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Posted: 3/21/2018 7:21:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Quarterbore][Edited]
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Colt Expanse Lower Story:
As I assume many know, Colt created the Expanse line to compete with the low cost AR-15s that are on the market. To do this they created what I think most of us thought was a subdivision of Colt named Colt Competition. Many of these Colt Expanse models were noted to be built from various parts that were often not Colt parts at all or certainly not made like any Colt Parts made before and with distinct markings or characteristics that look like generic AR parts suppliers.  Failed To Load Title Still, the effort worked as these cheaper Colts sold great and hundreds of thousands were sold at great prices. After Trump won the election gun sales dropped like a lead brick and even the sales of these cheap Colt Expanses took a huge hit. Colt tried to cut their losses and reduce the supply of these Expanse Lowers and that was when it first became obvious that the Colt Expanse made by Colt Competion wasn’t really a Colt Company as the company that was making these sued Colt for breach of Contract. Months to at most a year later and now the company that was making these Expanse rifles is bankrupt but this is where the story starts getting interesting. If you have paid attention, late last year (2017) Brownells had Colt Marked AR-15 receivers and lowers that had Colt markings engraved like the Expanse models. I missed those but later guys and at least one shop on Florida we’re building these as Colt AR-15 pistols which is unique as previously Colt never sold receivers alone! This past mont, CDNN (Feb 2018] also posted some lowers with the same markings and having missed the Brownells opportunity I snagged one the moment I saw it listed. Note, they are not selling them now but read on as this story gets better! Anyways, I received my lower and had it transferred to me on my 4473 as a receiver (it had a stock but without an upper it can’t be a rifle - caliber, barrel length, and cant shoot) so I called late last Friday and got a reply that these were shipped as lowers and could be built as a pistol but to get more info to call back Monday as I was after a letter. When I called back Monday morning I gave the serial number to Colt Customer Service and the serial number was not in his system. He had to put me on hold a few times as he checked records and he finally came back with a shocking reply. He said that the lower was not made by Colt and that the company that made them is no longer is business. He also said that both Brownells and CDNN who were selling these as Colt Manufactured and Assembled lowers were told to stop doing so. I’ve also read that Colt Competion who was making these Colt Expanse Rifles had a huge inventory of left over parts. So, what’s going on here? My guess is the company that owned Colt Competion is selling off their extra parts and the various deals that Brownells and CDNN has and had going are these left overs! I still built my lower as an AR-15 pistol as while I would have liked to have documentation to support it was shipped as a receiver from the factory it is still the ONLY way so am likely to ever be able to get a Colt Marked AR-15 Pistol! This is as crazy as trying to figure out the various Blue Label colts of the late 80s and 90s! Here are a bunch of supporting links Colt Expanse not real Colts Story http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/07/14/colt-sued-half-million-dollars-expanse-production-cutbacks/ This article also refers to the unfinished rifles, which is what was being sold off but based on what the Colt guy said may be stopping too http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/03/robert-farago/colt-competition-goes-business-first-many/ See this thread in the ARFCOM Archives too: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Fake_Colt_ARs_/5-1942801/ Here is my Lower I bought from CDNN 
Compare the markings to the various Expanse rifles out there - here is a Gunbroker Link https://www.gunbroker.com/item/754249994 Again, Colt says my lower is NOT a Colt Lower and wasn’t made by them but Gun Fans have been saying that for a while! Finally, a tidbit that was posted on a thread elsewhere where I tried to start compiling this.... Chazkat is the manufacturer, with the license held by Bold, which then sold all of this to Prestige Capital, which then sued Colt. http://www.guns.com/2017/07/12/colt-faces-500k-breach-of-contract-suit-after-reducing-production-run/ |
My guns are not worth your life, but freedom and liberty are worth mine
| I purchased a complete lower from Brownells. It is clearly roll marked do to the barely there L. I seriously doubt that my lower was not made by Colt. Your lower is engraved, mine, and many others are not. I think that many of the complete lowers sold by Brownells are blems, and Colt dumped them to get rid of them. |
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Good write up, thank you.
Last year, I attempted to get confirmation from a retailer that the Colt BCG and other parts they were selling were genuine Colt military parts, and NOT Expanse. They insisted they were real Colt military. They even had a stock web image showing a "C" marked carrier. Upon receipt, they were "genuine fakes" (Colt Expanse parts.) I admit that I expected this due to their price, and the fact that they were even available outside of a very few traditional suppliers of real Colt military parts. I think Colt unnecessarily diluted their brand and caused consumer (and retailer) confusion by not structuring a more clear delineation of the two levels of products. |
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The fact that Colt Competition wasn't really part of Colt (they were manufactured under license with a marking variance by Bold Ideas Texas) was pretty well known. I have a Colt Competition lower receiver that's engraved on the right side with "LICENSED PRODUCT OF NCHC B/I TE*AS".
