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Help me find out just how accurate "accurate" can be ... (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 11/15/2013 8:03:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: LaRue_Tactical][Edited]
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Hey all, working on a baseline for 308/7.62 factory ammo accuracy. I hear "shoots lights-out" - "stacking 'em" - "one nasty-azzed ragged hole" ... etc. with claims of one-hole group capabilities.
Read data gathered so far by going over " here " and add your 2 cents worth. M. LaRue |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Hey all, working on a baseline for 308/7.62 factory ammo accuracy. Beat that and you might have something. Your better off trolling sniperhide though, but they dont have as many fans |
The king of the vultures would be no less bent upon preying upon the flock than any of the minor harpies, it was indispensable to be in a perpetual attitude of defence against his beak and claws
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My personal opinion is under 1" at 100 yards with factory Federal GMM 175gr SMK is good.
If I can get a rifle to shoot that I'm happy, because the rifle probably shoots better than I can shoot it. And remember, no matter what you won't be able to make everyone happy. |
Its not the guy that walks in with a gun and says he is going to start shooting that you have to worry about.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting.
Its the guy that just walks in and just starts shooting.
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Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
the baseline is 175/168 fed match, its considered the standard when comparing accuracy across platforms Beat that and you might have something. Your better off trolling sniperhide though, but they dont have as many fans Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Hey all, working on a baseline for 308/7.62 factory ammo accuracy. Beat that and you might have something. Your better off trolling sniperhide though, but they dont have as many fans Are you insinuating that no one on ARFcom can shoot as well as the Snipershiders ? Trolling ? Fans ? WTF ? 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By fsjdw2:
Not to dump on a thread but I would much rather have a precise rifle and ammo than an accurate one. I'll adjust the sights after I get my one ragged hole so that it hits where I want it. 
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Are you insinuating that no one on ARFcom can shoot as well as the Snipershiders ? |
The king of the vultures would be no less bent upon preying upon the flock than any of the minor harpies, it was indispensable to be in a perpetual attitude of defence against his beak and claws
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Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
no. but their sure as hell is a lot less bias, especially when your fanbois pile on in every thread you post. Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Are you insinuating that no one on ARFcom can shoot as well as the Snipershiders ? Oh go frack yourself ... nobody is looking or talking about fanbois LaRue rifle accuracy - but you truly do your gawddamndest to cancel out anyone that likes anything made by me or my team. How long has your attacking all-things-LaRue been going on ? ... 10 straight years of your anti-LaRue rants day after day, month after month - year after year ...
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
| Why do threads like this always turn into pissing matches. LT asked a question why not just answer or not say anything at all. This should be tech discussion not this. |
I was born an AR in my hands. Behind the gun I will make my final stand, and that is why they call me .... bad company I cannot deny.... Bad company till the day I die.
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Originally Posted By EdgecrusherXES_45:
Why do threads like this always turn into pissing matches. LT asked a question why not just answer or not say anything at all. This should be tech discussion not this. He's a fanboy of something/anything not-made-by-LaRue and hitting hard with a pre-emptive strike in case some who-knows-what urban legend gets the wrecking ball. |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Oh go frack yourself ... nobody is looking or talking about fanbois LaRue rifle accuracy - but you truly do your gawddamndest to cancel out anyone that likes anything made by me or my team. How long has your attacking all-things-LaRue been going on ? ... 10 straight years of your anti-LaRue rants day after day, month after month - year after year ... Its not biased against LT, its the biased presented in any data you get form this site. Look at the moa groups you already got it the other thread, it has already been mentioned that the data is probably biased with cherry picked groups. Would anybody stand up and say "yeah I shoot shitty groups" in my 2k gun. NO they would not. Do you think anyone would say something to you without fear of the pile on? You will get biased data, just because you asked the question from more than most and there is no way to tell which is good data. |
The king of the vultures would be no less bent upon preying upon the flock than any of the minor harpies, it was indispensable to be in a perpetual attitude of defence against his beak and claws
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Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
