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High round count AR/M4's (over 100,000 rounds) and how they have handled on our range (Page 7 of 43)
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Originally Posted By samuse:
Y'all act like this is some sort of a shocker. Piston guns go tits-up at EVERY carbine class I've been to that had piston guns. The only one I ever saw run like it should was Jason Falla's real-deal 416. Originally Posted By samuse:
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
I would love to hear if/how the PWS piston system failed you, if you ever decide to divulge it. I felt vindicated by your high round count AK thread and how well the WASRs did--but then you went and hurt my AR pride by telling me that all your piston guns broke. Great thread(s), sir. Y'all act like this is some sort of a shocker. Piston guns go tits-up at EVERY carbine class I've been to that had piston guns. The only one I ever saw run like it should was Jason Falla's real-deal 416. I did a carbine class with an Adams 11.5" a couple months ago. Ran like a sewing machine. <shrug> |
I was busy last night. I'm trying to crank a few out every evening, sheesh -XCRmonger
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Originally Posted By dillehayd:
I did a carbine class with an Adams 11.5" a couple months ago. Ran like a sewing machine. <shrug> Originally Posted By dillehayd:
Originally Posted By samuse:
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
I would love to hear if/how the PWS piston system failed you, if you ever decide to divulge it. I felt vindicated by your high round count AK thread and how well the WASRs did--but then you went and hurt my AR pride by telling me that all your piston guns broke. Great thread(s), sir. Y'all act like this is some sort of a shocker. Piston guns go tits-up at EVERY carbine class I've been to that had piston guns. The only one I ever saw run like it should was Jason Falla's real-deal 416. I did a carbine class with an Adams 11.5" a couple months ago. Ran like a sewing machine. <shrug> Some people have all the luck ........ Honestly i've seen two a lwrc (5 day high round count) and a Barret(2 day 1600 rnds~)make it through classes. Seen 7-8 more fail in various courses. A mod on this forum gets mad every time i dog taurus handguns says they go thousands of rounds without issue make it through every class etc etc..... I only know a few people in the firearms training world they all tell me the same thing they've never seen one make it through a two day class. Experiences very with small sample sizes. Why this thread is so good the volume of rnds they are putting downrange tells something about how what they are using holds up. |
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Originally Posted By GHPorter:
What ABOUT piston guns is the failure point? THAT is what we're trying to get his comments on. Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By samuse:
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
I would love to hear if/how the PWS piston system failed you, if you ever decide to divulge it. I felt vindicated by your high round count AK thread and how well the WASRs did--but then you went and hurt my AR pride by telling me that all your piston guns broke. Great thread(s), sir. Y'all act like this is some sort of a shocker. Piston guns go tits-up at EVERY carbine class I've been to that had piston guns. The only one I ever saw run like it should was Jason Falla's real-deal 416. What ABOUT piston guns is the failure point? THAT is what we're trying to get his comments on. Pistons and rods have bent and cracked. Springs in the piston system have failed and roller cams on the failed cause the upper receiver to seize up. V/R Ron |
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Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Some people have all the luck ........ Honestly i've seen two a lwrc (5 day high round count) and a Barret(2 day 1600 rnds~)make it through classes. Seen 7-8 more fail in various courses. A mod on this forum gets mad every time i dog taurus handguns says they go thousands of rounds without issue make it through every class etc etc..... I only know a few people in the firearms training world they all tell me the same thing they've never seen one make it through a two day class. Experiences very with small sample sizes. Why this thread is so good the volume of rnds they are putting downrange tells something about how what they are using holds up. Originally Posted By acman145acp:
Originally Posted By dillehayd:
Originally Posted By samuse:
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
I would love to hear if/how the PWS piston system failed you, if you ever decide to divulge it. I felt vindicated by your high round count AK thread and how well the WASRs did--but then you went and hurt my AR pride by telling me that all your piston guns broke. Great thread(s), sir. Y'all act like this is some sort of a shocker. Piston guns go tits-up at EVERY carbine class I've been to that had piston guns. The only one I ever saw run like it should was Jason Falla's real-deal 416. I did a carbine class with an Adams 11.5" a couple months ago. Ran like a sewing machine. <shrug> Some people have all the luck ........ Honestly i've seen two a lwrc (5 day high round count) and a Barret(2 day 1600 rnds~)make it through classes. Seen 7-8 more fail in various courses. A mod on this forum gets mad every time i dog taurus handguns says they go thousands of rounds without issue make it through every class etc etc..... I only know a few people in the firearms training world they all tell me the same thing they've never seen one make it through a two day class. Experiences very with small sample sizes. Why this thread is so good the volume of rnds they are putting downrange tells something about how what they are using holds up. I was just kind of commenting on the blanket statement. I can certainly see why a piston setup, especially a short stroke like the Adams, would have problems in a FA setup and have no doubt the info posted above is accurate. I would guess that tuning down the cyclic rate would help a lot. I have to say though that shooting semi with a can makes the piston highly desirable for me. |
