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Posted: 3/22/2023 8:42:48 PM EDT
I’ll be updating this as I progress through the build, but starting off I’m somewhat stuck on the collars for these carbines. Between otter creeks and d Wilson’s collar and the short and long collars made by Allen engineering which one would be the most visually accurate to the original? As of now I’m planning to use a daniel defense gov 12.5” barrel.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/22/2023 10:22:05 PM EDT
[#1]
I make collars for Gordons all the time, made to fit the individual barrel, bayolug needs removed and FSB reparked. The collar must rest against something solid and must be a certain length to give the correct number of turns. Recently, I made some clamps to make the OG look complete; they're aluminum and strictly cosmetic.
 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/27/2023 9:31:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By Fridgepants: I’ll be updating this as I progress through the build, but starting off I’m somewhat stuck on the collars for these carbines. Between otter creeks and d Wilson’s collar and the short and long collars made by Allen engineering which one would be the most visually accurate to the original? As of now I’m planning to use a daniel defense gov 12.5” barrel. Ron's 3 piece collar is your answer. Do you already have an AEM5? If not, see if he has any Gordon cans still available and get a 14.5. If you want it to look right, might as well go all right |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 3/31/2023 7:03:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: PPCCFI]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMCctx: Ron's 3 piece collar is your answer. Do you already have an AEM5? If not, see if he has any Gordon cans still available and get a 14.5. If you want it to look right, might as well go all right Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CMCctx: Originally Posted By Fridgepants: I’ll be updating this as I progress through the build, but starting off I’m somewhat stuck on the collars for these carbines. Between otter creeks and d Wilson’s collar and the short and long collars made by Allen engineering which one would be the most visually accurate to the original? As of now I’m planning to use a daniel defense gov 12.5” barrel. Ron's 3 piece collar is your answer. Do you already have an AEM5? If not, see if he has any Gordon cans still available and get a 14.5. If you want it to look right, might as well go all right Everything I have read about MSG Gary Gordon's carbine indicates that his was a 12.5" barrel. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/31/2023 10:30:59 PM EDT
[#4]
I am not so sure that MSG Gordon's carbine was a 12.5" barrel. I don't believe that the unit he was part of ever used 12.5" barrels at least the guys I talked to never used barrels of that length. It seems to me that until recently the only silencer available was from OPS INC and it was designed for a standard carbine length barrel (14.5"). If I understand it correctly the 12.5" barrels come from wanting to clone something that was relatively close to the original design using a later produced model from OPS INC (Now Allen Armament) that is shorter and requires a shorter barrel to seat the newer silencer correctly?
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/1/2023 10:23:53 AM EDT
[#5]
I've never heard of Allen Armament. Both of the AEM5's that I have purchased came from Allen Engineering, owned by Ron Allen. I'm not claiming with certainty that Gordon's carbine was 12.5", but everything I have read about it states his was, not that the unit used them. The 723 was 14.5", the 733 was 11.5". Many things I have read, which could be incorrect, stated that Gordon's carbine was a 723 that was cut to 12.5".
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Posted: 4/9/2023 12:10:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PPCCFI: I've never heard of Allen Armament. Both of the AEM5's that I have purchased came from Allen Engineering, owned by Ron Allen. I'm not claiming with certainty that Gordon's carbine was 12.5", but everything I have read about it states his was, not that the unit used them. The 723 was 14.5", the 733 was 11.5". Many things I have read, which could be incorrect, stated that Gordon's carbine was a 723 that was cut to 12.5". Ops 12th/aem5 didnt exist. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 4/9/2023 1:14:02 PM EDT
[#7]
What Ops Inc can existed back then? I’m in the camp it was a 723 with a 14.5” barrel.
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Posted: 4/11/2023 4:42:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Fridgepants]
[#8]
The best I can gather is if this was originally a 723 it would’ve had an 8000000 serial number. Does anyone have any info if that’s the case? Would it have had a military serial possibly with a letter prefix?
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USA
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Posted: 4/13/2023 11:14:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Yeah, oops I meant to say "Allen Engineering".
Otherwise I am still in doubt as to a 12.5" barrel having being used by MSG Gordon. |
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Posted: 4/15/2023 3:30:27 PM EDT
[#10]
All information on the can delta used can be found in the ops thread in the nfa sub forum, and the bhd thread over in the A2 sub forum.
Ron has designed a modern incarnation of the original can which can be purchased. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2023 10:41:56 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brandonbeezy: All information on the can delta used can be found in the ops thread in the nfa sub forum, and the bhd thread over in the A2 sub forum. Ron has designed a modern incarnation of the original can which can be purchased. Which one is the modern version of it? @Brandonbeezy |
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Posted: 4/16/2023 10:43:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote: Which one is the modern version of it? @Brandonbeezy M4, here's mine. 