You missed it and you really take things to personally. Anti LT rants= that is a lie, Fanboi rants, yep. Yu havent even been posting for 10 years Its not biased against LT, its the biased presented in any data you get form this site. Look at the moa groups you already got it the other thread, it has already been mentioned that the data is probably biased with cherry picked groups. Would anybody stand up and say "yeah I shoot shitty groups" in my 2k gun. NO they would not. Do you think anyone would say something to you without fear of the pile on? You will get biased data, just because you asked the question from more than most and there is no way to tell which is good data. Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Oh go frack yourself ... nobody is looking or talking about fanbois LaRue rifle accuracy - but you truly do your gawddamndest to cancel out anyone that likes anything made by me or my team. How long has your attacking all-things-LaRue been going on ? ... 10 straight years of your anti-LaRue rants day after day, month after month - year after year ... Its not biased against LT, its the biased presented in any data you get form this site. Look at the moa groups you already got it the other thread, it has already been mentioned that the data is probably biased with cherry picked groups. Would anybody stand up and say "yeah I shoot shitty groups" in my 2k gun. NO they would not. Do you think anyone would say something to you without fear of the pile on? You will get biased data, just because you asked the question from more than most and there is no way to tell which is good data. Yeah, whatever - you add nothing to this board, so why don't you just move to one that deserves your excellence.
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: He's a fanboy of something/anything not-made-by-LaRue and hitting hard with a pre-emptive strike in case some who-knows-what urban legend gets the wrecking ball. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSAJfTROc5-q2w1E9yCFGBe05BLF-wKOW0N98XtGf1Lswxb1OBu Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Originally Posted By EdgecrusherXES_45: Why do threads like this always turn into pissing matches. LT asked a question why not just answer or not say anything at all. This should be tech discussion not this. He's a fanboy of something/anything not-made-by-LaRue and hitting hard with a pre-emptive strike in case some who-knows-what urban legend gets the wrecking ball. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSAJfTROc5-q2w1E9yCFGBe05BLF-wKOW0N98XtGf1Lswxb1OBu Thats is your MO. |
The king of the vultures would be no less bent upon preying upon the flock than any of the minor harpies, it was indispensable to be in a perpetual attitude of defence against his beak and claws
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Yeah, whatever - you add nothing to this board, so why don't you just move to one that deserves your excellence. Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: removed Yeah, whatever - you add nothing to this board, so why don't you just move to one that deserves your excellence. |
The king of the vultures would be no less bent upon preying upon the flock than any of the minor harpies, it was indispensable to be in a perpetual attitude of defence against his beak and claws
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: He's a fanboy of something/anything not-made-by-LaRue |
The king of the vultures would be no less bent upon preying upon the flock than any of the minor harpies, it was indispensable to be in a perpetual attitude of defence against his beak and claws
| Taylor, this is not GD...at this point you look childish as well because you came to post in this thread presumably for no other reason than to pick a fight with ML. And no, I'm no Larue fanboy. Larue makes a great mount and I own two of them, but I've also been on the side of others when it comes to Larue vs X stuff in the past. Bottom line here, though, is there's no reason to bring drama into this thread. |
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Originally Posted By ASH556: Taylor, this is not GD...at this point you look childish as well because you came to post in this thread presumably for no other reason than to pick a fight with ML. And no, I'm no Larue fanboy. Larue makes a great mount and I own two of them, but I've also been on the side of others when it comes to Larue vs X stuff in the past. Bottom line here, though, is there's no reason to bring drama into this thread. Thats been proven over and over on this site despite the manf drama is not a statement about fanboi biasing data, drama are remarks with no basis other than emotion, see above |
The king of the vultures would be no less bent upon preying upon the flock than any of the minor harpies, it was indispensable to be in a perpetual attitude of defence against his beak and claws
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Originally Posted By ASH556:
Taylor, this is not GD...at this point you look childish as well because you came to post in this thread presumably for no other reason than to pick a fight with ML. And no, I'm no Larue fanboy. Larue makes a great mount and I own two of them, but I've also been on the side of others when it comes to Larue vs X stuff in the past. Bottom line here, though, is there's no reason to bring drama into this thread. Thanks, just trying to find where the accuracy bar is truly set ... and yes, so I can attempt to get near as possible to it with stuff I make |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Thanks, just trying to find where the accuracy bar is truly set ... and yes, so I can attempt to get near as possible to it with stuff I make |
The king of the vultures would be no less bent upon preying upon the flock than any of the minor harpies, it was indispensable to be in a perpetual attitude of defence against his beak and claws
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Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
then go to SH and register w/o any LT affiliation, you cannot expect to get the truth any other way Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Thanks, just trying to find where the accuracy bar is truly set ... and yes, so I can attempt to get near as possible to it with stuff I make Speaking of Fanboy ... "Oh, oh, Mark, Mark, only Snipershide knows what's what."