I was busy last night. I'm trying to crank a few out every evening, sheesh -XCRmonger
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Pistons and rods have bent and cracked. Springs in the piston system have failed and roller cams on the failed cause the upper receiver to seize up. V/R Ron Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By samuse:
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
I would love to hear if/how the PWS piston system failed you, if you ever decide to divulge it. I felt vindicated by your high round count AK thread and how well the WASRs did--but then you went and hurt my AR pride by telling me that all your piston guns broke. Great thread(s), sir. Y'all act like this is some sort of a shocker. Piston guns go tits-up at EVERY carbine class I've been to that had piston guns. The only one I ever saw run like it should was Jason Falla's real-deal 416. What ABOUT piston guns is the failure point? THAT is what we're trying to get his comments on. Pistons and rods have bent and cracked. Springs in the piston system have failed and roller cams on the failed cause the upper receiver to seize up. V/R Ron Thanks Ron. I know you are very busy. But if you ever get the chance, many of us would appreciate any pictures or details specifically on any PWS (Primary Weapons Systems) failures. Their piston guns are very popular, and many consider them to be superior to other piston systems (for a lot of reasons). Obviously, anything mechanical can and will eventually fail. But their long stroke system is fundamentally different than other piston system designs. I'm not sure what information in your post that I quoted is PWS specific (or if any of it is). I know PWS guns don't have roller cams or springs on their pistons. There is a spring on their bolt tail, but the PWS guns will actually run fine with it broken or removed. There are actually 2 different generations of PWS piston guns. The current generation has been out for a while, and I think it is significantly better than the first generation. But I am curious about both. Interestingly, both generations have nitrided barrels (under the brand name Isonite or Melonite or something else). So I and others are very curious how well these types of barrels have held up during the heavy use at your range. Again, thank you for some of the best posts ever on ar15.com. HighSpeedSteel |
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Originally Posted By dillehayd:
I have to say though that shooting semi with a can makes the piston highly desirable for me. I have shot a few, and quite honestly I was underwhelmed. I'll take a DI with an adjustable gas block myself. |
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Originally Posted By HighSpeedSteel: Thanks Ron. I know you are very busy. But if you ever get the chance, many of us would appreciate any pictures or details specifically on any PWS (Primary Weapons Systems) failures. Their piston guns are very popular, and many consider them to be superior to other piston systems (for a lot of reasons). Obviously, anything mechanical can and will eventually fail. But their long stroke system is fundamentally different than other piston system designs. I'm not sure what information in your post that I quoted is PWS specific (or if any of it is). I know PWS guns don't have roller cams or springs on their pistons. There is a spring on their bolt tail, but the PWS guns will actually run fine with it broken or removed. There are actually 2 different generations of PWS piston guns. The current generation has been out for a while, and I think it is significantly better than the first generation. But I am curious about both. Interestingly, both generations have nitrided barrels (under the brand name Isonite or Melonite or something else). So I and others are very curious how well these types of barrels have held up during the heavy use at your range. Again, thank you for some of the best posts ever on ar15.com. HighSpeedSteel Originally Posted By HighSpeedSteel: Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Originally Posted By GHPorter: What ABOUT piston guns is the failure point? THAT is what we're trying to get his comments on. Pistons and rods have bent and cracked. Springs in the piston system have failed and roller cams on the failed cause the upper receiver to seize up. V/R Ron Thanks Ron. I know you are very busy. But if you ever get the chance, many of us would appreciate any pictures or details specifically on any PWS (Primary Weapons Systems) failures. Their piston guns are very popular, and many consider them to be superior to other piston systems (for a lot of reasons). Obviously, anything mechanical can and will eventually fail. But their long stroke system is fundamentally different than other piston system designs. I'm not sure what information in your post that I quoted is PWS specific (or if any of it is). I know PWS guns don't have roller cams or springs on their pistons. There is a spring on their bolt tail, but the PWS guns will actually run fine with it broken or removed. There are actually 2 different generations of PWS piston guns. The current generation has been out for a while, and I think it is significantly better than the first generation. But I am curious about both. Interestingly, both generations have nitrided barrels (under the brand name Isonite or Melonite or something else). So I and others are very curious how well these types of barrels have held up during the heavy use at your range. Again, thank you for some of the best posts ever on ar15.com. HighSpeedSteel I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers.  |
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I'm all the more convinced this is an LGBT forum with a gun problem... .-EESmith
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Originally Posted By Valintino:
I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers.