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/17/2023 2:53:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: M4A1SOPMOD]
[#13]
Originally Posted By PPCCFI: I've never heard of Allen Armament. Both of the AEM5's that I have purchased came from Allen Engineering, owned by Ron Allen. I'm not claiming with certainty that Gordon's carbine was 12.5", but everything I have read about it states his was, not that the unit used them. The 723 was 14.5", the 733 was 11.5". Many things I have read, which could be incorrect, stated that Gordon's carbine was a 723 that was cut to 12.5". I don't know where you been reading that, but it's completely wrong. It was a 14.5 barrel. Suppressor was either an ops 3rd model or a predecessor to that. Used the factory barrel threads and sleeved over the barrel and butted up against the the 2 piece collar that clamped to the barrel/butted up against the fsb. The 12.5 barrels came about the past few years because the ops 3rd are out of production/hard to find and people wanted to get a similar look with the ops 12th/aem 5. But the ops 3rd style can is being remade now by Allen engineering. So if you're serious about a clone, that's the best way to go. |
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Posted: 4/17/2023 11:12:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By M4A1SOPMOD: I don't know where you been reading that, but it's completely wrong. It was a 14.5 barrel. Suppressor was either an ops 3rd model or a predecessor to that. Used the factory barrel threads and sleeved over the barrel and butted up against the the 2 piece collar that clamped to the barrel/butted up against the fsb. The 12.5 barrels came about the past few years because the ops 3rd are out of production/hard to find and people wanted to get a similar look with the ops 12th/aem 5. But the ops 3rd style can is being remade now by Allen engineering. So if you're serious about a clone, that's the best way to go. I’m in the 14.5 camp as well, but for my build I’m going to take the “inspired” route. I’m going to go with a 12.5” barrel, a 19charlie collar and a Sparks,NV AEM5. I’m using a mixture of Colt and modern parts to cut down on the guilt of rattle canning them. I’ll be uploading some progress photos here soon. I’m also in a bind as I have a sealed M14 mount that I want to modify to fit in the FSB slit. I’m having a hell of a time deciding what to do  |
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Posted: 4/19/2023 9:24:00 AM EDT
[#15]
Emailed
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Posted: 4/19/2023 9:24:26 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 19Charlie_84: I make collars for Gordons all the time, made to fit the individual barrel, bayolug needs removed and FSB reparked. The collar must rest against something solid and must be a certain length to give the correct number of turns. Recently, I made some clamps to make the OG look complete; they're aluminum and strictly cosmetic. https://i.imgur.com/aNXbrAg.jpg https://i.imgur.com/k7MpzMt.jpg Emailed you |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2023 3:27:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheTacticalCoyote]
[#17]
Now I am torn. There is this photo of MSG Gary Gordon and his rifle with the suppressor on it. The suppressor looks shorter than the other Ops Inc 3rd Models that I have seen on other Delta rifles.
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Posted: 4/21/2023 5:01:17 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheTacticalCoyote: Now I am torn. There is this photo of MSG Gary Gordon and his rifle with the suppressor on it. The suppressor looks shorter than the other Ops Inc 3rd Models that I have seen on other Delta rifles. https://imgdump5.novarata.net/dqavkv.jpg Ron said there was no standard suppressor for them at that point in time, some were ordered with extra baffles, some with less. Go to the ops thread and look way back. I think I'd start at page 40. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/22/2023 8:47:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Teufelmann55]
[#19]
I recently (in the last week or so) talked a fellow who was an armorer in the unit at that time and an operator from that era they both told me at that point in the unit there were only 14.5" barrels being used.
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Posted: 4/22/2023 4:07:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Teufelmann55: I recently (in the last week or so) talked a fellow who was an armorer in the unit at that time and an operator from that era they both told me at that point in the unit there were only 14.5" barrels being used. please post that in the bhd thread in the A2 sub-forum |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2023 10:19:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Ian McCollum just posted a vid on midnight brutality with an old tymey IR laser huge gooseneck thing and talked a bit about delta rifles of the time. They tried the shorter rifles but weren't as reliable in adverse conditions as delta required. They found the 14.5" was most reliable with carbine gas system; this was pre-M4 days, so they were all CAR15s. Silencers used were all custom, made to order with no standard, as others have said.
Current Gordon uppers we build today to utilize the (kinda) readily available AEM5, which uses a 12.5" barrel if collar is butted against the FSB. The collar needs to rest against something solid, FSB or barrel shoulder, or it will come loose during firing and tightened sufficiently. The AEMBrake threads is essentially where the barrel crown sits, and you need 2.5" from start of the brake threads to the start of the angle on the collar. Maths....12.5" barrel. |
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Posted: 4/23/2023 10:57:39 PM EDT
[#22]
 Augee's gun (the upper Ian borrowed) Runs an Allen Engineering M4 suppressor. Augee and a couple others were lucky enough to get their M4 in the original gunkote green from the original delta suppressors. Really sucks that Augee couldn't have been there so that Ian could have used the suppressor with it.. My M4 suppressor,   |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 4:58:11 PM EDT
[#23]
this doesnt have to do with the barrel, but does anyone know what caps fit the Aimpoint 5000 on a gordon clone?