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Mark, You are a Texan, so contact a Texan that knows the answer to your question: Mr Bill Wiseman. First you have not defined the type or class of ammunition although you have defined the projectile and cartridge/caliber. You might also wish to contact the bullet manufacturer and see what their accuracy or precision standards are. You will discover that they are not as good as we all think by the way! I would also strongly suggest that you reach out to Kevin Thomas at Lapua or Dave Emary at Hornady. Polling AR15.com is more like trolling when looking for factual responses... even mine!  |
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Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
<snip> Yu havent even been posting for 10 years Its not biased against LT, its the biased presented in any data you get form this site. <snip> You're right, I haven't posted for ten years, but I started reading back in early 2004 and because of uppity gentlemen such as yourself, it's been one long road ever since.
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
| OK hopefully everyone is empty got all the piss out and we can focus back on topic because I am interested in results as I am NOT an expert shooter but I consider myself a good shooter and like to see where I fall and how much area I or my equipment could improve. |
I was born an AR in my hands. Behind the gun I will make my final stand, and that is why they call me .... bad company I cannot deny.... Bad company till the day I die.
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Originally Posted By EdgecrusherXES_45:
OK hopefully everyone is empty got all the piss out and we can focus back on topic because I am interested in results as I am NOT an expert shooter but I consider myself a good shooter and like to see where I fall and how much area I or my equipment could improve. I'm in. |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Okay, boys, a friendly warning from the Moderator. Mark asked a simple question with a link to another thread. Either participate with technical information, post in the other thread, or don't post.
This is a Technical Forum with different rules than General Discussion. Follow the rules or Warnings will be given. Thanks. |
"I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it." - Capt. W. F. Call, Texas Ranger
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Shooting Stuff Is Fun
http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Shooting Stuff Is Fun
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical: Hey all, working on a baseline for 308/7.62 factory ammo accuracy. I hear "shoots lights-out" - "stacking 'em" - "one nasty-azzed ragged hole" ... etc. with claims of one-hole group capabilities. Read data gathered so far by going over " here " and add your 2 cents worth. M. LaRue IMO when people use the terms you mention they actually have no idea what the measured accuracy or precision of their groups are (and programs like On-Target are free). Probably 99.5% of shooters are recreational shooters who may believe they are Carlos Hathcock but actually have no technical knowledge of precision shooting or statistical evaluation. As far as baseline accuracy for factory ammo, you would likely have to shoot all the available ammos out of each type of rifle and then determine what specific ammo shoots best out of that specific rifle. Even then, each variant of that specific rifle could likely still have a specific ammo preference. Since nowdays everybody thinks they have a precision rifle (1 MOA or less), I would think that 0.20 MOA resolution would be needed for comparisons. However at this resolution, getting consistent and reliable results would be very difficult. I have likely shot 90% of all the factory loaded match 168 gr 308 ammo available. I dont see any way to tell which one is best. I know which ones are currently best for my 308 rifles, but thats it. |
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Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
