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Posted: 3/3/2024 11:21:54 PM EDT
It seems that one of the weakest points (based on ar burndowns) is the gas tube. What would be a high quality, high heat capable, gas tube that would take the abuse?
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/3/2024 11:25:40 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By Voland: It seems that one of the weakest points (based on ar burndowns) is the gas tube. What would be a high quality, high heat capable, gas tube that would take the abuse? That is actually by design. The gas tube should fail before something more catastrophic happens. Why would you want to abuse your weapon? |
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Posted: 3/3/2024 11:35:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Outside of YT videos there’s no need to worry about that. If dumping that much ammo is really a concern I’d suggest something belt fed with spare barrels.
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Posted: 3/3/2024 11:35:34 PM EDT
[#3]
Maybe the Vseven extreme one?
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Posted: 3/3/2024 11:39:40 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: That is actually by design. The gas tube should fail before something more catastrophic happens. Why would you want to abuse your weapon? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By Voland: It seems that one of the weakest points (based on ar burndowns) is the gas tube. What would be a high quality, high heat capable, gas tube that would take the abuse? That is actually by design. The gas tube should fail before something more catastrophic happens. Why would you want to abuse your weapon? On the 20" A1s. Most M4s with a proper milspec gas tube, the tube will survive past a barrel rupture. |
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Posted: 3/3/2024 11:41:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: That is actually by design. The gas tube should fail before something more catastrophic happens. Why would you want to abuse your weapon? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By Voland: It seems that one of the weakest points (based on ar burndowns) is the gas tube. What would be a high quality, high heat capable, gas tube that would take the abuse? That is actually by design. The gas tube should fail before something more catastrophic happens. Why would you want to abuse your weapon? I don't, and I likely never will. He'll, I don't think I've ever ever done a mag dump. That said, I'd like to know that if I had to, I could, worry free. I use melonite tubes today, but wondering if there is anything better. |
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Posted: 3/3/2024 11:50:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Voland: I don't, and I likely never will. He'll, I don't think I've ever ever done a mag dump. That said, I'd like to know that if I had to, I could, worry free. I use melonite tubes today, but wondering if there is anything better. A proper spec USGI gas tube will handle a good amount of sustained fire. 
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Posted: 3/3/2024 11:54:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Voland: I don't, and I likely never will. He'll, I don't think I've ever ever done a mag dump. That said, I'd like to know that if I had to, I could, worry free. I’m sure your current gas tube will survive a mag dump. |
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Posted: 3/4/2024 12:00:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Voland: I don't, and I likely never will. He'll, I don't think I've ever ever done a mag dump. That said, I'd like to know that if I had to, I could, worry free. I use melonite tubes today, but wondering if there is anything better. You're not going to burn up a gas tube |
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Posted: 3/4/2024 12:08:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TGWLDR]
[#9]
Admittedly, not a fan of Chris. But the guy is not stupid.
https://smallarmssolutions.com/home/what-does-destruction-testing-on-firearms-tell-us ETA: Mil testing: FIRE TO DESTRUCTION TESTING |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 12:16:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By j3_: Maybe the Vseven extreme one? This It's inconel alloy. |
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Posted: 3/4/2024 12:18:54 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nehi: This It's inconel alloy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nehi: Originally Posted By j3_: Maybe the Vseven extreme one? This It's inconel alloy. And... From $75.00 to $87.00 |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 12:38:00 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: And... From $75.00 to $87.00 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Originally Posted By Nehi: Originally Posted By j3_: Maybe the Vseven extreme one? This It's inconel alloy. And... From $75.00 to $87.00 Yeah, it's expensive. Also, the purpose is questionable. |
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Posted: 3/4/2024 12:39:47 AM EDT
[#13]
Melonite tubes are nice
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Posted: 3/4/2024 2:16:02 AM EDT
[#14]
I'm sure I'll never break a regular tube, but for $15, I got a nitrided tube from Spikes for my "AR-RPK" builds. Why not, it was cheap?
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Posted: 3/4/2024 4:47:28 AM EDT
[#15]
I've never heard of a gas tube failure outside the full auto mag dump videos. Maybe there are some failures, but I've never heard of one.