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/12/2023 9:50:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Blackopsenjoyer]
[#24]
While there was no standard Colt 723 suppressors at this time and it's possible MSG Gordon's carbine was outfitted with a can that's slightly shorter than todays M4 suppressor, this picture is not the original. It's highly edited, zoomed in, and blown up. The angle at which the suppressor is pointed makes it appear this way (short and stubby) when you zoom in. In fact, this looks shorter than a AEM5. Unless Augee can tell us more, we'll likely never know the exact length of his suppressor. Keep in mind, the original picture was posted by Larry Vickers and is much larger and everything in the photo looks different.
With that said, I think the suppressor was at least 8" long. This seems to be confirmed by James Dietz "Valiant Stand" painting of the crash site. His art is known for being extremely accurate and takes great pride in details. He consulted Delta Snipers from BHD era and had access to family picture before creating this. Based on what Augee has said, it's the most accurate representation of what we have to go by publicly. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/12/2023 10:01:18 AM EDT
[#25]
There is a lot of people on Reddit and on this site who have claimed 12.5”. And it’s understandable because until recently, people only associated Ops Inc with the 3rd and 12th model which only reflex 2-2.5” over the barrel. However, it’s been confirmed by eye witnesses who served at the time along side MSG Gordon that it was a direct thread 14.5”. Moreover, Ron Allen at Allen Engineering, the lead engineer and manufacturer for Ops Inc at the time has also confirmed that he only ever made 14.5” DT suppressors for Delta and their carbine setups. As mentioned in this thread, Delta only used 14.5” 723’s, which has also been confirmed by multiple Delta operators. Augee also says he’s seen non public pictures of Gary Gordon’s carbine and says it was 14.5”, with aimpoint 5000, MGW carry handle mount, and surefire light attached via picatinny to the handguard. It was drilled in with a weaver rail (picatinny didn’t exist yet) to the 7:00 o’clock position. Most other Delta had it at the 6:00 based on pictures.
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Posted: 7/12/2023 1:10:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HipSh0T]
[#26]
These two links have all the info you'll need as long as you take the time to read through.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/going-for-a-1993-Somalia-car15-build-and-need-your-help/127-449652/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Ops-Inc-Allen-Engineering-Picture-and-Discussion-Thread/20-445848/ |
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Posted: 9/24/2023 12:06:20 PM EDT
[#27]
 Hello gentlemen, I am getting ready to assemble my upper using a Bloodline 12.5. Does anyone have experience with this barrel? The gas port size is way smaller than my colt 14.5 barrel that I have in stock. Thanks for all the information on this thread! Jim |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2023 8:38:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Is there an off the shelf ready to go barrel assembly that'll work with a 12.5" version of a Gordon Carbine? I'd prefer to stick with an AEM-M4 type collar in order to swap between my Mk12 Mod-isH. So far I've seen the following options:
Daniel Defense: however recent posts have indicated the barrel profile is no longer compatible with the collars Roscoe Bloodline: Same issue, no step in the barrel that could keep a collar from working B King's (Looks to be a BA barrel assembly), but the step in the barrel looks to be a bit far forward, but would it work with the AEM5-M4 collar? (https://bkingsfirearms.com/shop/ar15-barrels-223-wylde-5-56mm-300-blk-and-6-5-grendel/bkf-ar15-12-5-5-56-govt-profile-carbine-length-4150-cmv-1-7-twist-barrel-w-fsb-handguard-cap-and-delta-ring-assembly/) Any others to think of? I was also looking at Criterion and Centurion, but it appears the profiles wouldn't be compatible without machining that I'm hoping to avoid. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 12/6/2023 5:16:20 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevethePirate: Is there an off the shelf ready to go barrel assembly that'll work with a 12.5" version of a Gordon Carbine? I'd prefer to stick with an AEM-M4 type collar in order to swap between my Mk12 Mod-isH. So far I've seen the following options: Daniel Defense: however recent posts have indicated the barrel profile is no longer compatible with the collars Roscoe Bloodline: Same issue, no step in the barrel that could keep a collar from working B King's (Looks to be a BA barrel assembly), but the step in the barrel looks to be a bit far forward, but would it work with the AEM5-M4 collar? (https://bkingsfirearms.com/shop/ar15-barrels-223-wylde-5-56mm-300-blk-and-6-5-grendel/bkf-ar15-12-5-5-56-govt-profile-carbine-length-4150-cmv-1-7-twist-barrel-w-fsb-handguard-cap-and-delta-ring-assembly/) Any others to think of? I was also looking at Criterion and Centurion, but it appears the profiles wouldn't be compatible without machining that I'm hoping to avoid. You can try Charlie’s Custom. They