damit, every time I see this thread I need one and now I'm going to find the parts and build one.

I love them...more than the MOE's too  These things are rigid, but the Israelis make shit for war so.....be advised the thing that sucks is the QD sockets are proprietary...you have to use the CAA swivels.  I have come to like most of the Israel made stuff honestly.

Does this fit here? I'm pretty sure it does.

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Now that is a thing of true beauty!

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Cheers

It seems to be a lot more flat tops these days I the idf. A few years ago it seemed all A1.

Does it have heat shields inside?

They cycle weapons like crazy. 07-09 timeframe, in my unit anyway, everybody got an A1 with a 13" barrel at the beginning of tironut (basic training). A couple weeks in, everybody gets their "pakal," or the kit they'll be trained on. Shitbirds got to carry pakal mayim (big ass can of water) or the alunkah (stretcher), big guys got the MAG (FN MAG machinegun), strong fast guys got the Negev (LMG), and guys who could shoot (nearly always Americans, to be honest) were sent to a designated marksman course to be a calah (shooter) and received an M4, flat top, with a night optic (either a Litton Akilah or Israeli-made Lior) and an ACOG. At this point, everybody who was still carrying an A1 received a Meprolight 21.

As unit numbers dwindled (mostly through attrition...guys getting injured out or taking other duties like going to commander's course) we ended up with some spare flat tops and gave them to guys who would appreciate using them.

Why more flat tops today than A1s? Same reason you don't see any 20" barrels outside of old ass pictures. Most of the dedicated combat infantry battalions now use Tavors, which freed up all of their M4s to go to Kfir and the other homefront units. Non-combat soldiers are now being issued the A1s that our guys were issued in 07 at the start of basic training.

What barrel length is this?
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Probably 13. That guy's a reservist. His vest was probably made in his unit's amlachia (tailor...before MOLLE came to the IDF every company had a sewing machine).

Can you buy surplus stuff like in the us?

Or is it so warn out that nothing is worth selling?

13.  A 20 inch barrel chopped right at the gas port, with parts repositioned and new gas port

drilled.

https://bpullignwolnet.dotster.com/retroblackrifle/ModGde/4nGde/IsraeliMenusar.html

I want to have my IDF clone as close as possible. Would these be the right rear sites?

Or is it close enough?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IMI-Gen-2-Metal-Folding-Rear-Sight/253961170313?hash=item3b2143ed89:g:Ig4AAOSw0rRbey6~

Willmar posted this a few pages back
Looks like Troy

Most common BUIS I saw was the ARMS 71.

My buddy Amram's old rifle (funny how it got around...someone else actually posted this in another thread). Note - he was a lefty, check the ambi charging handle.

The grip is cca and not fab defense, is that common?

Definitely. The light on his rifle is a personally owned Fenix light. For a lot of the Israelis, they'll insist that "you shouldn't spend money on anything for the Army." (for military service) to include weapon accessories, things like that. Most of the foreign Soldiers had a much different attitude...if it makes us perform our job better, we were willing to buy it.

If you wanted your own gear, you had a few options. The easiest was to guy to a Ricochet store somewhere in Israel, and they sell a lot of different Israeli-made weapons accessories and gear. The other option at the time was to get friends and family to send it to you but that got sketchy with the ITAR restricted stuff like lasers or anything related to NV, especially since a lot of the guys didn't really know the rules surrounding this stuff. The best option, but the least convenient, was to buy it yourself in the US and bring it with you. Foreign Soldiers are given a set period of time to visit their families (it's called meuchedet, may-you-ched-det) so those usually turn into shopping sprees for anybody and everybody who wants gear. Ended up bringing back like 15 multi tools, a bunch of lights, and some field knives. I did bump into an American guy in a different brigade who was running an EOtech on his rifle...that was a shock lol. Usually units are really tight about things like optics and vests (mainly for IFF reasons).

Most of the stuff the Israelis carried was hand-me-down stuff they got from their friends or other guys in the unit who were going into the reserves. You could justify literally anything on an IDF working gun based on the fact that people just cobble shit together.

Any weapon accessory there is kinda viewed as pimp sauce...they call it "wasach," stuff that makes you look cool.

well, there sure is a lot of "wasach" to go around here on arfcom, lots.  funny.  might become an established phrase here...

How real is this https://zahal.org/product/zahal-idf-m4-m16-clone-set/

On the M4 being held by the crouching soldier...
Are my eyes playing tricks on me, or is that a waffle stock with the sling attachment area cut/filed off (so as to resemble a N1 stock)?

I think it is just covered with gear and clothing.

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Yes !!

i concur

Sshhwwaannngg !

kwg

Finally got one, long story short it was a bubba’d Colt 6520 with a bunch of accessories that I got super cheap from a coworker. After I sold off everything I didn’t want and replaced the upper receiver (Windham) and stock assembly (M&A) it ended up costing me nothing. At 5lb 10oz it feels like a toy.

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How are these? I was thinking about getting one.

My 6520 clone. The complete upper and stock assembly is Colt. I picked up a complete 6520 lower, but the color didn’t match this upper. Using it for a 723 clone.



My 723 clone with the 6520 lower due to the close color match.