IMO when people use the terms you mention they actually have no idea what the measured accuracy or precision of their groups are (and programs like On-Target are free). Probably 99.5% of shooters are recreational shooters who may believe they are Carlos Hathcock but actually have no technical knowledge of precision shooting or statistical evaluation. As far as baseline accuracy for factory ammo, you would likely have to shoot all the available ammos out of each type of rifle and then determine what specific ammo shoots best out of that specific rifle. Even then, each variant of that specific rifle could likely still have a specific ammo preference. Since nowdays everybody thinks they have a precision rifle (1 MOA or less), I would think that 0.20 MOA resolution would be needed for comparisons. However at this resolution, getting consistent and reliable results would be very difficult. I have likely shot 90% of all the factory loaded match 168 gr 308 ammo available. I dont see any way to tell which one is best. I know which ones are currently best for my 308 rifles, but thats it. Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Hey all, working on a baseline for 308/7.62 factory ammo accuracy. I hear "shoots lights-out" - "stacking 'em" - "one nasty-azzed ragged hole" ... etc. with claims of one-hole group capabilities. Read data gathered so far by going over " here " and add your 2 cents worth. M. LaRue IMO when people use the terms you mention they actually have no idea what the measured accuracy or precision of their groups are (and programs like On-Target are free). Probably 99.5% of shooters are recreational shooters who may believe they are Carlos Hathcock but actually have no technical knowledge of precision shooting or statistical evaluation. As far as baseline accuracy for factory ammo, you would likely have to shoot all the available ammos out of each type of rifle and then determine what specific ammo shoots best out of that specific rifle. Even then, each variant of that specific rifle could likely still have a specific ammo preference. Since nowdays everybody thinks they have a precision rifle (1 MOA or less), I would think that 0.20 MOA resolution would be needed for comparisons. However at this resolution, getting consistent and reliable results would be very difficult. I have likely shot 90% of all the factory loaded match 168 gr 308 ammo available. I dont see any way to tell which one is best. I know which ones are currently best for my 308 rifles, but thats it. I can say I have done the same trying to find what my rifles like and do not like. But I do not think he is spitting hairs here. |
I was born an AR in my hands. Behind the gun I will make my final stand, and that is why they call me .... bad company I cannot deny.... Bad company till the day I die.
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Okay, before nit-picking the livin' sh*t out of this - I want to know what rifles "shot by humans" can do with Federal Gold Medal Match ... or any factory match ammo for that matter.
I don't give a rat's rear how you shoot it, as long as it is you shooting it. Shot off hand, shoot from sitting, shoot off a bench, bipod, bag in the back ... whatever. Like the guy in the other thread said - not trying to write a white paper for the Small Arms Symposium, just trying to see what the best in grouping looks like. |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By fsjdw2:
Not to dump on a thread but I would much rather have a precise rifle and ammo than an accurate one. I'll adjust the sights after I get my one ragged hole so that it hits where I want it. you don't understand that? |
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Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
You missed it and you really take things to personally. Anti LT rants= that is a lie, Fanboi rants, yep. Yu havent even been posting for 10 years Its not biased against LT, its the biased presented in any data you get form this site. Look at the moa groups you already got it the other thread, it has already been mentioned that the data is probably biased with cherry picked groups. Would anybody stand up and say "yeah I shoot shitty groups" in my 2k gun. NO they would not. Do you think anyone would say something to you without fear of the pile on? You will get biased data, just because you asked the question from more than most and there is no way to tell which is good data. Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Oh go frack yourself ... nobody is looking or talking about fanbois LaRue rifle accuracy - but you truly do your gawddamndest to cancel out anyone that likes anything made by me or my team. How long has your attacking all-things-LaRue been going on ? ... 10 straight years of your anti-LaRue rants day after day, month after month - year after year ... Its not biased against LT, its the biased presented in any data you get form this site. Look at the moa groups you already got it the other thread, it has already been mentioned that the data is probably biased with cherry picked groups. Would anybody stand up and say "yeah I shoot shitty groups" in my 2k gun. NO they would not. Do you think anyone would say something to you without fear of the pile on? You will get biased data, just because you asked the question from more than most and there is no way to tell which is good data. gotta agree with this as stated earlier, 175/168 is the standard. |