Anyone heard of one giving up in actual combat? If you just want something better there are melonite treated tubes that may last a couple of hundred rounds longer on a full auto mag dump. |
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Posted: 3/4/2024 5:56:58 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By APBullet: I've never heard of a gas tube failure outside the full auto mag dump videos. Maybe there are some failures, but I've never heard of one. Anyone heard of one giving up in actual combat? If you just want something better there are melonite treated tubes that may last a couple of hundred rounds longer on a full auto mag dump. The standard combat loadout isn't enough ammo to smoke a gas tube. It certainly may have happened but I don't know that it's ever been publicized. |
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Posted: 3/4/2024 6:33:02 AM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By TGWLDR: And... From $75.00 to $87.00 If you don't want to waste that much cash, get a Spike's nitride gas tube for a little more durability than stock at only a small cost premium. |
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Posted: 3/4/2024 8:11:58 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WrenchGuy: If you don't want to waste that much cash, get a Spike's nitride gas tube for a little more durability than stock at only a small cost premium. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WrenchGuy: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: And... From $75.00 to $87.00 If you don't want to waste that much cash, get a Spike's nitride gas tube for a little more durability than stock at only a small cost premium. I have a few on guns that I didn't want the SS tubes visible through the FF handguards. The inconel has it's advantages for certain, weighing those advantages vs real world use is personal preference. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 9:57:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lysanderxiii]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: That is actually by design. The gas tube should fail before something more catastrophic happens. Why would you want to abuse your weapon? Common misconception, let us please not keep repeating it. The M16 was designed with the small diameter barrel under the hand guard, when the M4 first came out it had a similar profile under the hand guard. Both of these profiles will fail before the gas tube under extreme firing schedules. "Fire to Destruction Test of 5.56mm M4A1 Carbine and M16A2 Rifle Barrels" demonstrated that and M16A2 will fail at around 500 rounds and 1600 degrees F. The M4A1 will rupture the barrel at a similar number of rounds and a similar temperature. The heavy barrel assembly, P/N 12991850, was introduced in 2001 to increase the number of rounds before failure, as knee-jerk reaction to a single incident, in which someone did manage to fire enough rounds to rupture the barrel in combat. They decided that the objective was to double the barrel life, so looked at where the maximum heating is and added enough material absorb the heat. The side effect of that change was that the barrel would withstand more than the gas tube (approximately 900 rounds). It was not "by design," it was "by accident." EDIT: Yes, that is an M16A2 with the 3-round burst, and an M4A1 with full-automatic. The 3-round burst feature does not slow the barrel heating enough make an appreciable difference in the number of rounds before failure. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 12:04:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: s4s4u]
[#20]
Common misconception, let us please not keep repeating it. Am I going to have to dig up the info to corroborate it? I have it saved, but my saved shit is getting large and hard to find so give me a few days  And, we are talking original M16 here, not A2, not M4 |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 12:53:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lysanderxiii]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By s4s4u: Am I going to have to dig up the info to corroborate it? I have it saved, but my saved shit is getting large and hard to find so give me a few days And, we are talking original M16 here, not A2, not M4 The M16A1 and M16A2 barrels are the same contour under the hand guard. Why would an M16A1 barrel last twice as long as an M16A2 barrel? It wouldn't. In "M16A1 Thermal Barrel Firing Test", they hooked up a bunch of thermocouples to an M16A1 barrel and shot a whole bunch of rounds at various rates of fire. While they did not actually fail a barrel (it was deemed unnecessarily dangerous at the time), they did predict where the barrel would most likely fail, about 3 to 4 inches behind the front sight, about where your hand would be in normal firing. But, due the fact that it would take 500 rounds fired as fast a possible, the danger of this actually happening and injuring anyone was extremely remote.  (images from "Fire to destruction Test of 5.56mm M4A1 Carbine and M16A2 Rifle barrels") The highest temperature is reached 6 inches from the breech. The thinnest part of the barrel (under the hand guards) is 12 inches from the breech. The weakest part of the barrel when heated by firing is going to be between the two, right about 9 inches from the breech. And where did they fail? Right there at 9 inches. For the M4, the highest temperature is at 2 and the thinnest part of the barrel is at 3, and they fail right in between those two spots.  (images from "M16A1 Thermal Barrel Firing Test") You won't find anything to show that the gas tube was designed to fail first, because it wasn't. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 1:38:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Voland: I don't, and I likely never will. He'll, I don't think I've ever ever done a mag dump. That said, I'd like to know that if I had to, I could, worry free. I use melonite tubes today, but wondering if there is anything better. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Voland: Originally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By Voland: It seems that one of the weakest points (based on ar burndowns) is the gas tube. What would be a high quality, high heat capable, gas tube that would take the abuse? That is actually by design. The gas tube should fail before something more catastrophic happens. Why would you want to abuse your weapon? I don't, and I likely never will. He'll, I don't think I've ever ever done a mag dump. That said, I'd like to know that if I had to, I could, worry free. I use melonite tubes today, but wondering if there is anything better. Meloniting a strain-hardening alloy (like austenitic stainless steel) is completely silly. If it isn't a low-carbon variant (304L - "L" for "Low Carbon") then exposure to the meloniting temperatures has "sensitized it" - it is now susceptible to intergranular corrosion, whereas before it was not. Even if it is a low-carbon stainless steel, exposure to the meloniting temperature has killed its strength. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 2:07:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lysanderxiii]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Admittedly, not a fan of Chris. But the guy is not stupid. https://smallarmssolutions.com/home/what-does-destruction-testing-on-firearms-tell-us He is also spreading the myth that the 20 barrel is designed to fail the gas tube first. It isn't. In fact, you can calculate where and when a barrel will fail with good accuracy. You first need the pressure vs distance curve for the ammunition being used, programs like Quickload will give you this. The next thing you need is the barrel profile, from which you get the wall thickness of the barrel as you go down the barrel. From these to things you can calculate (and graph) the hoop stress on the barrel in relation to the the distance from the breech. Next you need the temperature profile in relation to distance from the breech, that can be gained by referencing the graph in my last post. Look up the yield strength vs temperature graph for the particular steel in the barrel, and compare it to the hoop stress graph. The lowest temperature that exceeds the highest hoop stress is where the barrel will fail, and that temperature will be when it occurs. To find the number of rounds required, go back to the barrel temperature graph, find the closest thermocouple to the failure point and project the line upwards until you reach the failure temperature. That will give you the time to get to that temperature, and the rate of fire will give you the number of rounds, plus or minus 50 rounds and about a inch or so. If you do that for an M16A1 barrel firing M193 ammunition firing one twenty round magazine every 5 seconds, failure should occur 10.661" from the breech after 532 rounds. Not very far off the experimental data from the M16A2, which failed 8 inches from the breech after 491 rounds. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 2:36:10 PM EDT
[#24]
To sum all this up, OP, unless you have a FA lower and plan to run somewhere north of 500-1000 rounds through it without stopping, there is literally nothing to worry about.
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Posted: 3/4/2024 2:51:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: j3_]
[#25]
I watched five random ones and saw one the gas tube gave out on but who knows if it was a spec made tube or not. I'm not sure cooking it in burning plastic handguards during a firing test counts as a real failure anyway.
