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Posted: 8/31/2021 12:59:27 PM EDT
Hey All - can anyone identify the maker of the FSB in the below pics - is this a USGI or commercial FSB?
This came off the M16A1 clone for which I recently discovered that the upper was most likely manufactured by Norinco. That clone has since been taken apart and I am trying to determine which of the parts to sell/toss vs what to salvage for future M16A1/XM177E2 clones builds.       |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 2:58:02 PM EDT
[#1]
USGI Colt c.1966-‘67.
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Posted: 8/31/2021 3:05:10 PM EDT
[#2]
Is there a drainhole under the front sight post?
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Posted: 8/31/2021 4:50:45 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there a drainhole under the front sight post? Yes |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 5:47:24 PM EDT
[#4]
Yes it does have a drain hole - glad to hear that it appears to be Colt.
Thanks all for the intel! 
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Posted: 8/31/2021 6:07:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes it does have a drain hole - glad to hear that it appears to be Colt. Thanks all for the intel! what were the markings on the barrel it came off of? the spacing on the taper pin holes don't look like Colt. i don't know if Colt ever sold undrilled FSBs on the open market. casting looks a little rough too for Colt. |
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Posted: 8/31/2021 6:57:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: USGI Colt c.1966-‘67. That would be off a MP 12 barrel, which I'm holding in my hand right now inspecting. I'm seeing better finish work, overall smoothness, etc on the known Colt. |
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Posted: 9/1/2021 8:24:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: what were the markings on the barrel it came off of? the spacing on the taper pin holes don't look like Colt. i don't know if Colt ever sold undrilled FSBs on the open market. casting looks a little rough too for Colt. There are no markings anywhere on the barrel. I can take some pics and post here for review, but the pics will only show an unmarked parkerized barrel. Is there any particular locations on an unmarked barrel to photograph that may hint as to its origin? |
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Posted: 9/1/2021 9:37:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are no markings anywhere on the barrel. I can take some pics and post here for review, but the pics will only show an unmarked parkerized barrel. Is there any particular locations on an unmarked barrel to photograph that may hint as to its origin? maybe use the overall profile. sometimes the MP marking btw the FSB legs can be very faint. |
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Posted: 9/2/2021 10:49:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Well I'll be... Under proper lighting I had a closer look at my A1 barrel that the FSB in question was installed on and noticed a marking under the handguard section that I had previously missed - 'G 5.56 NATO 1/12'. I Googled this but nothing came up. Any ideas as to who manufactured this barrel and/or does it help ID the manufacturer of the FSB?
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Posted: 9/2/2021 11:52:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well I'll be... Under proper lighting I had a closer look at my A1 barrel that the FSB in question was installed on and noticed a marking under the handguard section that I had previously missed - 'G 5.56 NATO 1/12'. I Googled this but nothing came up. Any ideas as to who manufactured this barrel and/or does it help ID the manufacturer of the FSB? https://i.postimg.cc/rKCGPHFr/8-B04-F31-C-8239-4170-948-C-4773-A93-DA1-E1.png Where did you get this upper from again? That might be a late 60's GM (General Motors) barrel if we can rule out it being a newer production Green Mountain. We'd need a bit more information on origin, age, etc. |
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Posted: 9/3/2021 1:57:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where did you get this upper from again? That might be a late 60's GM (General Motors) barrel if we can rule out it being a newer production Green Mountain. We'd need a bit more information on origin, age, etc. Unfortunately I don't have any info on the who what when why or how's of its origin. A buddy bought it and an XM16 clone as a package deal from a member over on the FalFiles back in 2016. He kept the XM16 and offered up the M16A1 clone to me. Here are some pics I found from back when I first took possession of it.      A while back I was asking about the rifle's painted upper receiver and was advised to strip the black paint to better ID it. I did so and was first advised that it appeared to be Colt and then later advised it was most likely Norinco made due to the lack of a vertical line on the cam pin bulge - here is a link to that thread. I appreciate any intel folks around here can provide on this clone. |
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Posted: 9/3/2021 3:02:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: …noticed a marking under the handguard section that I had previously missed - 'G 5.56 NATO 1/12'. As I understand things, “5.56 NATO” originated in the 1980’s. |
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Posted: 9/3/2021 4:58:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As I understand things, “5.56 NATO” originated in the 1980’s. Negative. M16s started being marked 5.56 in the late 60s |