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Speaking of Fanboy ... "Oh, oh, Mark, Mark, only Snipershide knows what's what." Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Thanks, just trying to find where the accuracy bar is truly set ... and yes, so I can attempt to get near as possible to it with stuff I make Speaking of Fanboy ... "Oh, oh, Mark, Mark, only Snipershide knows what's what." You look like an ass here. What he said is spot on. You won't have unbiased data and the fact you even ask what the bar is is kinda suspect. I find it hard to believe you have no idea what that is but I do commend you on the cheap marketing ploy |
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Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
IMO when people use the terms you mention they actually have no idea what the measured accuracy or precision of their groups are (and programs like On-Target are free). Probably 99.5% of shooters are recreational shooters who may believe they are Carlos Hathcock but actually have no technical knowledge of precision shooting or statistical evaluation. As far as baseline accuracy for factory ammo, you would likely have to shoot all the available ammos out of each type of rifle and then determine what specific ammo shoots best out of that specific rifle. Even then, each variant of that specific rifle could likely still have a specific ammo preference. Since nowdays everybody thinks they have a precision rifle (1 MOA or less), I would think that 0.20 MOA resolution would be needed for comparisons. However at this resolution, getting consistent and reliable results would be very difficult. I have likely shot 90% of all the factory loaded match 168 gr 308 ammo available. I dont see any way to tell which one is best. I know which ones are currently best for my 308 rifles, but thats it. Originally Posted By JeffinVAB:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Hey all, working on a baseline for 308/7.62 factory ammo accuracy. I hear "shoots lights-out" - "stacking 'em" - "one nasty-azzed ragged hole" ... etc. with claims of one-hole group capabilities. Read data gathered so far by going over " here " and add your 2 cents worth. M. LaRue IMO when people use the terms you mention they actually have no idea what the measured accuracy or precision of their groups are (and programs like On-Target are free). Probably 99.5% of shooters are recreational shooters who may believe they are Carlos Hathcock but actually have no technical knowledge of precision shooting or statistical evaluation. As far as baseline accuracy for factory ammo, you would likely have to shoot all the available ammos out of each type of rifle and then determine what specific ammo shoots best out of that specific rifle. Even then, each variant of that specific rifle could likely still have a specific ammo preference. Since nowdays everybody thinks they have a precision rifle (1 MOA or less), I would think that 0.20 MOA resolution would be needed for comparisons. However at this resolution, getting consistent and reliable results would be very difficult. I have likely shot 90% of all the factory loaded match 168 gr 308 ammo available. I dont see any way to tell which one is best. I know which ones are currently best for my 308 rifles, but thats it. that's a good post.......that's a VERY good post |
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Okay, before nit-picking the livin' sh*t out of this - I want to know what rifles "shot by humans" can do with Federal Gold Medal Match ... or any factory match ammo for that matter. I don't give a rat's rear how you shoot it, as long as it is you shooting it. Shot off hand, shoot from sitting, shoot off a bench, bipod, bag in the back ... whatever. Like the guy in the other thread said - not trying to write a white paper for the Small Arms Symposium, just trying to see what the best in grouping looks like. define the groupings please. Do you want the inaccurate best of 3 shot groups people post here or do you want end of session 5 5 shot groups which would be more accurate? |
| For something like Mark is making, I would be more concerned with consistency over a heat range. The gun might be "One Ragged Hole" if you let it cool for 20 minutes between shots, but for a gun such as the OBR, I would want consistency through the heat range. If you are engaging multiple targets, and doing it at a fast pace, I would find that to be my most important factor in that platform. Heck if it holds 1.5 MOA while frickin hot as all hell, then great!! If it starts stringing 5 inches at 100 yards after a couple mags then that sorta would defeat the purpose of that platform. |
I cut it twice, and it's still short.