Maybe, but telling the truth and facts are always a completely defensible position. HighSpeedSteel |
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Originally Posted By HighSpeedSteel:
Maybe, but telling the truth and facts are always a completely defensible position. HighSpeedSteel Originally Posted By HighSpeedSteel:
Originally Posted By Valintino:
I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers.
Maybe, but telling the truth and facts are always a completely defensible position. HighSpeedSteel If you need reassuring that pws is good or not maybe you should think of getting a different rifle that is reliable and proven like a colt, dd, kac, etc. |
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Here are two more components that broke yesterday. The first is a standard flash hider that cracked in five spots and the other, while not AR-related, is something that has happened to AR bolts.
The bolt is from a SCAR-L that has been on the line since day one (01 OCT 13). I think I've said it in this thread that I initially had no confidence in the SCAR, this weapon AK-47 of the West. It just runs and runs and made me a believer. I talked about the SCAR weapons with some the armorers yesterday and they couldn't believe how long the bolt on this weapon has lasted. We've had several barrel swaps and the bolt was perfectly fine. V/R Ron 
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It's interesting that you say the SCARs are holding up.
A buddy of mine used to do testing for a huge electro-optics company and didn't say a single positive thing about the SCAR. He even claimed the receivers would split and the guns would thrash themselves to death. Maybe it was the firing schedule? |
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Originally Posted By nchapa:
If you need reassuring that pws is good or not maybe you should think of getting a different rifle that is reliable and proven like a colt, dd, kac, etc. Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By HighSpeedSteel:
Originally Posted By Valintino:
I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers.
Maybe, but telling the truth and facts are always a completely defensible position. HighSpeedSteel If you need reassuring that pws is good or not maybe you should think of getting a different rifle that is reliable and proven like a colt, dd, kac, etc. I'm not sure why you think I am looking for reassurance (on PWS's or anyone else's guns) because I am not. I'm also not sure why you think I am thinking about getting a rifle based on the requested information, because I am not. I am simply seeking to get as much real world information as possible, and drawing my own conclusions. But I'd like specific concrete information because making assumptions based on generalities or very limited information, like you have done, leads to being wrong. By the way, "colt, dd, kac" all produce plenty of guns (and parts) with problems. People in this thread want PWS specific information because the guns are fundamentally different than other "piston guns", and there is not a lot of information out there about them. The little information out there about them is overwhelmingly positive. That's why I want to hear some *specific* negatives, not gross generalizations (about piston guns in general) or assumptions (that may be wrong). HighSpeedSteel |
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Originally Posted By HighSpeedSteel:
I'm not sure why you think I am looking for reassurance (on PWS's or anyone else's guns) because I am not. I'm also not sure why you think I am thinking about getting a rifle based on the requested information, because I am not. I am simply seeking to get as much real world information as possible, and drawing my own conclusions. But I'd like specific concrete information because making assumptions based on generalities or very limited information, like you have done, leads to being wrong. By the way, "colt, dd, kac" all produce plenty of guns (and parts) with problems. People in this thread want PWS specific information because the guns are fundamentally different than other "piston guns", and there is not a lot of information out there about them. The little information out there about them is overwhelmingly positive. That's why I want to hear some *specific* negatives, not gross generalizations (about piston guns in general) or assumptions (that may be wrong). HighSpeedSteel Originally Posted By HighSpeedSteel:
Originally Posted By nchapa:
Originally Posted By HighSpeedSteel:
Originally Posted By Valintino:
I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers.