Personally, I doubt that most of the lowers sold by Brownells and CDNN are Bold Ideas-manufactured lowers. As already noted, many (most?) of those are rollmarked (see the faint Os and Ls on those) and I've never seen anything manufactured by Bold Ideas Texas with a rollmark. I also doubt that the receivers are Colt "blems" as Colt doesn't seem to consider anything a "blem". 
I'm not sure that I would consider Colt's serial number lookup (even coming from an employee) as definitive. Historically, there have been gaps in information, even with newer production. |
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Originally Posted By PapaFoxtrot:
Good write up, thank you. Last year, I attempted to get confirmation from a retailer that the Colt BCG and other parts they were selling were genuine Colt military parts, and NOT Expanse. They insisted they were real Colt military. They even had a stock web image showing a "C" marked carrier. Upon receipt, they were "genuine fakes" (Colt Expanse parts.) I admit that I expected this due to their price, and the fact that they were even available outside of a very few traditional suppliers of real Colt military parts. I think Colt unnecessarily diluted their brand and caused consumer (and retailer) confusion by not structuring a more clear delineation of the two levels of products. |
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Originally Posted By macloud:
I purchased a complete lower from Brownells. It is clearly roll marked do to the barely there L. I seriously doubt that my lower was not made by Colt. Your lower is engraved, mine, and many others are not. I think that many of the complete lowers sold by Brownells are blems, and Colt dumped them to get rid of them. ETA - My two lowers have the same serial number prefix as my 6920 Trooper. ETA - Ratworx was selling some on Gunbroker a little while back, too. They were listed as genuine Colt lowers. Like the ones I received from Brownell's, they were in genuine white Colt boxes with labels. OP, how was yours packaged? |
NorCal's official nickname: Booker
Nothing lasts forever but old Fords and a natural stone
Nothing lasts forever but old Fords and a natural stone
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The "Colt Competition" and "Colt Sporting" lowers were obviously manufactured much differently than the typical Colt lowers, and the first (and correct) suspicion is that they were made by someone else. Some of them even had integral triggerguards, like the "closed ear" Andersons. The M4 CARBINE marked lower in the OP, though, is not one of those, and looks like a legit Colt lower in every way- to the extent that I believe it's a real Colt lower and whoever you had on the phone was incorrect.
I didn't watch the video, I tried but the guy's "Uh" and "Umm" seemed to overpower anything else he had to say. |
˙ǝuılƃıs ʎɯ uı ʇnd oʇ ɹǝʌǝlɔ ƃuıɥʇʎuɐ ɟo ʞuıɥʇ ʇ,uɐɔ I
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This wouldn't be the first time a customer service agent was wrong. It appears to me you are hanging your whole theory on one customer service agent not being able to find it at the time. Colt has multiple FFL's for different subsidiaries. Maybe they weren't looking in the right spot.
There are basically 3 ways that someone other then Colt can manufacture one with Colts name on it. Licence the trademark. This is like the the Umarex 22's. It still has Umarex's name on it and place of manufacture and just uses a colt trademark. Colt competition also fell under this category. A forgery. An illegally made lower that is in violation of a bunch of ATF laws, trademark laws etc. Non commercial use is debatable such as having your 80% lower engraved like a Colt for a clone. Certainly for the engraver to take money for it, they are susceptible to being sued like those cake decorators that get sued for putting Disney characters on kids birthday cakes. Under a manufacturing variance. In which case these lowers, even if manufactured by someone else need to be on Colt's books. Given that these lowers are marked Colt Defense and Hartford. They are on Colt's books. Expanse lowers are on Colt's Books. If these came from the defunct "Bold Ideas" out of Texas that is another question. Several physical factors separate them for the majority of expanse lowers. The Brownells ones came in colt boxes with a colt label and part number. These lowers have excess flashing behind the pistol grip and in the trigger guard which the expanse ones lack. Expanse lowers that were not manufactured by Colt had integral trigger guards. Expanse lowers not assembled by colt didn't use the chalky white pistol grips. Expanse lowers not made by colt had a CE serial Number prefix Expanse lowers not assembled by colt had a non standard Hammer Expanse lowers not assembled by colt had cut threads on the receiver extension as opposed to rolled and lacked the dry film lubricant. Expanse lowers not assembled by Colt used non-cadmium plated detents. Etc., Etc. Early expanse lowers were just like 6920 lowers including all internal components. Then there was ones like in your video where only the lower was supplied by colt. Finally there was the ones where not even the lower was supplied by colt and it had integral trigger guards etc. The 5 I have from Brownells came in Colt Boxes marked spare lower with Colt Labels and I confirmed (for only 1 of them) with Colt that they were shipped as complete lowers to Brownells and was never an assembled rifle (I wanted to make a pistol while waiting on a tax stamp). |
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I bought one of the Brownells “C” series serial numbered complete lowers. It came in the Colt box, with the serial number sticker. After it arrived, I called Colt to ask about it’s status as a lower or rifle. The Colt rep took my serial number, confirmed that it was indeed manufactured by Colt, and told me that there was a run of lowers that were sold to Brownells. The rep went on to say that it was a 6920, and not a contracted piece.
