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Posted: 5/24/2020 9:49:55 AM EDT
[#1]
My rule of thumb is to always go with the mount/rings torque specs. Often scope manufacturers recommend using the appropriate torque specs for your rings and dont even recommend number themselves. Scope manufacturers have no idea the mount or setup you are using or how much pressure a screw torqued to 18 in/lb is actually putting on the scope. The ring/mount manufacturer would in theory test this for their products and recommend the appropriate amount to hold the scope tightly without causing damage. For example brand x rings might recommend 50in/lb and be perfectly safe for the scope while brand z recommends 18in/lb and anything more would cause damage, scope manufacturers would have no idea which you are using or which torque specs to recommend
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:09:36 AM EDT
[#2]
Wait. Are they talking about the same thing?
I would read that as rings to rail at 30, but rings to scope at 18. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:12:30 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait. Are they talking about the same thing? I would read that as rings to rail at 30, but rings to scope at 18. Nope LaRue LT-104 (one piece base) says torque rings to 30, Vortex for example (and others) say 18 max... hence the headache. Even Warne, Bobro, etc will say 20-30 on the rings.. but a lot of optics use that 18 number and it is driving me nuts because I obviously want it right, but don't want to hurt the optic, but also want the rings to hold as manufacturer states... |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:19:32 AM EDT
[#4]
American Rifle Co.'s M10 rings are torqued to 50-55 in-lbs for both scope clamp and rail clamp.
Kinda crazy the first time you go that high on the scope. They are a different design though, not a normal scope cap. If you are dealing with a good scope company and a good ring company, I go with the ring company's recommendation. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:19:50 AM EDT
[#5]
I have never ever exceeed 20in/lbs on any traditional scope rings including Larue
Having said that...you can...if you want (not sure why)....torque the bottom screws to 30 in/lbs...but the top ones...don't go above 18 dry...if you are using loctite...use 15... The ONLY rings...due to its design...that calls for high torque value is the ARC...50 in/lbs...but its using a single screw, wrap around-hinged design... |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:21:03 AM EDT
[#6]
I would not torque to 30.
I would think 30 would be for steel to steel, like on the rail, but not steel into aluminum. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:21:19 AM EDT
[#7]
There have reports on here of scope damage from using 30inlb on some scopes including vortex.
I use what the scope manufacturer says and have never had an issue. I do not baby my rifles either. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:26:04 AM EDT
[#8]
I posted in Vortex section as well to see if they respond... I assume they will say 18... or it voids the warranty.
I'll just start with 18, see if it holds, and hopefully hear back from Vortex in their industry section... or email them on Tuesday. It just baffles me why the mounts would say something like 30 but the optics themselves say 18 max, or 15-20, etc. One would think they would coincide somewhat. I'm not about to destroy a $1k optic over a $200 mount though either. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:38:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Always go with the scope manufacturer's recommendation.
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:44:01 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait. Are they talking about the same thing? I would read that as rings to rail at 30, but rings to scope at 18. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:50:00 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  Installing LaRue Mounts With Vertical Rings |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:53:12 AM EDT
[#12]
The actual instructions with my scope say 15-18 max as well.
 How To: Tighten Riflescope Rings |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 11:54:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Always go with the scope manufacturer's recommendation. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 12:39:12 PM EDT
[#14]
The actual thread pitch and diameter has more to do with how much force a given screw will have for a given torque. Likewise, the width of the rings will also have an effect on how that force is distributed on the scope tube.
For example, a #6-48 will have more force than a #6-32 at the same 18 in-lbs of torque. A ring that is 20% wider will also have a corresponding 20% less surface pressure for the same total force. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 5:10:38 PM EDT
[#15]
I crimped a vortex Diamondback scope tube torquing to 30 in lbs as per the ring manufacturers spec before. I go with the scope manufacturers recommendations now for any standard type ring (excluding ARC or other oddball designs).
Also, I think Vortex lower end lines honestly have flimsier tubes more prone to crimping than their Razor or PST lines. I can’t comment on their hunting scopes though, haven’t fondled them personally. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 5:13:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Thanks, this is a PST Gen II. I went with 18, seems solid enough. Proof will come at the range I guess.
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Posted: 5/24/2020 5:17:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I crimped a vortex Diamondback scope tube torquing to 30 in lbs as per the ring manufacturers spec before. I go with the scope manufacturers recommendations now for any standard type ring (excluding ARC or other oddball designs). Also, I think Vortex lower end lines honestly have flimsier tubes more prone to crimping than their Razor or PST lines. I can’t comment on their hunting scopes though, haven’t fondled them personally. My former employer caused a first-gen Razor HD to malfunction by using German torque specs on the rings. Part of the reason I like bedding rings with epoxy is it remarkably increases the clamping area at lower torque values. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 5:20:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Edited.
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Posted: 5/24/2020 5:23:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Look at it this way, if you send a scope in for warranty repair for a deformed tube, do you think they’ll care what larue calls for?