Maybe, but telling the truth and facts are always a completely defensible position. HighSpeedSteel If you need reassuring that pws is good or not maybe you should think of getting a different rifle that is reliable and proven like a colt, dd, kac, etc. I'm not sure why you think I am looking for reassurance (on PWS's or anyone else's guns) because I am not. I'm also not sure why you think I am thinking about getting a rifle based on the requested information, because I am not. I am simply seeking to get as much real world information as possible, and drawing my own conclusions. But I'd like specific concrete information because making assumptions based on generalities or very limited information, like you have done, leads to being wrong. By the way, "colt, dd, kac" all produce plenty of guns (and parts) with problems. People in this thread want PWS specific information because the guns are fundamentally different than other "piston guns", and there is not a lot of information out there about them. The little information out there about them is overwhelmingly positive. That's why I want to hear some *specific* negatives, not gross generalizations (about piston guns in general) or assumptions (that may be wrong). HighSpeedSteel +1 exactly my sentiments |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Pistons and rods have bent and cracked. Springs in the piston system have failed and roller cams on the failed cause the upper receiver to seize up. V/R Ron Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
Originally Posted By samuse:
Y'all act like this is some sort of a shocker. Piston guns go tits-up at EVERY carbine class I've been to that had piston guns. The only one I ever saw run like it should was Jason Falla's real-deal 416. What ABOUT piston guns is the failure point? THAT is what we're trying to get his comments on. Pistons and rods have bent and cracked. Springs in the piston system have failed and roller cams on the failed cause the upper receiver to seize up. V/R Ron Thanks, Ron. Your statements make sense, especially with the number of rounds your guns go through. The rod and spring in the Adams system has always looked like a weak link, and I can only guess that the complexly shaped "rod" in the Osprey system would fare no better. I have two Adams uppers and my .308 AR is a SIG 716, which is mechanically essentially the same as the Adams system. Your experience tells me where to pay attention to on my guns, even if there's no way I'll ever get the same amount of rounds through them. |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Here are two more components that broke yesterday. The first is a standard flash hider that cracked in five spots and the other, while not AR-related, is something that has happened to AR bolts. The bolt is from a SCAR-L that has been on the line since day one (01 OCT 13). I think I've said it in this thread that I initially had no confidence in the SCAR, this weapon AK-47 of the West. It just runs and runs and made me a believer. I talked about the SCAR weapons with some the armorers yesterday and they couldn't believe how long the bolt on this weapon has lasted. We've had several barrel swaps and the bolt was perfectly fine. V/R Ron http://i.imgur.com/TmM40Le.jpg http://i.imgur.com/tf09ZeC.jpg Again, thanks for this thread and info. Your experience is invaluable. |
I was busy last night. I'm trying to crank a few out every evening, sheesh -XCRmonger
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Originally Posted By FALARAK:
I have shot a few, and quite honestly I was underwhelmed. I'll take a DI with an adjustable gas block myself. Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Originally Posted By dillehayd:
I have to say though that shooting semi with a can makes the piston highly desirable for me. I have shot a few, and quite honestly I was underwhelmed. I'll take a DI with an adjustable gas block myself. I have 4 DI rifles and 1 piston that I shoot with a can. Only the piston doesn't gas me when shooting quickly. YMMV. |
I was busy last night. I'm trying to crank a few out every evening, sheesh -XCRmonger
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Originally Posted By Valintino:
I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers.