He said they had never been assembled as a rifle, and that I was gtg to make a pistol from it. I’m satisfied with the purchase. |
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Originally Posted By ajacobs:
This wouldn't be the first time a customer service agent was wrong. It appears to me you are hanging your whole theory on one customer service agent not being able to find it at the time. Colt has multiple FFL's for different subsidiaries. Maybe they weren't looking in the right spot. There are basically 3 ways that someone other then Colt can manufacture one with Colts name on it. Licence the trademark. This is like the the Umarex 22's. It still has Umarex's name on it and place of manufacture and just uses a colt trademark. A forgery. An illegally made lower that is in violation of a bunch of ATF laws, trademark laws etc. Non commercial use is debatable such as having your 80% lower engraved like a Colt for a clone. Certainly for the engraver to take money for it, they are susceptible to being sued like those cake decorators that get sued for putting Disney characters on kids birthday cakes. Under a manufacturing variance. In which case these lowers, even if manufactured by someone else need to be on Colt's books. Given that these lowers are marked Colt Defense and Hartford. They are on Colt's books. Expanse lowers are on Colt's Books. Several physical factors separate them for the majority of expanse lowers. The Brownells ones came in colt boxes with a colt label and part number. These lowers have excess flashing behind the pistol grip and in the trigger guard which the expanse ones lack. Expanse lowers that were not manufactured by Colt had integral trigger guards. Expanse lowers not assembled by colt didn't use the chalky white pistol grips. Expanse lowers not made by colt had a CE serial Number prefix Expanse lowers not assembled by colt had a non standard Hammer Expanse lowers not assembled by colt had cut threads on the receiver extension as opposed to rolled and lacked the dry film lubricant. Expanse lowers not assembled by Colt used non-cadmium plated detents. Etc., Etc. If these came from the defunct "Bold Ideas" out of Texas that is another question. Early expanse lowers were just like 6920 lowers. The 5 I have from Brownells came in Colt Boxes marked spare lower with Colt Labels and I confirmed (for only 1 of them) with Colt that they were shipped as complete lowers to Brownells and was never an assembled rifle (I wanted to make a pistol while waiting on a tax stamp). I would be suspect of ANYTHING you buy from CDNN. Brownells isn't in the business of ripping people off or being deceptive in any way. I bought 4 of the Brownells lowers, and they have light Roll marks just like my Trooper as well. They are packaged in Colt Branded packaging and I have no doubt they are manufactured by Colt. I bet the employee couldn't "find" them in the system because they are classified as something else...as well they should be. @brownells Please get in here and clear this up. |
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Originally Posted By purevl2: I'm happy for the OP's work on this, but the part in bold. We have been victim to erroneous information FROM COLT EMPLOYEES, that was later rectified by another Colt Employee. I would be suspect of ANYTHING you buy from CDNN. Brownells isn't in the business of ripping people off or being deceptive in any way. I bought 4 of the Brownells lowers, and they have light Roll marks just like my Trooper as well. They are packaged in Colt Branded packaging and I have no doubt they are manufactured by Colt. I bet the employee couldn't "find" them in the system because they are classified as something else...as well they should be. @brownells Please get in here and clear this up. |
NorCal's official nickname: Booker
Nothing lasts forever but old Fords and a natural stone
Nothing lasts forever but old Fords and a natural stone
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Fwiw, there is a company in Baltimore that has made more than 900,000 lowers for Colt, dating back decades and including for US military contract Colt rifles.