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Posted: 5/24/2020 7:20:37 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My rule of thumb is to always go with the mount/rings torque specs. Often scope manufacturers recommend using the appropriate torque specs for your rings and dont even recommend number themselves. Scope manufacturers have no idea the mount or setup you are using or how much pressure a screw torqued to 18 in/lb is actually putting on the scope. The ring/mount manufacturer would in theory test this for their products and recommend the appropriate amount to hold the scope tightly without causing damage. For example brand x rings might recommend 50in/lb and be perfectly safe for the scope while brand z recommends 18in/lb and anything more would cause damage, scope manufacturers would have no idea which you are using or which torque specs to recommend Scope manufacturers are basing their torque numbers on the strength of their tubes. You know, the things you can crush with too much torque? Always use the lesser value of the two, that way you aren't exceeding the limits of either the mount/ rings or the optic. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 7:46:51 PM EDT
[#21]
I purchased the scalaworks mount for the 1-10 razor. The rings have a larger diameter and require a 25 lbs of torque. I contacted vortex and they said 25 would not be a issue with my setup. I would confirm with the scope maker before install.
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Posted: 5/24/2020 8:03:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I purchased the scalaworks mount for the 1-10 razor. The rings have a larger diameter and require a 25 lbs of torque. I contacted vortex and they said 25 would not be a issue with my setup. I would confirm with the scope maker before install. Yep will do. This mount has vertical rings, so I wonder if that changes things from Vortex's perspective al all. I went with 18 for now, can always tighten it up if they say it is ok to do so. |
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Posted: 5/24/2020 8:41:14 PM EDT
[#23]
I've successfully used 20 inch pounds on several Larue mounts. I do true the rings with the Wheeler scope ring lapping tool though to eliminate any high pressure areas.
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Posted: 5/24/2020 10:22:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've successfully used 20 inch pounds on several Larue mounts. I do true the rings with the Wheeler scope ring lapping tool though to eliminate any high pressure areas. This is not recommended and has resulted in many past posts about "my scope slips and larue sucks..." only to finally tease out of the poster that they lapped the mount. |
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Posted: 5/25/2020 1:01:02 AM EDT
[#25]
Tight is tight, when it feels right, stop.
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Posted: 5/25/2020 10:55:15 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is not recommended and has resulted in many past posts about "my scope slips and larue sucks..." only to finally tease out of the poster that they lapped the mount. This. High end single piece mounts do not need lapped. On bolt guns, check ring alignment. Since you have a separate base, rings, and torque the base to the receiver, it could be out of alignment and need some lapping due to stack up. Also, it may need some if you use cheap rings, bases, etc... but not buying cheap shit generally makes this a non issue. Don’t over do it on lapping, lots of people open up the rings too much and cause issues. |
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Posted: 5/25/2020 11:03:58 AM EDT
[#27]
I'm not lapping anything. It's a one pice base with vertical rings and everything seems pretty solid. The LaRue LT-104 comes with dried red thread locker on the rings screws and it is engaged.
So I torqued to 15, which with the dry thread locker "should" equate to about 18, and I think it is good to go. Will have it at the range next weekend and see how she does. Everything on the scope moves as freely as it did before it was installed so I think I'm good. If I experience any shifts I will adjust torque or just go with a different mount, but I think I'm good. |
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Posted: 5/25/2020 12:33:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I posted in Vortex section as well to see if they respond... I assume they will say 18... or it voids the warranty. I'll just start with 18, see if it holds, and hopefully hear back from Vortex in their industry section... or email them on Tuesday. It just baffles me why the mounts would say something like 30 but the optics themselves say 18 max, or 15-20, etc. One would think they would coincide somewhat. I'm not about to destroy a $1k optic over a $200 mount though either. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 10:31:55 AM EDT
[#29]
Direct from Vortex for everyone's FYI:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/Ring-torque-optic-spec-vs-mount-spec-/277-295892/ |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 11:54:32 AM EDT
[#30]
18 was not enough with 2 different Aero Lightweight mounts, optic moved under recoil and had very clear high spots, I had to go to 24 before the optic didnt move under recoil.
Makes me second guess Aero mounts 
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Posted: 5/27/2020 1:01:22 PM EDT
[#31]
I have an allergy to any vertically split ring system.
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Posted: 5/27/2020 1:25:39 PM EDT
[#32]
In absence of an emergency I would call Vortex and get clarification. Otherwise go with Vortex spec and explore retighten/retorquing if the scope actually slips, but you'll never be able to uncrush the tube if 30 damages it. It's kind of like measure twice, cut once.
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Posted: 5/27/2020 1:30:50 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In absence of an emergency I would call Vortex and get clarification. Otherwise go with Vortex spec and explore retighten/retorquing if the scope actually slips, but you'll never be able to uncrush the tube if 30 damages it. It's kind of like measure twice, cut once. Please look 4 posts up for direct response from Vortex... |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 2:02:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Awesome. Never noticed a torque spec in the Vortex manual and didn't think twice about the Larue spec being too tight. Any benefit to loosening the rings now? Viper PST in an LT204.