As litigious as the business world is, I am not going to open myself up to some manufacture that doesn't want to hear the truth about their product in MY range. The rounds we put through each weapon system is not what most people will ever put through in a lifetime. I think it would be fair to say if I named one company who's product failed, with something subjective like a gas piston system in a MG range, it's plausible that somebody would feel that I did substantial harm to their product and/or name. V/R Ron |
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Originally Posted By dillehayd:
I have 4 DI rifles and 1 piston that I shoot with a can. Only the piston doesn't gas me when shooting quickly. YMMV. Originally Posted By dillehayd:
Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Originally Posted By dillehayd:
I have to say though that shooting semi with a can makes the piston highly desirable for me. I have shot a few, and quite honestly I was underwhelmed. I'll take a DI with an adjustable gas block myself. I have 4 DI rifles and 1 piston that I shoot with a can. Only the piston doesn't gas me when shooting quickly. YMMV. this is just the opposite of what i encounter with my piston gun , noticeably louder and gassy as Rusty after some beef-a-rino 
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: As litigious as the business world is, I am not going to open myself up to some manufacture that doesn't want to hear the truth about their product in MY range. The rounds we put through each weapon system is not what most people will ever put through in a lifetime. I think it would be fair to say if I named one company who's product failed, with something subjective like a gas piston system in a MG range, it's plausible that somebody would feel that I did substantial harm to their product and/or name. V/R Ron Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Originally Posted By Valintino: I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers. As litigious as the business world is, I am not going to open myself up to some manufacture that doesn't want to hear the truth about their product in MY range. The rounds we put through each weapon system is not what most people will ever put through in a lifetime. I think it would be fair to say if I named one company who's product failed, with something subjective like a gas piston system in a MG range, it's plausible that somebody would feel that I did substantial harm to their product and/or name. V/R Ron Completely understandable. If I were in your position, I would do the same. Could you comment on which companies that manufacture or sell rifles have the best customer service or which one of them are willing to go out of their way to make sure the customer is happy? |
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I'm all the more convinced this is an LGBT forum with a gun problem... .-EESmith
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this incredible thread.
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
As litigious as the business world is, I am not going to open myself up to some manufacture that doesn't want to hear the truth about their product in MY range. The rounds we put through each weapon system is not what most people will ever put through in a lifetime. I think it would be fair to say if I named one company who's product failed, with something subjective like a gas piston system in a MG range, it's plausible that somebody would feel that I did substantial harm to their product and/or name. V/R Ron Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Valintino:
I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers.
As litigious as the business world is, I am not going to open myself up to some manufacture that doesn't want to hear the truth about their product in MY range. The rounds we put through each weapon system is not what most people will ever put through in a lifetime. I think it would be fair to say if I named one company who's product failed, with something subjective like a gas piston system in a MG range, it's plausible that somebody would feel that I did substantial harm to their product and/or name. V/R Ron Fair enough. Didn't mean to put you on the spot a few pages back. Do you use any variable powered scopes? Any comment on which hold up best? How well do bullpups such as the AUG and Tavor hold up? |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: As litigious as the business world is, I am not going to open myself up to some manufacture that doesn't want to hear the truth about their product in MY range. The rounds we put through each weapon system is not what most people will ever put through in a lifetime. I think it would be fair to say if I named one company who's product failed, with something subjective like a gas piston system in a MG range, it's plausible that somebody would feel that I did substantial harm to their product and/or name. V/R Ron Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Originally Posted By Valintino: I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers. As litigious as the business world is, I am not going to open myself up to some manufacture that doesn't want to hear the truth about their product in MY range. The rounds we put through each weapon system is not what most people will ever put through in a lifetime. I think it would be fair to say if I named one company who's product failed, with something subjective like a gas piston system in a MG range, it's plausible that somebody would feel that I did substantial harm to their product and/or name. V/R Ron And they'd be right because pretty much if you say it sucks, I'm not buying it. 99% of this forum is "I feel" this is "I saw"... sooooo much better. -Jim |
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Ron, thank you for this incredible thread. I will stop in and shoot at your shop next time I am in Vegas.
If you can, please provide a general commentary on your experience with trigger/hammer pins: MIL-SPEC -vs- aftermarket -vs- anti-rotation pins (both for 5.56 and 9mm if possible) Thanks! Esox |
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Originally Posted By Esox:
Ron, thank you for this incredible thread. I will stop in and shoot at your shop next time I am in Vegas. If you can, please provide a general commentary on your experience with trigger/hammer pins: MIL-SPEC -vs- aftermarket -vs- anti-rotation pins (both for 5.56 and 9mm if possible) Thanks! Esox 1+ great question Thanks again Ron!! |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
As litigious as the business world is, I am not going to open myself up to some manufacture that doesn't want to hear the truth about their product in MY range. The rounds we put through each weapon system is not what most people will ever put through in a lifetime. I think it would be fair to say if I named one company who's product failed, with something subjective like a gas piston system in a MG range, it's plausible that somebody would feel that I did substantial harm to their product and/or name. V/R Ron Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Valintino:
I'm starting to think that Ron won't comment on this, since he doesn't want to be held liable for the loss of profits to several famous manufacturers.
