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Posted: 5/26/2020 12:00:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Yes people are going with that. As you illude to though the ATF doesnt give a fuck what the law says. If they want you they will fabricate what is required.
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Posted: 5/26/2020 12:03:14 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes people are going with that. As you illude to though the ATF doesnt give a fuck what the law says. If they want you they will fabricate what is required. Yeah that's my big concern :/ Unless I hear otherwise, I'll just stick to a KAG grip |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 1:53:47 PM EDT
[#3]
I'm passing on it for now. I'm sure that 89 degrees is technically legal. But it is one of those, "You can beat that rap, but not the ride" kinda things. No need to invite "the Man" into my life.
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Posted: 5/26/2020 1:58:19 PM EDT
[#4]
I designed, 3d printed and use an 89 degree angled foregrip. It's not vertical.
I carry a protractor in my plate carrier. My funeral, I guess. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 2:22:35 PM EDT
[#5]
I always thought the 89 degree was trying to be a bit too cute. I think if they had went ~75-80 degrees it would be more obvious it was angled & lead to a lot less karen's calling the police.
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Posted: 5/26/2020 2:30:53 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I always thought the 89 degree was trying to be a bit too cute. I think if they had went ~75-80 degrees it would be more obvious it was angled & lead to a lot less karen's calling the police. I see a ton of junior atf men on arfcom who always jump on what they think are vfgs on pistols, but has anyone ever actually gotten jammed up for an angled grip? |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 2:43:11 PM EDT
[#7]
It's going to depend on the particular agents and how good or bad their mood is. There is an opinion letter that states that the ATF distinguishes a vertical grip as being 90 degrees perpendicular to the bore. If someone was in court, the letter 'may' have some pull to a judge or jury? 90 degrees seems very specific in terms of angle but .............
I reshaped mine so that a hand can't possibly grasp it. I felt better leaving nothing to chance. I legit use mine as a hand stop and my tiny MAC pistol would be what I consider dangerous without it. I say do whatever you're comfortable with. I don't know that this line of thinking is 100% logical but...If the ATF is raiding your guns and looking for something wrong, you're already in a world of hurt anyway. 
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Posted: 5/26/2020 3:18:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Had anyone in real life ever actually called in a foregrip on a pistol? I see a ton of junior atf men on arfcom who always jump on what they think are vfgs on pistols, but has anyone ever actually gotten jammed up for an angled grip? Well I didn't say ATF, since most people just dial 911, but I wouldn't doubt if some go to the trouble of calling some federal agency. Seems like 1/2 the time I go to the range & there's more than 2 people there, someone always is kind enough to tell me how illegal everything I have is. I've gotten to the point where I just tell them thanks & I'll fix it when I get home. As far as the ATF, you must not be aware that they are famous, or infamous for changing their minds from day to day, on what they decide is legal & isn't legal. Yes, they do prosecute people who they've decided they don't like the cut of their jib. https://blog.princelaw.com/2018/10/28/atf-unhinged-prosecutions-made-up-out-of-whole-cloth-you-might-be-next/ http://gunlove.com/index.php/2018/11/02/atf-secretly-reverses-prior-laws-and-regulations/ https://www.range365.com/atf-prosecutes-ohio-man-for-ar-pistol-with-brace/?b7ImExMmLkvyKcUB.01&fbclid=IwAR0hZTTodws6YtYqzMFmmFGjL2EeJQ7XTQK46OaRW5YO05gyqqdEbvVhxUU https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/ |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 3:51:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I didn't say ATF, since most people just dial 911, but I wouldn't doubt if some go to the trouble of calling some federal agency. Seems like 1/2 the time I go to the range & there's more than 2 people there, someone always is kind enough to tell me how illegal everything I have is. I've gotten to the point where I just tell them thanks & I'll fix it when I get home. As far as the ATF, you must not be aware that they are famous, or infamous for changing their minds from day to day, on what they decide is legal & isn't legal. Yes, they do prosecute people who they've decided they don't like the cut of their jib. https://blog.princelaw.com/2018/10/28/atf-unhinged-prosecutions-made-up-out-of-whole-cloth-you-might-be-next/ http://gunlove.com/index.php/2018/11/02/atf-secretly-reverses-prior-laws-and-regulations/ https://www.range365.com/atf-prosecutes-ohio-man-for-ar-pistol-with-brace/?b7ImExMmLkvyKcUB.01&fbclid=IwAR0hZTTodws6YtYqzMFmmFGjL2EeJQ7XTQK46OaRW5YO05gyqqdEbvVhxUU https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/ Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Had anyone in real life ever actually called in a foregrip on a pistol? I see a ton of junior atf men on arfcom who always jump on what they think are vfgs on pistols, but has anyone ever actually gotten jammed up for an angled grip? Well I didn't say ATF, since most people just dial 911, but I wouldn't doubt if some go to the trouble of calling some federal agency. Seems like 1/2 the time I go to the range & there's more than 2 people there, someone always is kind enough to tell me how illegal everything I have is. I've gotten to the point where I just tell them thanks & I'll fix it when I get home. As far as the ATF, you must not be aware that they are famous, or infamous for changing their minds from day to day, on what they decide is legal & isn't legal. Yes, they do prosecute people who they've decided they don't like the cut of their jib. https://blog.princelaw.com/2018/10/28/atf-unhinged-prosecutions-made-up-out-of-whole-cloth-you-might-be-next/ http://gunlove.com/index.php/2018/11/02/atf-secretly-reverses-prior-laws-and-regulations/ https://www.range365.com/atf-prosecutes-ohio-man-for-ar-pistol-with-brace/?b7ImExMmLkvyKcUB.01&fbclid=IwAR0hZTTodws6YtYqzMFmmFGjL2EeJQ7XTQK46OaRW5YO05gyqqdEbvVhxUU https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/atf-suffers-rare-court-loss-in-ohio-short-barrel-rifle-prosecution/ Just wondering if anyone has ever gotten jammed up legally on an angled grip, or really even had anyone call 911 or any other Leo re: any kind of foregrip. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 3:51:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's going to depend on the particular agents and how good or bad their mood is. There is an opinion letter that states that the ATF distinguishes a vertical grip as being 90 degrees perpendicular to the bore. If someone was in court, the letter 'may' have some pull to a judge or jury? 90 degrees seems very specific in terms of angle but ............. I reshaped mine so that a hand can't possibly grasp it. I felt better leaving nothing to chance. I legit use mine as a hand stop and my tiny MAC pistol would be what I consider dangerous without it. I say do whatever you're comfortable with. I don't know that this line of thinking is 100% logical but...If the ATF is raiding your guns and looking for something wrong, you're already in a world of hurt anyway. https://i.postimg.cc/hv9BD5qJ/20200526-142002.jpg That's a sweet setup you got there man! Yeah If i ever did go that route, I'd definitely chop mine down a bit |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 7:14:53 AM EDT
[#11]
In case anyone needs "The Letter" -
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Posted: 5/27/2020 7:31:05 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryDo you see the flaw in this? All it takes is the opinion of an ATF agent to chance because there is no legal definition of a vertical grip. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 7:41:00 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryIt's the last sentence that will get you in trouble. FATF |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 9:08:29 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you see the flaw in this? All it takes is the opinion of an ATF agent to chance because there is no legal definition of a vertical grip. Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you see the flaw in this? All it takes is the opinion of an ATF agent to chance because there is no legal definition of a vertical grip. For me personally, it doesn't matter - once my Form 4 was approved, I pinned and welded my rugged R3 to my 11.3", so I'm over 26". For any new builder, I would just advise going 12.5" - there is literally nothing but "upsides", with sole exception being if you absolutely have to stuff it in a bag, or plane/boat compartment. As far as the opinion - it's like everyone else said: It's a "blessing from the crown" and a "whim". There *is* a Webster definition of Vertical: ver·ti·cal adjective 1. at right angles to a horizontal plane; in a direction, or having an alignment, such that the top is directly above the bottom. "the vertical axis" noun 1. a vertical line or plane. "the columns incline several degrees away from the vertical" Then there is the reality (as far as anyone knows) of no one being specifically targeted "out of the blue", based on a visual, the muzzle device being checked for welds, and the gunfighter 89 degrees or whatever it actually is, being found "illegal". Espicially in the world of Instagram - you'd think we'd have heard of something. But it's all big boy rules - use it, or don't - the various Hand-stops are just as good for C-Clamp type gripping. Do what your rank can handle. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 9:10:37 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you see the flaw in this? All it takes is the opinion of an ATF agent to chance because there is no legal definition of a vertical grip. Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you see the flaw in this? All it takes is the opinion of an ATF agent to chance because there is no legal definition of a vertical grip. I'll keep living dangerously 
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Posted: 5/27/2020 1:24:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Moved
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Posted: 5/27/2020 2:32:29 PM EDT
[#17]
All an irrelevant point unless you want to use the firearm in a crime or are an ignorant wife beater and the police confiscate your guns. The ATF isn't x-raying your home and peeking over fences.
In the famous Ohio case where a man went up against the ATF for having a LOP that exceeded the limit for a pistol, his guns were confiscated because he had beat his wife. If you want to play it SAFE then just ensure that your OAL from the buffer tube to end of barrel threads or perm muzzle device is 26-inches or more. That makes it a firearm and not a pistol or AOW. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 2:38:59 PM EDT
[#18]
What if you have your 89 degree non perpendicular fore grip mounted on a rail that happens to be 1 degree off from the barrel? Now your 89 degree non perpendicular fore grip is actually 90 degrees from the axis of the barrel. One more reason IMO that if they had one at 80 or 75 degrees, you'd for sure notice if your rail was off by 10 - 15 degrees vs 1 degree off.
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Posted: 5/27/2020 3:20:25 PM EDT
[#19]
I'll just remind folks to be careful, and to pay attention to their own state and local laws as well.
It some places, you might be able to have a pistol, but not a firearm. Yeah, the technicalities kinda suck. |
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Posted: 6/2/2020 5:55:23 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if you have your 89 degree non perpendicular fore grip mounted on a rail that happens to be 1 degree off from the barrel? Now your 89 degree non perpendicular fore grip is actually 90 degrees from the axis of the barrel. One more reason IMO that if they had one at 80 or 75 degrees, you'd for sure notice if your rail was off by 10 - 15 degrees vs 1 degree off. Like the rail scales anchor |
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Posted: 6/2/2020 9:34:43 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if you have your 89 degree non perpendicular fore grip mounted on a rail that happens to be 1 degree off from the barrel? Now your 89 degree non perpendicular fore grip is actually 90 degrees from the axis of the barrel. One more reason IMO that if they had one at 80 or 75 degrees, you'd for sure notice if your rail was off by 10 - 15 degrees vs 1 degree off. Frankly its almost unimaginable to me that anyone worries about it - if people weren't posting I'd never believe this was a thing. Look around the country right now. And gun owners sit at home concerned about if their angled foregrip is angled "enough"? |
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Posted: 6/2/2020 9:57:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want to play it SAFE then just ensure that your OAL from the buffer tube to end of barrel threads or perm muzzle device is 26-inches or more. That makes it a firearm and not a pistol or AOW. I thought this was the law the ATF came up with in 2019. 26"+ OAL and your vertical is legal. |
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