Upper seems really nice, anodizing matches pretty close to the Colt lower, rear sight has a normal and “L” marked aperture, barrel install was a breeze and M4 extensions line up

Didn't wanna chop down a Colt A1 20" and have to deal with drilling new gas port plus slots for the FSB pins so I chopped down a 6520 barrel instead. 13" oal from bottom of the barrel extension to top of the crown and opened the gas port up to 0.067". Now I can shoot M855 or Mk262 and I'm planning on swapping the A1 flash hider out for a KAC NT4 unit

what was the gas port measurement before you opened it up ?

when i did my "menusar" clone i just cut down a 6720 barrel and left the gas port alone , i didn't get a chance to measure it

pic thread

@1iviper it was 0.062” before. I’m not gonna shoot low powered steel cases through it but I don’t want it to short stroke on me either if shtf haha. I wanted to go 0.066” but there was no drill bit in that size..

thanks man , can't wait to see what you build with that barrel

It’s pretty much gonna be exactly yours

Hello all
I am considering building an IDF clone and I was wondering about the barrel twist on the rifles that wear the M16A1 upper..  It appears they are older rifles so I am speculating they have a 14.5 inch barrel with a 1/12 twist.  Does anyone have any experience with these rifles and am I wrong or right about this ??
kwg

Got my answer.  Starting on page 12 of this thread.

kwg

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Going for Colt 653 clone, but I guess IDF look as much as the others.

As much as I can tell- The "IDF look" is a AR carbine that has that well worn finish.  :O)

My humble offering.


HEAT-ish 733 by SoloDallas, on Flickr


727-ish by SoloDallas, on Flickr

@BrandonP

Which accessories brand would you say is used the most in Israel? Seems as though there's a lot more CAA than Tdi or Fab Defense, just judging on pictures.

Clean.  You guys take and post some great pics

Thank you Sir!
Another KISS-ish with vintage light.


Colt 6520 by SoloDallas, on Flickr

I think you're right though I did see all 3 at ricochet (big chain outdoors/ tactical store in israel). That may have changed in the last 10 years since all infantry units started to move toward the tavor.

Has anybody found were by the stocks that yet

Does that have a single or double heat shield ?

It isn't an AR but it is a carbine.



Israel; a nation born from and a people forged by conflict, bloodshed, and hardship. Originally a backwater in the Ottoman Empire and later a crucial part of the British Empire. The region we know today as the Nation of Israel was born on May 14, 1948. But how did that happen? Well, let's go back a couple of years.

At the end of World War II, the British Empire was crumbling. They were economically ruined from the war and didn't have the political or economic strength to keep their colonies in check.  The Yishuv (Jewish residents of the area prior to the creation of Israeli State) in an attempt to strengthen home rule actively recruited and smuggled European Jews fleeing the horrors after the Holocaust. Many tried to reach Palestine but many were turned away or rounded up and placed in detention camps in Atlit and Cyprus by the British Government since the Empire wanted to keep the peace in the region.

Prior to WWII and after, Jewish immigration to the region was a contentious issue for the British since the local Arab populations were not in favor of more Jewish neighbors. Even though Jews assisted the British to conquer the area from the Ottomans even even helped suppress Arab revolt against British rule in the 1920s. By the immediate post war period, the Crown simply wanted peace in the region. The Jews in Europe and in the Holy Land wanted home rule and a place to call their own.

Two groups, the Haganah and the Irgun (the forerunners to the Israeli Defense Forces) launched an attack on the British administrative headquarters for Palestine on July 22, 1946. A total of 91 people of various nationalities were killed, 46 were injured, and the location was also he site of the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces in Palestine and Transjordan.

At the time, it was considered one of the "most lethal terrorist incidents of the twentieth century." The end result was that in 1947, the British announced they would withdraw from Palestine in a short time frame, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews. The newly formed United Nations stepped in and attempted to split the region between Jewish and Arab residents. On May 15, 1948;  the armies of four Arab countries (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq) entered what had been British Mandatory Palestine, launching the 1948 ArabIsraeli War.

A hard and brutal conflict was fought. But the end result was Israeli victory.



The newly formed Israeli government was short on funds and worse, short on arms. Prior to the establishment of the IDF, the Haganah and the Irgun used whatever they could get their hands on. British Enfields, American M1 Carbines, Italian Carcanos, etc. They'd buy them from friendly supporters, smuggle them in, and out right steal them if they had to. The war thought them an important lesson. They needed to standardize.

Being that the newly formed nation was also poor at the time, they couldn't go and buy the upcoming latest and greatest designs just yet. But this was the later 1940s. Europe was awash in arms, German 98k Mausers to be exact. The Germans in their short lived expansionist era set up a number of arms plants in the occupied territories scattered across Europe.

One of the largest was in Czechoslovakia. A nation with a long history of arms production,  Czechoslovakia was converted to crank out Masuers for the Third Reich. After the war, the Czechs and Slovaks were hurting for work and had an ample supply of parts, machinery, and the skilled labor to make rifles. Thus, a business deal was struck and the rest is history.