As litigious as the business world is, I am not going to open myself up to some manufacture that doesn't want to hear the truth about their product in MY range. The rounds we put through each weapon system is not what most people will ever put through in a lifetime. I think it would be fair to say if I named one company who's product failed, with something subjective like a gas piston system in a MG range, it's plausible that somebody would feel that I did substantial harm to their product and/or name. V/R Ron They would lose, as it's not slander to report your experience correctly. That said, they might try as a harassment tactic. |
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Very interesting thread, I love stuff like this.
Which generation of Pmags do you guys use and have problems with? Supposedly the newer mags use a more durable polymer. I'd be very curious to know how 7.62 rifles do; M14/M1As, SCAR 17s, AR-10s, and FALs and the like. I'd also be very curious to hear how pistols do. |
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Originally Posted By goatmurray: I'd also be very curious to hear how pistols do. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/160140_High_round_count_pistols__100_000___observations.html |
Thanks to HammerHammer for the Team Membership.
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I just found this thread and read all 14 pages. All I can say is WOW! First, Ron you are simply an awesome guy. Thanks for taking the time to share this invaluable information with us. But also thanks for being, what seems to be, a great human being! And a hard working one too.
We can learn more from this ONE thread than all the internet Ninja nonsense we usually read on this and other gun forums. Thanks again Ron! |
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Originally Posted By Esox:
Ron, thank you for this incredible thread. I will stop in and shoot at your shop next time I am in Vegas. If you can, please provide a general commentary on your experience with trigger/hammer pins: MIL-SPEC -vs- aftermarket -vs- anti-rotation pins (both for 5.56 and 9mm if possible) Thanks! Esox I am not sure about the mil-spec quality of the trigger pins but I know that one of our hammer pins broke and one in particular was replaced with an aftermarket pin that wasn't "notched" in the center for the retainer spring in the hammer. It kept walking out and somebody tagged the weapon as having an egg'ed/enlarged hammer pin hole but after I went through it, I couldn't see any evidence of it enlarging. I've tried to say out of the armory on purpose so the armorers don't feel that the "boss" is watching what they're doing but I truly have a passion for this stuff. I pushed the hammer pin out to make sure that it just wasn't illusion of the hole NOT being enlarged. It looked normal and that's when I noticed that the notch in the middle of the pin wasn't there. The staff didn't look for it and I can't really blame them because it's just ASSUMED that all pins have the hammer and trigger spring notches in them. I went through our AR parts bin and found three more like this out of at least thirty pins. We've used aftermarket LPK's when in a pinch for parts in the past and these were clearly from those kits. We have two sets of KNS auto-sear pins for weapons that have had the auto-sear hole enlarge. These are for post sample weapons that at the very least four years-old that we used to use for LE weapons familiarization classes. The KNS pins have kept both weapons properly since the installation. V/R Ron |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: I am not sure about the mil-spec quality of the trigger pins but I know that one of our hammer pins broke and one in particular was replaced with an aftermarket pin that wasn't "notched" in the center for the retainer spring in the hammer. It kept walking out and somebody tagged the weapon as having an egg'ed/enlarged hammer pin hole but after I went through it, I couldn't see any evidence of it enlarging. I've tried to say out of the armory on purpose so the armorers don't feel that the "boss" is watching what they're doing but I truly have a passion for this stuff. I pushed the hammer pin out to make sure that it just wasn't illusion of the hole NOT being enlarged. It looked normal and that's when I noticed that the notch in the middle of the pin wasn't there. The staff didn't look for it and I can't really blame them because it's just ASSUMED that all pins have the hammer and trigger spring notches in them. I went through our AR parts bin and found three more like this out of at least thirty pins. We've used aftermarket LPK's when in a pinch for parts in the past and these were clearly from those kits. We have two sets of KNS auto-sear pins for weapons that have had the auto-sear hole enlarge. These are for post sample weapons that at the very least four years-old that we used to use for LE weapons familiarization classes. The KNS pins have kept both weapons properly since the installation. V/R Ron Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Originally Posted By Esox: Ron, thank you for this incredible thread. I will stop in and shoot at your shop next time I am in Vegas. If you can, please provide a general commentary on your experience with trigger/hammer pins: MIL-SPEC -vs- aftermarket -vs- anti-rotation pins (both for 5.56 and 9mm if possible) Thanks! Esox I am not sure about the mil-spec quality of the trigger pins but I know that one of our hammer pins broke and one in particular was replaced with an aftermarket pin that wasn't "notched" in the