It's a high quality manufacturer, and the CEO told me that they never had a lower rejected by Colt or the US (though their own QC rejected several.) |
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I’ll call Colt again to see if I get a different answer. I can’t sit on hold for hours today but perhaps tomorrow. First call I was on hold 2hrs and got someone close to end of their day. Second time it took an hour and a half in the morning. Again, I am just trying to pull this history together as the information is sort of current. In 5 or 10 years it will not be as easy to compile! |
My guns are not worth your life, but freedom and liberty are worth mine
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All of the Colt Lowers sold by Brownells were purchased directly from Colt and are genuine Colt products.
Colt Lowers Here |
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accessories and gunsmith tools
www.brownells.com
800-741-0015
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Originally Posted By Brownells:
All of the Colt Lowers sold by Brownells were purchased directly from Colt and are genuine Colt products. Colt Lowers Here 
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Code word is Yellow Umbrella.
| There really shouldn't have been any doubt the lowers from Brownells were genuine Colt: all the parts, packaging and rollmarks were as they should be. Whether they were blems, seconds or something else, that is certainly open for debate. The lower in the OP has several issues that at the very least indicate it isn't assembled by Colt. One, the magazine catch isn't a proper Colt two piece, add to that the 6 position and not 4 position RE and the A2 grip that definitely isn't a Colt (that shine is a dead giveaway). The lower clearly wasn't assembled with Colt parts. Now, it's possible the lower itself is genuine and was supplied by Colt to be assembled elsewhere, but it certainly doesn't appear to be a factory complete Colt lower. |
Practice, the master of all things. - Augustus
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I agree, and this is interesting and confusing. I have bought the parts to update my non-Colt looking parts but I haven’t changed them yet as I try to figure the story out. Thanks to Brownells for posting! |
My guns are not worth your life, but freedom and liberty are worth mine
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Originally Posted By krdt:
...The lower in the OP has several issues that at the very least indicate it isn't assembled by Colt. One, the magazine catch isn't a proper Colt two piece, add to that the 6 position and not 4 position RE and the A2 grip that definitely isn't a Colt (that shine is a dead giveaway). The lower clearly wasn't assembled with Colt parts. Now, it's possible the lower itself is genuine and was supplied by Colt to be assembled elsewhere, but it certainly doesn't appear to be a factory complete Colt lower. 
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˙ǝuılƃıs ʎɯ uı ʇnd oʇ ɹǝʌǝlɔ ƃuıɥʇʎuɐ ɟo ʞuıɥʇ ʇ,uɐɔ I
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Originally Posted By TREETOP:
It also didn’t come from Brownells. Originally Posted By TREETOP:
Originally Posted By krdt:
...The lower in the OP has several issues that at the very least indicate it isn't assembled by Colt. One, the magazine catch isn't a proper Colt two piece, add to that the 6 position and not 4 position RE and the A2 grip that definitely isn't a Colt (that shine is a dead giveaway). The lower clearly wasn't assembled with Colt parts. Now, it's possible the lower itself is genuine and was supplied by Colt to be assembled elsewhere, but it certainly doesn't appear to be a factory complete Colt lower. |
Practice, the master of all things. - Augustus
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Originally Posted By Quarterbore:
Well, let’s be fair the markings on some from Brownells are the same. The serial prefixes are the same too. Either way, I’m not kicking it out of the safe  Anyway, assuming that's an actual rollmark on your lower and not engraved, then it's very likely a genuine Colt lower, just not genuine Colt parts. It actually does look engraved to me, but I'm not an expert enough to say for certain without actually looking at it in person. Suffice to say, if the Colt logo, Pony and M4 Carbine are engraved and not rollmarked, that's not a good sign. |
Practice, the master of all things. - Augustus
| I am just curious if the Colt roll marks are now properly stamped and not missing parts of the O and L in Colt. |
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Thomas Jefferson
If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.
- Thomas Jefferson
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Figured I'd drop this here as well, seeing as alot of the "Expanse " series guns used LE prefix SNs.
LE vs CR prefix Colt lower receivers |
Code word is Yellow Umbrella.
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I would guess Colt Competition sold tens of thousands of ARs at best and not anywhere near 100 thousand...