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Posted: 5/27/2020 2:25:26 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Awesome. Never noticed a torque spec in the Vortex manual and didn't think twice about the Larue spec being too tight. Any benefit to loosening the rings now? Viper PST in an LT204. I also have an LT204 and a Viper PST I will be mounting soon. I previously mounted a Leupold with an LT204 and the idea that I shouldn't just blindly trust the ring's instructions never occurred to me. This thread definitely will give me pause in the future. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 2:53:29 PM EDT
[#36]
follow recommendations for the optic
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Posted: 5/27/2020 3:35:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Always go with the scope manufacturer's recommendation. Nope. When I called Vortex about my Gen II Razor and ARC M10 rings they had no idea WTF I was talking about and said 15 in/lbs. Those rings should be 45-55 in/lbs as they use a single huge screw rather than 4 screws on each ring. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 3:48:34 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope. When I called Vortex about my Gen II Razor and ARC M10 rings they had no idea WTF I was talking about and said 15 in/lbs. Those rings should be 45-55 in/lbs as they use a single huge screw rather than 4 screws on each ring. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 3:54:02 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Awesome. Never noticed a torque spec in the Vortex manual and didn't think twice about the Larue spec being too tight. Any benefit to loosening the rings now? Viper PST in an LT204. Yes there absolutely can be reason to loosen your rings and then re-torque. Does your scope hold zero and track fine now, though? If so, don't touch it. If not, then alleviating the stress caused by the rings certainly can help - the metal has some flex and memory to it and it can rebound back into shape and be good as new at times if the stress wasn't too much. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 3:58:24 PM EDT
[#40]
Folks with LaRue, ADM Recon or other similar truly vertically split rings - please note the edit
There's so many kinds out there it's hard to keep straight and there was an error in our previous post in the industry forum. Please note the change here For these kinds of rings/mounts, torque the BOTTOM's first. Then the tops. Bottoms to about 25 inch pounds, then tops to our recommended 15-18 inch pounds. No loc-tite on those. The gap should actually be at the top and the ring should be totally closed at the bottom. Apologies for the error - we've corrected it on the other post we made as well. Sorry about that OP |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 4:02:02 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I doubt they'd void the warranty TBH. Vortex tries to help people who make mistakes, that's the point of their warranty. Of course I may be wrong. I'd go with their spec though. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 4:02:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Folks with LaRue, ADM Recon or other similar truly vertically split rings - please note the edit There's so many kinds out there it's hard to keep straight and there was an error in our previous post in the industry forum. Please note the change here For these kinds of rings/mounts, torque the BOTTOM's first. Then the tops. Bottoms to about 25 inch pounds, then tops to our recommended 15-18 inch pounds. No loc-tite on those. The gap should actually be at the top and the ring should be totally closed at the bottom. Apologies for the error - we've corrected it on the other post we made as well. Sorry about that OP Thanks for clarifying! It didn't "sound right", and I have not made the change yet, so glad you came back and corrected, thanks! |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 4:10:46 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for clarifying! It didn't "sound right", and I have not made the change yet, so glad you came back and corrected, thanks! |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 4:32:08 PM EDT
[#44]
When a scope slips in its mount, people blame the mount.
When a scope is clamped so hard in the mount that it does not work, people blame the scope. Go with what the scope manufacturer recommends especially if you plan to be dialing with that scope at all. As far as Larue's vertically split rings go (same for Warne, ADM and a few others), if you are planning to dial with the scope, make sure your scope can co-exist with these mounts. Vertially all of these squeeze the scope tube in an asymmetric fashion. Some scopes are OK with and some aren't. Naturally, the position also matters. ILya |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 4:37:43 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We literally have the torque specs on a tag wrapped around the scope tube that prevent you from even mounting the scope without first removing the tag lol! It's possible yours got taken off at the dealer, though. Yes there absolutely can be reason to loosen your rings and then re-torque. Does your scope hold zero and track fine now, though? If so, don't touch it. If not, then alleviating the stress caused by the rings certainly can help - the metal has some flex and memory to it and it can rebound back into shape and be good as new at times if the stress wasn't too much. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Awesome. Never noticed a torque spec in the Vortex manual and didn't think twice about the Larue spec being too tight. Any benefit to loosening the rings now? Viper PST in an LT204. Yes there absolutely can be reason to loosen your rings and then re-torque. Does your scope hold zero and track fine now, though? If so, don't touch it. If not, then alleviating the stress caused by the rings certainly can help - the metal has some flex and memory to it and it can rebound back into shape and be good as new at times if the stress wasn't too much. Nothing was wrapped around my scope tube. It's been zeroed and holds zero, although I've only put 60 rounds through it. ETA: Found the tag, face down in the bottom of the box. I purchased through Expert Voice. I just opened up a NIB PST 3-15 I have for another rifle I'm putting together and that has the tag. The tag on my first scope is missing the white string and hasn't been ripped through. Maybe the guys were out of string that day. NBD, you guys have a rep as a great company. As you said above, I'm sure if something goes south down the road I'll be gtg. |
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