center for the retainer spring in the hammer. It kept walking out and somebody tagged the weapon as having an egg'ed/enlarged hammer pin hole but after I went through it, I couldn't see any evidence of it enlarging. I've tried to say out of the armory on purpose so the armorers don't feel that the "boss" is watching what they're doing but I truly have a passion for this stuff. I pushed the hammer pin out to make sure that it just wasn't illusion of the hole NOT being enlarged. It looked normal and that's when I noticed that the notch in the middle of the pin wasn't there. The staff didn't look for it and I can't really blame them because it's just ASSUMED that all pins have the hammer and trigger spring notches in them. I went through our AR parts bin and found three more like this out of at least thirty pins. We've used aftermarket LPK's when in a pinch for parts in the past and these were clearly from those kits. We have two sets of KNS auto-sear pins for weapons that have had the auto-sear hole enlarge. These are for post sample weapons that at the very least four years-old that we used to use for LE weapons familiarization classes. The KNS pins have kept both weapons properly since the installation. V/R Ron As pictured below from the KNS website:  The trigger pin is on the right.... I've had hammer pins break on me in the middle and cause AD's. I use an MGI lower which goes over the head of the hammer pin so now I use KNS TRIGGER pins for both pins and have never broken either pin. |
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I am not sure about the mil-spec quality of the trigger pins but I know that one of our hammer pins broke and one in particular was replaced with an aftermarket pin that wasn't "notched" in the center for the retainer spring in the hammer. It kept walking out and somebody tagged the weapon as having an egg'ed/enlarged hammer pin hole but after I went through it, I couldn't see any evidence of it enlarging. I've tried to say out of the armory on purpose so the armorers don't feel that the "boss" is watching what they're doing but I truly have a passion for this stuff. I pushed the hammer pin out to make sure that it just wasn't illusion of the hole NOT being enlarged. It looked normal and that's when I noticed that the notch in the middle of the pin wasn't there. The staff didn't look for it and I can't really blame them because it's just ASSUMED that all pins have the hammer and trigger spring notches in them. I went through our AR parts bin and found three more like this out of at least thirty pins. We've used aftermarket LPK's when in a pinch for parts in the past and these were clearly from those kits. We have two sets of KNS auto-sear pins for weapons that have had the auto-sear hole enlarge. These are for post sample weapons that at the very least four years-old that we used to use for LE weapons familiarization classes. The KNS pins have kept both weapons properly since the installation. V/R Ron Ron, can you comment on the following generalized statements regarding your business's experiences with full auto 5.66/.223 AR based platforms?: 1. You do not use anti-rotation trigger/hammer pins and that receiver hole 'egging' has not been an issue [Y/N]? It appears that the only possible hole egging (if they are indeed egged) was due to pins 'walking out', which may have been due to inadvertent use of an aftermarket smooth trigger pin for a hammer pin. 2. You do not use anti-walk clips/pins and do not have a serious issue with pins walking out when known proper pins are utilized [Y/N]? 3. You have experienced hammer pins breaking, but the occurrence is relatively rare and not correlated with a specific brand/type of pin [Y/N]? Thank you again for providing us with objective experience-based facts in a world full of theory-based opinions. V/R, Esox |
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Originally Posted By witchking777:
I am curious about the Eotech failures,are they the older 512 type versions or the transverse battery type like the exps3? Thanks! We had a newer EXP3-type (not sure of the model numbers/nomenclature) that went down after the warranty expired in addition to the older units. V/R Ron |
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
IWe had a newer EXP3-type (not sure of the model numbers/nomenclature) that went down after the warranty expired in addition to the older units. V/R Ron Great info. Were you going to start another thread dealing with optics issues? I'd love to know how some of the variable scopes hold up, like Leupold and other brands. Also, do you employ the Trijicon reflex sights very much, and if so, how do they fare? |
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Originally Posted By DocGlockster:
Great info. Were you going to start another thread dealing with optics issues? I'd love to know how some of the variable scopes hold up, like Leupold and other brands. Also, do you employ the Trijicon reflex sights very much, and if so, how do they fare? Originally Posted By DocGlockster:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
IWe had a newer EXP3-type (not sure of the model numbers/nomenclature) that went down after the warranty expired in addition to the older units. V/R Ron Great info. Were you going to start another thread dealing with optics issues? I'd love to know how some of the variable scopes hold up, like Leupold and other brands. Also, do you employ the Trijicon reflex sights very much, and if so, how do they fare? Great idea! |
You don't want any part of me right now, I'm full of bitterness, Scotch, and impure thoughts!!!!