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Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
You look like an ass here. What he said is spot on. You won't have unbiased data and the fact you even ask what the bar is is kinda suspect. I find it hard to believe you have no idea what that is but I do commend you on the cheap marketing ploy Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Thanks, just trying to find where the accuracy bar is truly set ... and yes, so I can attempt to get near as possible to it with stuff I make Speaking of Fanboy ... "Oh, oh, Mark, Mark, only Snipershide knows what's what." You look like an ass here. What he said is spot on. You won't have unbiased data and the fact you even ask what the bar is is kinda suspect. I find it hard to believe you have no idea what that is but I do commend you on the cheap marketing ploy Whatever. Fact is I don't care what data I get, I will sort through the cluttter (and so will everybody else not shooting their mouth off here) and get what I (they) need ... the fact the data is so sparse shows me a lot in and of itself and that's that damn little evidence of the topic is published. And mods, you see why I rarely darken the doors of this particular pit. |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
define the groupings please. Do you want the inaccurate best of 3 shot groups people post here or do you want end of session 5 5 shot groups which would be more accurate? Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Okay, before nit-picking the livin' sh*t out of this - I want to know what rifles "shot by humans" can do with Federal Gold Medal Match ... or any factory match ammo for that matter. I don't give a rat's rear how you shoot it, as long as it is you shooting it. Shot off hand, shoot from sitting, shoot off a bench, bipod, bag in the back ... whatever. Like the guy in the other thread said - not trying to write a white paper for the Small Arms Symposium, just trying to see what the best in grouping looks like. define the groupings please. Do you want the inaccurate best of 3 shot groups people post here or do you want end of session 5 5 shot groups which would be more accurate? I would most prefer you walk out there and shoot a target (sorta like I posted) with eight 5-shot groups, bipod,/rear bag, no warm-up, no nothing, but shoot it and post it. Run that software on it will save time too. Use enough scope so that magnification is not an issue. ETA - So, if you got access to a 308, any 308, go get it and shoot it. Post the target warts and all, no second shoots cause "it can do better" ... bolt gun, gas gun, shoot what ya got. Just have enough glass on it and shoot factory match ammo - FGMM 168 or 175s or both and anything else you got 40 rounds of match factory ammo of. This is an educational thread. We're gonna get to the bottom of the top of accuracy. |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By jukeboxx13:
Ok I think I got it now. Cold guns and cold shooters with FGMM 168/175's with either a bolt or semi auto .308 Winchester rifle. ETA: Shoot 8 five shot groups from any position "once" and post results. Correct? Yep. But a benchrest, bipod, and rear bag seems to be what most guys would do best with ... others might find prone, bipod and a rear bag is best for them. |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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I don't have enough knowledge, expertise, or money to post in this thread, but I do appreciate and respect an American Made Manufacture with the balls to back up their product and challenge anyone that dares to degrade them.
Go LaRue Tactical, Made Dead Center of Texas. No, I don't own one....yet. |
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Whatever. Fact is I don't care what data I get, I will sort through the cluttter (and so will everybody else not shooting their mouth off here) and get what I (they) need ... the fact the data is so sparse shows me a lot in and of itself and that's that damn little evidence of the topic is published. And mods, you see why I rarely darken the doors of this particular pit. Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By RUTGERS95:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Thanks, just trying to find where the accuracy bar is truly set ... and yes, so I can attempt to get near as possible to it with stuff I make Speaking of Fanboy ... "Oh, oh, Mark, Mark, only Snipershide knows what's what." You look like an ass here. What he said is spot on. You won't have unbiased data and the fact you even ask what the bar is is kinda suspect. I find it hard to believe you have no idea what that is but I do commend you on the cheap marketing ploy Whatever. Fact is I don't care what data I get, I will sort through the cluttter (and so will everybody else not shooting their mouth off here) and get what I (they) need ... the fact the data is so sparse shows me a lot in and of itself and that's that damn little evidence of the topic is published. And mods, you see why I rarely darken the doors of this particular pit. And that's too bad I like AR discussion and would like you to participate more. Tell you what send me one of your fine rifles and I will test it for you. 
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My thoughts, right or wrong, is that with the degree of precision of any of the top level rifles, and some cheaper ones as well, you ideally need to use not only the same ammo, but also shoot the various rifles on the same day, at the same location, under the same conditions, and, using the same firing cadence and with the same shooter.