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Posted: 3/4/2024 3:10:47 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lysanderxiii: He is also spreading the myth that the 20 barrel is designed to fail the gas tube first. It isn't. In fact, you can calculate where and when a barrel will fail with good accuracy. You first need the pressure vs distance curve for the ammunition being used, programs like Quickload will give you this. The next thing you need is the barrel profile, from which you get the wall thickness of the barrel as you go down the barrel. From these to things you can calculate (and graph) the hoop stress on the barrel in relation to the the distance from the breech. Next you need the temperature profile in relation to distance from the breech, that can be gained by referencing the graph in my last post. Look up the yield strength vs temperature graph for the particular steel in the barrel, and compare it to the hoop stress graph. The lowest temperature that exceeds the highest hoop stress is where the barrel will fail, and that temperature will be when it occurs. To find the number of rounds required, go back to the barrel temperature graph, find the closest thermocouple to the failure point and project the line upwards until you reach the failure temperature. That will give you the time to get to that temperature, and the rate of fire will give you the number of rounds, plus or minus 50 rounds and about a inch or so. If you do that for an M16A1 barrel firing M193 ammunition firing one twenty round magazine every 5 seconds, failure should occur 10.661" from the breech after 532 rounds. Not very far off the experimental data from the M16A2, which failed 8 inches from the breech after 491 rounds. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lysanderxiii: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Admittedly, not a fan of Chris. But the guy is not stupid. https://smallarmssolutions.com/home/what-does-destruction-testing-on-firearms-tell-us He is also spreading the myth that the 20 barrel is designed to fail the gas tube first. It isn't. In fact, you can calculate where and when a barrel will fail with good accuracy. You first need the pressure vs distance curve for the ammunition being used, programs like Quickload will give you this. The next thing you need is the barrel profile, from which you get the wall thickness of the barrel as you go down the barrel. From these to things you can calculate (and graph) the hoop stress on the barrel in relation to the the distance from the breech. Next you need the temperature profile in relation to distance from the breech, that can be gained by referencing the graph in my last post. Look up the yield strength vs temperature graph for the particular steel in the barrel, and compare it to the hoop stress graph. The lowest temperature that exceeds the highest hoop stress is where the barrel will fail, and that temperature will be when it occurs. To find the number of rounds required, go back to the barrel temperature graph, find the closest thermocouple to the failure point and project the line upwards until you reach the failure temperature. That will give you the time to get to that temperature, and the rate of fire will give you the number of rounds, plus or minus 50 rounds and about a inch or so. If you do that for an M16A1 barrel firing M193 ammunition firing one twenty round magazine every 5 seconds, failure should occur 10.661" from the breech after 532 rounds. Not very far off the experimental data from the M16A2, which failed 8 inches from the breech after 491 rounds. Calculations/ graphs are not one of my strengths. I guess that I am guilty as well of perpetuating some of the derp. I have read several firsthand accounts from credible sources detailing how at ~400+ rounds of full auto fire their gas tubes on the A1 guns turned red hot and dog legged then burst, shutting the gun down. I always chalked it up to design limitations rather than intended design traits though. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 5:08:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tiribulus]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: I have a few on guns that I didn't want the SS tubes visible through the FF handguards. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 3/4/2024 5:16:17 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Calculations/ graphs are not one of my strengths. I guess that I am guilty as well of perpetuating some of the derp. I have read several firsthand accounts from credible sources detailing how at ~400+ rounds of full auto fire their gas tubes on the A1 guns turned red hot and dog legged then burst, shutting the gun down. I always chalked it up to design limitations rather than intended design traits though. The highest pressure in the gas tube is right at the gas port, that's about 4,000 psi. It drops to about half that at the gas key. Similarly, the highest temperature of the gas in the tube is at the front sight, and that is where the tube gets hottest. The most likely place a tube would fail is immediately after the front sight, not at the bends. As an aside the maximum pressure that size and material tube can withstand in 7,000 psi. At 1,000° F its strength is 73%, at 1,200° F, its at 37%, the tube will have to be around 1090° F to pop. |
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Posted: 3/4/2024 10:33:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lysanderxiii: The highest pressure in the gas tube is right at the gas port, that's about 4,000 psi. It drops to about half that at the gas key. Similarly, the highest temperature of the gas in the tube is at the front sight, and that is where the tube gets hottest. The most likely place a tube would fail is immediately after the front sight, not at the bends. As an aside the maximum pressure that size and material tube can withstand in 7,000 psi. At 1,000° F its strength is 73%, at 1,200° F, its at 37%, the tube will have to be around 1090° F to pop. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lysanderxiii: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Calculations/ graphs are not one of my strengths. I guess that I am guilty as well of perpetuating some of the derp. I have read several firsthand accounts from credible sources detailing how at ~400+ rounds of full auto fire their gas tubes on the A1 guns turned red hot and dog legged then burst, shutting the gun down. I always chalked it up to design limitations rather than intended design traits though. The highest pressure in the gas tube is right at the gas port, that's about 4,000 psi. It drops to about half that at the gas key. Similarly, the highest temperature of the gas in the tube is at the front sight, and that is where the tube gets hottest. The most likely place a tube would fail is immediately after the front sight, not at the bends. As an aside the maximum pressure that size and material tube can withstand in 7,000 psi. At 1,000° F its strength is 73%, at 1,200° F, its at 37%, the tube will have to be around 1090° F to pop. Thank you for the calculations. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 3/31/2024 6:54:31 PM EDT
[#30]
I disagree.