Israel bought rifles from Czechoslovakia and other European nations through surplus sales and contracted with FN Herstal of Belgium to make brand new Masuers. By 1954-1955, Israeli was looking to update their front-line units with FN's new darling, the FN FAL. Israel had an issue. What to do with the thousands of Masuers and 7.92x57mm ammo they had? They could keep them original and have two separate supply lines of arms and munitions to equip front-line troops and reservists or they could convert the Mausers to 7.62x51mm NATO and make ammunition logistics far easier. They went with the logical answer. They converted the Mausers of course! Starting in 1956 and not officially ending until the cessation of hostilities of the 1973 Yom Kippur War.



Israeli converted Masuers were reworked from top to bottom. The rifles were stripped down to their basic components and anything not serviceable was thrown away. Keeping rifles original by serial number was not a concern for the IDF. Everything was literally simply thrown into large parts bins and when rifles were being rebuilt, parts were pulled and rifles were assembled. In fact, every collector guide states that if you run across a serial matching Israeli Mauser. It is a fake. The Bolt and Receiver might match, but everything else sure won't.



The Israelis made brand new barrels, new internal magazines, and new front sights due to the different ballistics with the 7.62x51mm NATO. If the stock was not serviceable, newly manufactured breechwood ones were used. The Israelis also scrapped the cleaning rod and the new stocks didn't even have a provision for them since the IDF issued a pull through cleaning kit for the FN FAL.



IDF Issued Cleaning Kit.



A common myth associated with the Israeli Mausers is that the IDF purposefully struck any Waffenamt markings, thus purifying the rifle of any Nazi connection. This isn't the case. A number of WaA markings are found intact on my rifle and others I've seen and handled. But one fact that is true, all converted Masuers had 7.62 marked on the receiver to clearly alert the shooter that the gun is not chambered in the older 7.92x57mm.





The Israeli Masuer saw service in the Israeli War of Independence of 1948, the 19511956 Retribution Operations,the Suez Campaign of 1956, the Six Day War of 1967, and finally the Yom Kippur War of 1973.



In the Six Day War, the FN FAL was the front-line standard for the IDF, but the numerous reservists called to active duty were issued the Masuers. This was the last large scale use of the Mauser. to see combat action. It served with distinction alongside the FN FAL and Uzi SMG.


IDF soldier with FN FAL.


IDF in combat with Mauser Rifle.


IDF in combat with Mauser Rifle.


IDF at the Western Wall wih Uzi SMG.

By 1973 and the Yom Kippur War, the Masuer was only assigned to rear communication specialists as a defensive weapon. After the war, they were pulled from service and mostly given to Guatemala as military aid. Israel and Guatemala have always had a close relationship due to the small Central American county being the tie breaking vote to admit Israel into the United Nations. The Guatemalans rode the Masuers hard and put them away wet. You can tell an Israeli surplussed gun versus a Guatemalan one due to the condition.


Typical Guatemalan Condition

My rifle is a Czech built gun. With a 1944 dated receiver and a near mint re-arsenal overhaul. I got mine around the 1999/2000 time frame. In fact it was the first gun I purchased with my own money. In fact, I got mine at the Fort Lauderdale Gun Show, the very one the Gun Grabbers recently shut down. I worked hard and saved up my pennies for a military grade rifle in .30-06 Springfield or .308 Winchester. I was hankering a M1903 and ran across one at a table. The vendor had it priced at $300 and poor teenage me couldn't afford it. I saw plenty of Mausers but didn't want one since they were in 7.92x57mm and I didn't want to buy and stockpile another chambering. But luck shined upon me, the vendor that had the M1903 also had an Israeli Mauser for $225 and was willing throw in 500rds of surplus 7.62 NATO. I had a budget of $250 and was set. There was a loud BANG! when wallet broke the sound barrier. I took the rifle home and since then I've enjoyed it.

Between my time when I reenacted WWII Partisan or took part in local rifle matches. My Mauser trucked right along. As I grew older, my Mauser migrated from the front of my safe to the back. But but it was never forgotten. A real treat with my Mauser happened with an elderly neighbor I had in Miami. He was a veteran of the 1948 Israeli War and retired from the IDF right before the Six Day War and moved to sunny South Florida. We always saw me loading up and going to the range and asked one day what I had. When he saw the Mauser, he suddenly opened up and went back to being a young man in the IDF fighting for Israel's freedom. He told me about how he was tired, scared, and hungry. But full of hope and pride with the belief that his sacrifice would be for the betterment of his people. I could tell with the glint in his eyes that he remembered carrying a Mauser just like mine and sure enough. He remembered when he shot it at the range.



In the end, these rifles are a gem to have. They tell a story of hardship, struggle, and rebirth. A rifle originally made by a government set to eradicate a specific people were then used by those people to gain independence and then used to secure their freedom. It really is an amazing story and they proudly belong in anyone's armory of liberty. Mine sure is a beaut and a hell of a shooter. If you run across a nice conditioned Israeli Masuer, give her a good home and some range time. You'll be surprised with a smile. Trust me.



To all of our Jewish members in America, Israel, and across the world.  חנוכה שמח – Happy Hanukkah!

Very cool post!

Good read!

Awesomeness