Also, a 5 shot group isn't going to cut it, you need 10 shots, and you need 10 groups of them to have any statistical merit. The last thing, is that these rifles will be so close, that it will probably be a wash at 100 yards. This should be done at 300 yards at best, and 200 yards only if you have to. At those ranges the differences will be more pronounced, but then wind will also affect the groups, so that is why I also said same day, same location. Everything needs to be as controlled as possible, with the only variation being the rifle. My .02¢, or well, maybe in this case , my .25¢. |
Don't go ninj'in nobody that don't need ninj'in
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I'd more like to see how these rifles group after a few mags were run through them in a short amount of time.
Some of these "higher end" 308s have been known to open up quite a bit after they get hot... |
"They are not men, they are weapons."
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
It's not me, it's the BRD talking.
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Im by no means a sniper but heres a target from a couple years ago. Center is 168gr FGMM top center is 175gr FGMM the rest are random of either 168 or 175gr FGMM 5 shot groups. Center bottom was a 10 shot group ETA. This was through a Noveske N6 with a 40$ 3-9 Wal mart scope. Shot at 100 yards  |
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Originally Posted By 3O8junkie:
Im by no means a sniper but heres a target from a couple years ago. Center is 168gr FGMM top center is 175gr FGMM the rest are random of either 168 or 175gr FGMM 5 shot groups. Center bottom was a 10 shot group ETA. This was through a Noveske N6 with a 40$ 3-9 Wal mart scope. <a href="http://s187.photobucket.com/user/Smokeyjojackson/media/IMG_0165.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x119/Smokeyjojackson/IMG_0165.jpg</a> What range? |
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Originally Posted By livinfree:
I don't have enough knowledge, expertise, or money to post in this thread, but I do appreciate and respect an American Made Manufacture with the balls to back up their product and challenge anyone that dares to degrade them. Go LaRue Tactical, Made Dead Center of Texas. No, I don't own one....yet. Years ago a buddy called with news of his 3rd young'un on the way ... " Yep Mark, I done f**ked my way into the poorhouse." His 3rd is a motorhead flying in Navy flight school now.
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God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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In the other thread ... Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Sinister, I appreciate the peek into the AMU shop. Here's some more thoughts ... 1.) Re: the machine rests ... the 25 lb. 5/8ths moa benchrest rifle target gave me the "overboard" number 2.) So I discounted our 8 lb. rifles ever consistently outshooting that. 3.) Can't ask the guys to shoot 10 groups of ten shots each - too much money. 2 boxes of FGMM is asking a lot as it is. That AMU budget trumps us chumps. 4.) I don't have to care what the inaccurate rifles are capable of - "Only accurate rifles are interesting" Col. Townsend Whelen 5.) It will be nice to know what rifles that the guys think are way accurate are somewhat capable of. ML |
God Bless Our Troops ... Especially Our Snipers.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
Makers of all things LaRue - the Stealth Uppers, the OBR in 5.56 and 7.62, the PredatAR in both 5.56 and 7.62, the best QD mounts known to mankind ... and so on.
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Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
My thoughts, right or wrong, is that with the degree of precision of any of the top level rifles, and some cheaper ones as well, you ideally need to use not only the same ammo, but also shoot the various rifles on the same day, at the same location, under the same conditions, and, using the same firing cadence and with the same shooter. Also, a 5 shot group isn't going to cut it, you need 10 shots, and you need 10 groups of them to have any statistical merit. The last thing, is that these rifles will be so close, that it will probably be a wash at 100 yards. This should be done at 300 yards at best, and 200 yards only if you have to. At those ranges the differences will be more pronounced, but then wind will also affect the groups, so that is why I also said same day, same location. Everything needs to be as controlled as possible, with the only variation being the rifle. My .02¢, or well, maybe in this case , my .25¢. I agree which is why I say 5-5shot groups at the end of the session. Your barrel won't be cool, any heat induced opening will be present and on your last 2 groups, you should have the measure of what the barrel will MOST LIKELY do with that ammo. |
Help me find out just how accurate "accurate" can be ... (Page 1 of 3)
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