Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » Optics, Mounts, and Sights
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Site Notices
Posted: 2/12/2020 1:25:28 AM EDT
I often see assertions about how much LPVOs have detrimental low light performance because of the small objective lens.  I have never experienced this myself in the oourse of shooting matches, sometimes in fading light, and shooting at my home range or shooting coyotes.

Of course, when it is truly dark, it is time for NV or thermal.

These pictures were all taken with both the rifle and the phone (camera) offhand.   Tomorrow evening I will try to get some no illumination (flashlight) with reticle illumination on pictures.

I personally find the 1-6x24 to be usable up to the point that NV becomes necessary.





Link Posted: 2/12/2020 4:57:36 AM EDT
[#1]
I think it would depend mostly on the exit pupil, which is a function of objective diameter/power.  The human eye (when young) opens to a max of about 7mm.  As you get older that becomes more like 5-6mm.  A Vortex 1-6x24 would hit a 7mm exit pupil at 3.4x and 5mm at 4.8x.  Depending on how wide your pupils open there’s a limit to useful magnification without dimming the image.
That said, on the low end of magnification (1x) you have something like a 24mm exit pupil, which is why LPVOs can have forgiving eye placement.  In theory this is wasting some of the 24mm aperture’s incoming light since it’s passing the light through in a 24mm circle where your eye can only take in 5-7mm.
If the goal is use as a 1x in low-light or with a light, it should be similar to your eyes or arguably very slightly worse since there are transmission losses in any optic.
If the goal is maximum low-light performance (i.e. shooting in deep twilight) you’d probably want to set the magnification to give you an exit pupil matching your dark-adapted eye.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 8:59:47 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I think it would depend mostly on the exit pupil, which is a function of objective diameter/power.  The human eye (when young) opens to a max of about 7mm.  As you get older that becomes more like 5-6mm.  A Vortex 1-6x24 would hit a 7mm exit pupil at 3.4x and 5mm at 4.8x.  Depending on how wide your pupils open there’s a limit to useful magnification without dimming the image.
That said, on the low end of magnification (1x) you have something like a 24mm exit pupil, which is why LPVOs can have forgiving eye placement.  In theory this is wasting some of the 24mm aperture’s incoming light since it’s passing the light through in a 24mm circle where your eye can only take in 5-7mm.
If the goal is use as a 1x in low-light or with a light, it should be similar to your eyes or arguably very slightly worse since there are transmission losses in any optic.
If the goal is maximum low-light performance (i.e. shooting in deep twilight) you’d probably want to set the magnification to give you an exit pupil matching your dark-adapted eye.
View Quote
My whole point of posting pictures is to get beyond the theories about exit pupil and light transmission.

I can see through the optic just fine well after the time when illumination is necessary for proper target ID.  In fact I can see through it better than through the slightly tinted glass of a red dot.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 9:31:39 AM EDT
[#3]
I’ve never really had any issues hunting with LPVOs, which entails using the LPVO in dusk/dawn while discerning details of targets that are in concealment and effectively camouflaged. I’m sure it’s not optimal, but it’s never been a hindrance either.

I’m mostly referring to the 1-6 Accupoint and 1-8 Accupower, but I’m sure that statement is applicable to other higher end LPVOs as well. There’s a good chance I’ll use the Razor on at least one hunt next Fall and I predict it will perform similarly.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 11:23:54 AM EDT
[#4]
Not all LPVO's perform like the Razor. But your point still stands.

The Spectre's do just fine in low light as well.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 11:25:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I can see through the optic just fine well after the time when illumination is necessary for proper target ID.  In fact I can see through it better than through the slightly tinted glass of a red dot.
View Quote
The discussions of LPVO's limitations in low-light typically concern hunting. The limitations show up in the woods at the beginning or end of shooting hours and when doing things like trying to determine whether a deer is legal that's partially obscured by brush or leaves and 50-100 yards away. Most people will appreciate that 5-7mm exit pupil at 6-9x that a 33-40mm objective will give you over the 4mm exit pupil that you're likely to get with an LPVO at 6x.

Moreover, the discussion also typically concerns cost and weight tradeoffs. A Vortex Razor HD at 6x is probably going to be comparable in low light to something like a Nikon P series or Leupold Freedom in 3-9x40, even though the Razor has a 2.7mm smaller exit pupil at that power due to (what should be) the Razor's lens coatings and quality. However, those traditional hunting scopes can go to higher magnification while still providing similar light transmission, weigh less, and cost 75% less. Those are important factors to most hunters, while most hunters don't care about 1x.