A soldier blazing away in a fight for his life doesn't need the gas tube to pop to preserve his rifle, while he dies, for the next alive guy to repair. I think the gas tube as a fusible link is just youtube shop talk. It's simply the weakest part of the design. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 7:27:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GracieMae: I disagree. A soldier blazing away in a fight for his life doesn't need the gas tube to pop to preserve his rifle, while he dies, for the next alive guy to repair. I think the gas tube as a fusible link is just youtube shop talk. It's simply the weakest part of the design. Have you ever seen a gas tube fail like that? |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 7:46:41 PM EDT
[#32]
Around twenty years ago I fired my Colt 10.5” M-16A1 with an aluminum bolt carrier (cyclic rate of 1,400 rpm +)
I inserted a Beta Company C-Mag loaded with M193 and proceeded to do a full magazine dump, it trashed the gas tube and turned the barrel finish a tan color. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 7:51:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Have you ever seen a gas tube fail like that? I've seen several do it on bumpfire guns. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 7:54:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: I've seen several do it on bumpfire guns. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Have you ever seen a gas tube fail like that? I've seen several do it on bumpfire guns. What were the approximate round counts? We talking realistic load outs or burn down status? |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 8:22:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGWLDR]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: What were the approximate round counts? We talking realistic load outs or burn down status? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Have you ever seen a gas tube fail like that? I've seen several do it on bumpfire guns. What were the approximate round counts? We talking realistic load outs or burn down status? Definitely burn down/abuse cycles. 12+ or so 30 rd mags back to back. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 8:33:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Definitely burn down/abuse cycles. 12+ or so 30 rd mags back to back. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Have you ever seen a gas tube fail like that? I've seen several do it on bumpfire guns. What were the approximate round counts? We talking realistic load outs or burn down status? Definitely burn down/abuse cycles. 12+ or so 30 rd mags back to back. That certainly seems to agree with what I've read over the years. I just think it's a non issue for semi auto users with anything resembling normal firing schedules. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 8:37:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGWLDR]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: That certainly seems to agree with what I've read over the years. I just think it's a non issue for semi auto users with anything resembling normal firing schedules Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Have you ever seen a gas tube fail like that? I've seen several do it on bumpfire guns. What were the approximate round counts? We talking realistic load outs or burn down status? Definitely burn down/abuse cycles. 12+ or so 30 rd mags back to back. That certainly seems to agree with what I've read over the years. I just think it's a non issue for semi auto users with anything resembling normal firing schedules Definitely. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 9:03:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: I have a few on guns that I didn't want the SS tubes visible through the FF handguards. The inconel has it's advantages for certain, weighing those advantages vs real world use is personal preference. This 
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/1/2024 7:53:43 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGWLDR: Definitely burn down/abuse cycles. 12+ or so 30 rd mags back to back. 12 pounds of ammunition . . . ? |
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Posted: 4/1/2024 8:41:16 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lysanderxiii: 12 pounds of ammunition . . . ? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lysanderxiii: Originally Posted By TGWLDR: Definitely burn down/abuse cycles. 12+ or so 30 rd mags back to back. 12 pounds of ammunition . . . ? That would be very close. |
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OR, USA
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Posted: 4/1/2024 9:43:11 AM EDT
[#41]
I will never shoot hard enough to melt a gas tube. That said I am partial to Spikes melonited gas tubes.
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Posted: 4/1/2024 10:09:23 AM EDT
[#42]
much to do about nothing
USGI is fine |
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Posted: 4/1/2024 10:09:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mudholestomper]
[#43]
The biggest failure point in an ar is the cost of ammo. If you want to burn up a gas tube, it’s going to cost way more to purchase a full auto and the ammo and mags required to destroy the gas tube than you’ll probably ever shoot and most definitely in one rapid fire sitting.
Gas tube failure due to an intentional burn down is the last thing you should be focusing on. It’s the equivalent of focusing on which barrel is most reliable as underground plumbing. |
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