have some barrels in stock. They use some of the barrels you mentioned but they might not be in stock, you’ll just have to use the drop down selection for your preferred barrel brand. They don’t have the three piece collar, but they do have a sleeve for the AEM5. https://charliescustomclones.com/gordon-carbine-12-5-barrel-with-aem-collar-and-brake-727-733-from-black-hawk-down/ |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 12/6/2023 5:30:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ScruffyElephant]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fridgepants: I’m in the 14.5 camp as well, but for my build I’m going to take the “inspired” route. I’m going to go with a 12.5” barrel, a 19charlie collar and a Sparks,NV AEM5. I’m using a mixture of Colt and modern parts to cut down on the guilt of rattle canning them. I’ll be uploading some progress photos here soon. I’m also in a bind as I have a sealed M14 mount that I want to modify to fit in the FSB slit. I’m having a hell of a time deciding what to do https://i.imgur.com/Cgzy9vc.jpg A Surefire M14 under the sight is more of a Blood Diamond setup, so you’re better off not cutting something irreplaceable unless you’re utterly crazy like me who’s trying to build a perfect movie replica with all correct parts. Charlie’s Customs has a https://charliescustomclones.com/gordon-carbine-12-5-barrel-with-aem-collar-and-brake-727-733-from-black-hawk-down/ It’s better IMO to mount a weaver mount to the handguard, or go full Black Hawk Down movie clone and 100mph tape/zip-tie your light to the handguard. EDIT: DD is out of stock. I meant a FN CHF 1:7 barrel |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 12/6/2023 6:00:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ScruffyElephant]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blackopsenjoyer: There is a lot of people on Reddit and on this site who have claimed 12.5”. And it’s understandable because until recently, people only associated Ops Inc with the 3rd and 12th model which only reflex 2-2.5” over the barrel. However, it’s been confirmed by eye witnesses who served at the time along side MSG Gordon that it was a direct thread 14.5”. Moreover, Ron Allen at Allen Engineering, the lead engineer and manufacturer for Ops Inc at the time has also confirmed that he only ever made 14.5” DT suppressors for Delta and their carbine setups. As mentioned in this thread, Delta only used 14.5” 723’s, which has also been confirmed by multiple Delta operators. Augee also says he’s seen non public pictures of Gary Gordon’s carbine and says it was 14.5”, with aimpoint 5000, MGW carry handle mount, and surefire light attached via picatinny to the handguard. It was drilled in with a weaver rail (picatinny didn’t exist yet) to the 7:00 o’clock position. Most other Delta had it at the 6:00 based on pictures. I finally found the answer, and it does match up to the only known photo we have! I was wondering if behind the sight if it was his thumb or light, because the hand would be in a strange pose for it to be a thumb, so your 7:00 position correlates with the photo well. I’m torn between doing my own interpretation of the clone based off Black Hawk Down or the actual gun, because I’m not too hot on the 7:00 position, well, at least for now. I do have the spare Leupold 1” rings and weaver rail for it, but I rather not have to buy another Laser Products 6P… Unless someone has a really scuffed up one they’ll sell to me for a good price. As for the rest of the items I might as well go my own route because my cosmetically worn Aimpoint 5000XD and new old stock Colt stamped ARMS#02 aren’t exactly “clone correct” for a true Gordon rifle, and not painting the optic like most of the Delta guys did (likely added it on later after the rifle was already painted?) looks kind of weird to me to an extent. I do have a 6P head Laser Products 660 I was going to use, but it probably makes more sense to use it on a 2:00 position and source an IR filter for my current A2 “723.” Also, stripped Colt A1M (C7) uppers are an absolute pain to find, let alone a good price. It would feel weird for my Blood Diamond Carbine to have more Colt receivers than my (currently building) Gordon clone, and I’m not willing to part out my only factory Colt RO723 upper I have just for the upper. |
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Posted: 2/3/2024 9:27:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brandonbeezy: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/517593/5E56FCDE-EF37-4052-8128-B95773ED3574-255-2793619.jpg Augee's gun (the upper Ian borrowed) Runs an Allen Engineering M4 suppressor. Augee and a couple others were lucky enough to get their M4 in the original gunkote green from the original delta suppressors. Really sucks that Augee couldn't have been there so that Ian could have used the suppressor with it.. My M4 suppressor, https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/517593/AE_M4_-_2_-2765476.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/517593/AE_M4_-_1_-2765475.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/517593/20230329_174408-2763169.jpg Curious about the aviation NVG's in the image with your carbine. Is there a back story? |
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