Also, you're looking through an LPVO at 1x. Nobody has ever contended LPVOs have low-light issues at 1x. At 1x, the LPVO is transmitting as much light as your eye can take in, but that will start to get restricted around 4x with a 24mm objective. Crank that thing up to 6x, kill the supplemental lighting, and let's see what we get. A side by side comparison at 6x with something like a 3-9x40 would be interesting too. Of course, the phone will make its own light adjustments, so it might not show perfectly what the eye sees. Unfortunately, optics will always be highly subjective because there just aren't many useful, readily available, and truly objective measures of their performance.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 11:50:02 AM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 9:30:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Thanks for the discussion gents.  I will try to get out and get some more pictures soon.

It was kind of a spur of the moment thing, taking a few the other night at twilight while walking back from the range.  Rifle and camera were both offhand so it was tough.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 10:01:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Anyway - to your point - the small objective lens diameter of LPVO's shouldn't be a reason to shy away from them when it comes to low light usage. If one were looking solely at optics that are comparable in overall quality and have at least mostly similar magnification ranges but perhaps different in objective lens diameter, then you would likely see better performance out of the scope with the larger objective lens. (This is also speaking within the same brand - price really can't accurately be used as an accurate quality comparison across brands because each brand has its own price structure and product development tactics/tricks/methods/etc). If you're looking at a Razor, though, like pictured, compared to a scope that's half the price or even less, and they have at least similar mag ranges but the significantly less expensive one has a bigger objective bell... Well... In most cases that Razor is likely to have the edge just because it has such a dang good optical system.
View Quote
Agreed!

Off topic, @VortexOptics  , but did you know it is possible to adjust the diopter on the Razor sufficiently to allow cowitness with an IR laser and allow one to zero a laser to the crosshairs of the reticle without firing a shot.   Kudos on an awesome product.

Link Posted: 2/13/2020 1:05:43 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Agreed!

Off topic, @VortexOptics  , but did you know it is possible to adjust the diopter on the Razor sufficiently to allow cowitness with an IR laser and allow one to zero a laser to the crosshairs of the reticle without firing a shot.   Kudos on an awesome product.

https://i.imgur.com/3MqkDl6.jpg
View Quote
isn't that possible with basically any optic? Look through optic at the target, adjust laser to correspond to crosshairs/dot/reticle, profit? Easily done with visible laser. Doing it with an IR laser just requires looking through the optic with NV. Not sure what the diopter has to do with anything. I've done it with an ACOG, which doesn't have an adjustable diopter.

Am I misunderstanding what you mean?
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 11:00:21 AM EDT
[#10]
Came in here to post my take but Vortex already said it.

If it works to your expectations, great. If it doesn't, the search continues.

The road to true firearms knowledge is not paved with YouTube time. The road to true firearms knowledge is paved with money and spent casings.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 12:43:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

isn't that possible with basically any optic? Look through optic at the target, adjust laser to correspond to crosshairs/dot/reticle, profit? Easily done with visible laser. Doing it with an IR laser just requires looking through the optic with NV. Not sure what the diopter has to do with anything. I've done it with an ACOG, which doesn't have an adjustable diopter.

Am I misunderstanding what you mean?
View Quote
It is difficult with NV because there is adjustment to focus the NV optics at the distance that you want clarity.  If you look up at the stars and adjust it so that they are crisp, small and in focus, then look down at your hands, your hands will be quite fuzzy.

Looking through a NV capable red dot is no problem, because you are looking through some glass windows, essentially.    With a magnified optic, looking through it with another optical system that has elements of focus adjustment, it doesn't work as well.

If you get everything focused properly, you could actually shoot while looking through a day optic with NV.  But when you pulled your head away from the scope to look around, everything would be extremely out of focus, a complete blur.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 12:57:40 PM EDT
[#12]
As menstioned before, pics of your lpvo at 6 power as that is one of the complaints of lpvos being naturally limited in low light situations due to such a small exit pupil at max magnification, not 1x.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 2:41:31 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
As menstioned before, pics of your lpvo at 6 power as that is one of the complaints of lpvos being naturally limited in low light situations due to such a small exit pupil at max magnification, not 1x.
View Quote
I will take some the next time I get a chance.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 3:16:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 2/23/2020 2:50:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Any new pics bychance?
Link Posted: 2/23/2020 7:25:07 PM EDT
[#16]
I think I'll do a video on low light performance of LPVOs.  This question keeps on coming up.

I talked a little bit about eye pupil and exit pupil here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiLZ_BEq7_I

I thing going a little more in depth is worthwhile.  Also, someone a little earlier mentioned that exit pupil on 1x is 24mm.  That is a absolutely incorrect.

ILya
Page AR-15 » Optics, Mounts, and Sights
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top