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PA-PA-PA-PA-POW! Like 10 pounds of C4 in your sister! --Redhed97
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PA-PA-PA-PA-POW! Like 10 pounds of C4 in your sister! --Redhed97
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Never would have thought a flash suppressor would break from shooting...
Wow. Great thread Ron. Thank you. How many rounds are commonly fired at any one time, that is, by one customer? I'm curious here about heat buidup in the gun. I'd think this could be quite variable but am not sure. |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Originally Posted By EVR:
Never would have thought a flash suppressor would break from shooting... Wow. Great thread Ron. Thank you. How many rounds are commonly fired at any one time, that is, by one customer? I'm curious here about heat buidup in the gun. I'd think this could be quite variable but am not sure. On average, it's usually one magazine. We set our packages up to usually run one magazine per weapon at a time so they don't get beat up. The one exception is the Thompson M1A1 and the M1928. They usually include two magazines at a time because they are so durable. V/R Ron |
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Originally Posted By BigMan74:
Ron, do you have any 9mm AR rifles on the range, if so what magazines are you using with them? Curious to hear how they hold up under full auto. We have four Colt factory full-auto 9mm's and other than an occasional broken magazine catch and hammer pin, they run well. We've only lost ONE firing pin in almost three years and they get used hard everyday. When we first opened and had to watch our budget, we were using old Colt, modified Uzi, modified Hotchkiss and some aftermarket magazines. We've replaced most of the older magazines with MSC magazines I believe. I'm not at work yet to verify the mfg but I ordered them about 12-16 months ago and we haven't had any issues with them. We didn't really have any issues with the old ones we had but I replaced them more as a preventative maintenance for that platform. V/R Ron |
| Ron. If someone has some new designs and would like to send them to you to destroy for free, would you be interested? Also I use a Lucas oil additive for camshaft break in, in my engines. It is packed full of friction reducing vitamins. It works great on AR's and stainless pistols. Your info is invaluable. Thanks for taking the time to share it. Craig. [email protected] |
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Ron:
Check this out. It is one of the very few actual tests of frame wear on pistols. Part of the test is irrelevant to you {cold weather portion} and you can skip over that portion but the frame wear test at room temperature was excellent and provides real data on several lubes. I've been using G96 for years on rifles and pistols largely because of it. Several others are excellent also. http://www.g96.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/TR-01-97.pdf |
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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Originally Posted By Esox:
Ron, can you comment on the following generalized statements regarding your business's experiences with full auto 5.66/.223 AR based platforms?: 1. You do not use anti-rotation trigger/hammer pins and that receiver hole 'egging' has not been an issue [Y/N]? It appears that the only possible hole egging (if they are indeed egged) was due to pins 'walking out', which may have been due to inadvertent use of an aftermarket smooth trigger pin for a hammer pin. 2. You do not use anti-walk clips/pins and do not have a serious issue with pins walking out when known proper pins are utilized [Y/N]? 3. You have experienced hammer pins breaking, but the occurrence is relatively rare and not correlated with a specific brand/type of pin [Y/N]? Thank you again for providing us with objective experience-based facts in a world full of theory-based opinions. V/R, Esox 1. The hammer/trigger pins egging has not been issue for us. The only pins to walk out of the receiver were pins that were missing both notches. The only other pins to walk out were from non-factory auto sear holes that "egged". I don't know if it was a terrible drilling job or cutting into the anodizing, therefore speeding up the rate of wear on that hole. 2. We do not have an issue of pins walking out when the proper pins are installed in the weapons. 3. We have experienced hammer pins break but these instances are more common with shorter barrels. This is further exacerbated by 8.5" barrels chambered in .223/5.56 and 10.5" 9mm barrels and it does not matter which pin is used. V/R Ron |
High round count AR/M4's (over 100,000 rounds) and how they have handled on our range (Page 7 of 43)
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