I got an early Expanse and was happy what with what I got for the price I paid. I SBR'd the lower and had the barrel chopped to 12.5" for another SBR project and it seems to be a good shooter but haven't really wrung it out yet. Mine is LE S/N with dot matrix code box. However, some of the later expanses started to get a big sketchy. |
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Originally Posted By Brownells:
All of the Colt Lowers sold by Brownells were purchased directly from Colt and are genuine Colt products. Colt Lowers Here Is there any truth to what another vendor posted about Colt not selling lower receivers any more or are you still receiving lowers? P.S. Throw those bad boys back on a flash $199 sale, please. I'd like to grab another one. Or two. Ish. :D |
NorCal's official nickname: Booker
Nothing lasts forever but old Fords and a natural stone
Nothing lasts forever but old Fords and a natural stone
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Originally Posted By SEK7562:
Adcor. Originally Posted By SEK7562:
Originally Posted By JPK:
Fwiw, there is a company in Baltimore that has made more than 900,000 lowers for Colt, dating back decades and including for US military contract Colt rifles. It's a high quality manufacturer, and the CEO told me that they never had a lower rejected by Colt or the US (though their own QC rejected several.) |
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Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
@Brownells Is there any truth to what another vendor posted about Colt not selling lower receivers any more or are you still receiving lowers? P.S. Throw those bad boys back on a flash $199 sale, please. I'd like to grab another one. Or two. Ish. :D |
World's largest supplier of firearms
accessories and gunsmith tools
www.brownells.com
800-741-0015
accessories and gunsmith tools
www.brownells.com
800-741-0015
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Originally Posted By big_sti:
verified my 6920 I bought from cdnn recently, they bought it as a oem1 and put a cheap stock and handguard on it. Of course they didn't mention that anywhere. |
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Interesting! My two Exapanses from a couple years ago have lowers that, at least visually, match my 6920 100%. They're very different than the one in OPs photo. IIRC Colt supplied the lowers but that may have changed at some point.
ETA: Is that roll mark milled in? |
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Originally Posted By Reiko:
Interesting! My two Exapanses from a couple years ago have lowers that, at least visually, match my 6920 100%. They're very different than the one in OPs photo. IIRC Colt supplied the lowers but that may have changed at some point. ETA: Is that roll mark milled in? |
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Originally Posted By uniform64:
Not an expert, but that looks too uniform for a roll mark Originally Posted By uniform64:
Originally Posted By Reiko:
Interesting! My two Exapanses from a couple years ago have lowers that, at least visually, match my 6920 100%. They're very different than the one in OPs photo. IIRC Colt supplied the lowers but that may have changed at some point. ETA: Is that roll mark milled in? The only "bad" part is the selector markings, IMO. |
Code word is Yellow Umbrella.
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Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Colt always mills them off civilian rifles. Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Why are the selector stops milled off? Or just not present in the first place? 
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Code word is Yellow Umbrella.
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Originally Posted By JPK:
Fwiw, there is a company in Baltimore that has made more than 900,000 lowers for Colt, dating back decades and including for US military contract Colt rifles. It's a high quality manufacturer, and the CEO told me that they never had a lower rejected by Colt or the US (though their own QC rejected several.) ETA: beat. Been to their facility. |
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| I bought an expanse ce2000 over a year ago and a brownells lower both were roll marked LE6920 lowers. |
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Certified Glock Armorer
No step on snek!
"There is only one god, and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to Death: 'Not today'."
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Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
And I hate them for that. Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Why are the selector stops milled off? Or just not present in the first place? 
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Originally Posted By TREETOP:
The "Colt Competition" and "Colt Sporting" lowers were obviously manufactured much differently than the typical Colt lowers, and the first (and correct) suspicion is that they were made by someone else. Some of them even had integral triggerguards, like the "closed ear" Andersons. The M4 CARBINE marked lower in the OP, though, is not one of those, and looks like a legit Colt lower in every way- to the extent that I believe it's a real Colt lower and whoever you had on the phone was incorrect. I didn't watch the video, I tried but the guy's "Uh" and "Umm" seemed to overpower anything else he had to say. |
"Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem."
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Originally Posted By 556Cliff:
That's one of the things I like. Originally Posted By 556Cliff:
Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Why are the selector stops milled off? Or just not present in the first place? |
Code word is Yellow Umbrella.
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Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Really? Curious as to why? Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Originally Posted By 556Cliff:
Originally Posted By Tigwelder1971:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
Why are the selector stops milled off? Or just not present in the first place? Does it matter? I doubt it. 
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Originally Posted By 556Cliff: Because with the selector stops out of the way I can clamp the lower in the Vise (between padded jaws of course) about a 1/4 inch closer up to the receiver extension boss when removing or installing receiver extensions. Does it matter? I doubt it. |
Code word is Yellow Umbrella.
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