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Posted: 9/3/2021 5:51:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately I don't have any info on the who what when why or how's of its origin. A buddy bought it and an XM16 clone as a package deal from a member over on the FalFiles back in 2016. He kept the XM16 and offered up the M16A1 clone to me. Here are some pics I found from back when I first took possession of it. https://i.postimg.cc/SnJzg8Nn/IMG-6183-1.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/HrR8RxVB/IMG-6184.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/bsYn2W7H/IMG-6185.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/Lh3f52b8/IMG-6186.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/RNPH1G9r/IMG-6187.jpg A while back I was asking about the rifle's painted upper receiver and was advised to strip the black paint to better ID it. I did so and was first advised that it appeared to be Colt and then later advised it was most likely Norinco made due to the lack of a vertical line on the cam pin bulge - here is a link to that thread. I appreciate any intel folks around here can provide on this clone. I'm really not your guy when it comes to the GM stuff but there are a few around who know what to look for so let's wait for them. |
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Posted: 9/3/2021 7:35:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Negative. M16s started being marked 5.56 in the late 60s My understanding is that NATO didn’t adopt/standardize 5.56 until the 1980’s, starting with SS109. |
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Posted: 9/3/2021 9:20:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.56, sure. But NATO? My understanding is that NATO didn’t adopt/standardize 5.56 until the 1980’s, starting with SS109. I know that 67ish era marked M16s were marked “Cal. 5.56mm” I see what you’re saying, not sure when the ammo was considered a NATO round and if the M193 was considered NATO or not. I defer to @aeyoung I believe I’m right when I say that people get confused and think that early AR-15s marked “.223” should not shoot full 5.56 NATO loads, but from everything I’ve read and heard, the chamber in those rifles is more similar to the modern NATO chamber rather than the modern .223 chamber. Alex may need to correct me on that as well. |
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Posted: 9/3/2021 11:55:14 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 5.56, sure. But NATO? My understanding is that NATO didn’t adopt/standardize 5.56 until the 1980’s, starting with SS109. The 5.56 round was adopted by NATO in 1980 and Green Mountain opened it's doors in 1976, so I'm going to say it's a Green Mountain barrel. ETA : I had to do some Google Foo to find this out, I was extremely surprised to find out Green Mountain has been turning out barrels for nearly 50 years. |
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Posted: 9/4/2021 12:56:49 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know that 67ish era marked M16s were marked “Cal. 5.56mm” I see what you’re saying, not sure when the ammo was considered a NATO round and if the M193 was considered NATO or not. I defer to @aeyoung I believe I’m right when I say that people get confused and think that early AR-15s marked “.223” should not shoot full 5.56 NATO loads, but from everything I’ve read and heard, the chamber in those rifles is more similar to the modern NATO chamber rather than the modern .223 chamber. Alex may need to correct me on that as well. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 5.56, sure. But NATO? My understanding is that NATO didn’t adopt/standardize 5.56 until the 1980’s, starting with SS109. I know that 67ish era marked M16s were marked “Cal. 5.56mm” I see what you’re saying, not sure when the ammo was considered a NATO round and if the M193 was considered NATO or not. I defer to @aeyoung I believe I’m right when I say that people get confused and think that early AR-15s marked “.223” should not shoot full 5.56 NATO loads, but from everything I’ve read and heard, the chamber in those rifles is more similar to the modern NATO chamber rather than the modern .223 chamber. Alex may need to correct me on that as well. They changed to 5.56 as part of the A1 program in 1968 and nato adopted it much later. Idk exactly when. |
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Posted: 9/4/2021 12:31:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They changed to 5.56 as part of the A1 program in 1968 and nato adopted it much later. Idk exactly when. Was M193 labeled as a NATO round at that time in the US though? |
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Posted: 9/4/2021 1:26:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Barrel is green mountain. Mine is marked the same way.
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Posted: 9/4/2021 2:13:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Was M193 labeled as a NATO round at that time in the US though? |
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Posted: 9/4/2021 3:39:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ll be curious to hear what aeyoung or others have to say, but I doubt that M193 could accurately be called “5.56 NATO” even today. From what I’ve read, the NATO spec was fashioned after FN’s SS109; i.e. the 62-grain round we adopted as M855, and the reason that the M16A2 needed a twist faster than the A1’s 1/12. On October 28th,1980 NATO officially adopted the 5.56mm developed in the late 70's by Belgium FN - Herstal, SS109, SS110, and SS111 cartridge family. |
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Posted: 9/4/2021 6:32:04 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Barrel is green mountain. Mine is marked the same way. Yep..... Green Mountain barrel. |
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Posted: 9/7/2021 12:25:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep..... Green Mountain barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Barrel is green mountain. Mine is marked the same way. Yep..... Green Mountain barrel. Excellent news! Thanks all - appreciate the responses and the lesson on the 5.56/NATO timeline. While Green Mountain is not USGI, I think its way better than unknown or overseas manufacture... How about the FSB - some say Colt others are not so sure - is there any way to be certain? Back to the topic of the identifying my mysterious upper that is lacking the vertical lines on the cam pin bulge area. It was reported that all USGI uppers had the vertical lines and that missing the vertical lines is indicative that it is likely Norinco made. Were there any exceptions to this rule? |
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