. And, sadly, it's about 80% more expensive than it should be.
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Posted: 2/9/2024 12:31:04 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bought another box. The deal is too good right now. And, sadly, it's about 80% more expensive than it should be. You meant to say “500 round case” right?? 
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Posted: 2/9/2024 2:30:13 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You meant to say “500 round case” right?? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Bought another box. The deal is too good right now. And, sadly, it's about 80% more expensive than it should be. You meant to say “500 round case” right?? Yes, in this scenario the box is 500 rounds, and a case is always 1000 rounds. It's sad these prices are considered steals. |
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Posted: 2/9/2024 3:36:20 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, in this scenario the box is 500 rounds, and a case is always 1000 rounds. It's sad these prices are considered steals. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Bought another box. The deal is too good right now. And, sadly, it's about 80% more expensive than it should be. You meant to say “500 round case” right?? Yes, in this scenario the box is 500 rounds, and a case is always 1000 rounds. It's sad these prices are considered steals. Yeah, it sucks. Wish I would have bought a ton more of South African and Guat 5.56. |
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Posted: 2/9/2024 11:50:45 AM EDT
[#37]
I bought a couple thousand rounds of 55g Xtac 3 years ago. Noticed significantly less recoil and muzzle flash compared to the Winchester 5.56 I had just been shooting so I chrono'd it just for kicks. Was only getting about 2,700 FPS out of my 14.5 BCM. Also was dealing with occasional short strokes/failure to hold open.
Had to swap out to a VLTOR H0 for the remainder of that ammo when I usually run an H2 even when shooting .223. This was unsuppressed as well, and it was still shooting pretty dirty. I haven't bought any since. |
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Posted: 2/10/2024 3:46:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought a couple thousand rounds of 55g Xtac 3 years ago. Noticed significantly less recoil and muzzle flash compared to the Winchester 5.56 I had just been shooting so I chrono'd it just for kicks. Was only getting about 2,700 FPS out of my 14.5 BCM. Also was dealing with occasional short strokes/failure to hold open. Had to swap out to a VLTOR H0 for the remainder of that ammo when I usually run an H2 even when shooting .223. This was unsuppressed as well, and it was still shooting pretty dirty. I haven't bought any since. Interesting, I was only getting 2,515 fps out of my 11.3 Hanson with Xtac 55gr. According to what I've read I should've expected 2,600-2,700. Was thinking I had a bad barrel, need to get my own chrono for further testing. |
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Posted: 2/10/2024 11:49:16 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At Lake City, by Winchester, for Federal. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ah, so there was a transition period where Winchester nominally ran LC, but Federal was overseeing production, or something. No, it was manufactured by Winchester for Federal. The Winchester and Federal loads were virtually identical. ... At Lake City, by Winchester, for Federal. Just like the Winchester 150 and 200 round boxes Federal made when they ran the plant back in 2018. They run ammo for each other regardless of who actually has control of the plant. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 2:16:19 AM EDT
[#40]
Is the winchester 193 in LC stamped brass?
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Posted: 2/11/2024 8:40:54 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is the winchester 193 in LC stamped brass? I just got some Winchester 5.56 from Velocity Ammo Sales. LC 23 stamped. I do note that the stamping is not as deep, so its harder to read the markings. Not sure if this is a new thing for Winchester ammo, or just a glitch, as I haven't ordered ammo since 2017. Otherwise, looks like regular old LC ammo. I didn't notice any primer sealant, nor any evidence of bullet sealer, though I admit I only looked at a couple rounds and I could have missed it. Not an issue for me anyways. |
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Posted: 2/11/2024 9:27:50 AM EDT
[#42]
Thanks billclo should get a few ammo cans before anymore price hikes.
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Posted: 2/11/2024 10:58:04 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks billclo should get a few ammo cans before anymore price hikes. As my ammo timing always stinks, naturally a couple days after I ordered, the price went down 2c/rd.  This is what I ordered: https://www.velocityammosales.com/products/5-56-nato-winchester-m193-55-grain-fmj-case/?utm_source=ammoseek I did double check some more rounds, and I don't see primer sealant, nor bullet sealant. Haven't had a chance to shoot any of it yet; its fresh replacement ammo for M193 I bought back in the 2002-2006 timeframe and am working on shooting up. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 1:46:43 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting, I was only getting 2,515 fps out of my 11.3 Hanson with Xtac 55gr. According to what I've read I should've expected 2,600-2,700. Was thinking I had a bad barrel, need to get my own chrono for further testing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I bought a couple thousand rounds of 55g Xtac 3 years ago. Noticed significantly less recoil and muzzle flash compared to the Winchester 5.56 I had just been shooting so I chrono'd it just for kicks. Was only getting about 2,700 FPS out of my 14.5 BCM. Also was dealing with occasional short strokes/failure to hold open. Had to swap out to a VLTOR H0 for the remainder of that ammo when I usually run an H2 even when shooting .223. This was unsuppressed as well, and it was still shooting pretty dirty. I haven't bought any since. Interesting, I was only getting 2,515 fps out of my 11.3 Hanson with Xtac 55gr. According to what I've read I should've expected 2,600-2,700. Was thinking I had a bad barrel, need to get my own chrono for further testing. I've been warning people to stay away from PMC "XTAC" for years. Did the WORST out of all the M193 clones I velocity tested by far. It's basically on the 223 / 5.56 pressure cusp. I would pay two to three cents more per round for a quality 5.56 M193 clone. From what is commonly available now for "M193", Winchester, Federal, and PPU are pretty good. Velocities can be hit or miss (some lots of each are a lot hotter than others even in same years of production), you are usually within M193 spec from a 20" barrel. |
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Posted: 2/14/2024 12:37:20 AM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 2/14/2024 1:00:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Here is some data for you, pulled off my Garmin chronograph. All ammunition is 2023 production or newer.
PMC X-TAC 55gr 16" Stainless Wilson Combat barrel - 3006 FPS 16" SR-15 - 2940 FPS 16" Colt 6940 - 2932 FPS 14.5" BCM - 2858 FPS 13.9" Criterion CORE - 2890 FPS 11.5" Criterion CORE - 2830 FPS (this barrel is extremely fast, I have no idea why but it registers incredible MV with all ammunition I put through it) 10.3" Daniel Defense MK18 - 2514 FPS Winchester Lake City M193 16" SR-15 - 3003 FPS 14.5" BCM - 2902 FPS It does appear that the Lake City is faster than the X-TAC but the X-TAC is no slouch. I have accuracy tested both in the SR-15 and the X-TAC was shooting much better for me than the Winchester but I need to do more testing before I can comment on how they average across a couple rifles. The Criterion barrels are fast despite showing no excessive pressure. |
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Posted: 2/14/2024 2:04:00 AM EDT
[#47]
Thanks for sharing your data.
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Posted: 2/14/2024 5:34:40 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for sharing your data. |
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Posted: 2/14/2024 7:41:07 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/22392/IMG_5555_jpeg-3128503.JPG I feel like I should buy another case. Lol. Mines coming tomorrow and I feel like I should order more also lol. |
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Posted: 2/14/2024 8:14:46 PM EDT
[#50]
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