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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:03:17 AM EDT
Been running a 1-8x LPVO, but not thrilled about the 17 oz weight. Unfortunately, that's about as light as it gets when it comes to LPVO's, so I started considering other options, and that's when I had my epiphany.
Why not ditch the LPVO for a lighter weight variable, and then just add an RMR (1.2 oz) on a 45-degree offset mount (1.4 oz)? A few good options: Leupold VX-2 3-9x33 (9.3 oz) https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rimfire-scopes/vx-2-ultralight-3-9x33mm Leupold 2-7x33 (only 9.9 oz) https://www.leupold.com/scopes/compact-scopes/vx-2-2-7x33mm Leupold 6x36 (10 oz) https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rifle-scopes/fx-ii-6x36mm (edit: I guess the x33 line was discontinued, but there are still other options in similar weight range) The end result? * Faster target acquisition at 1x, because you can rotate the rifle to the red dot at 1x faster than moving a throw lever * Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe the 3-9x or 2-7x optics provide better light gathering, less distortion and better eyebox at their top magnification than a 1-8x or 1-6x would * The total weight is 4.5 oz less than the lightest LPVO UPDATE: I purchased the SWFA 2-10 ultralight (9.9 oz), but didn't like the glass...seemed dark, eyebox was small, and reticle out of focus for me. So I returned that, and picked up a Leupold 2-7x28 (8.5 oz). So glad I did because the Leupold is perfect, and even lighter. Using the RMR on an offset mount is incredible. Super fast target acquisition. I plan to leave the Leupold on 7x most of the time, and rotating the gun makes for a very quick transition. So, so much better than my 1-8x LPVO...and total weight is much less. The total weight of both optics and both mounts comes out to 14.5 oz, compared to about 20 oz for my 1-8x LPVO + mount, a very significant reduction. Pics: https://imgur.com/a/QYdlliq   
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:36:27 AM EDT
[#1]
* Faster target acquisition at 1x, because you can rotate the rifle to the red dot at 1x faster than moving a throw lever
I have been using a LPVO and a Swampfox Kingslayer for a year on a 45 MI PIC mount. I went with this kind of set up after reading Jeff Gurwitchs articles in Defense Review. Absolutely a great set up and fast. With decent ammo, I can make all targets at 300 and 550 with LPVO and from 5 to 300 make all targets with the MRDS. I think what you are planning will work fine. I was not as concerned with weight on mine, more about sight back-up and speed. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:45:36 AM EDT
[#2]
I've been saying this for years.
An LPVO that weighs more than a 2-10 range scope, doesn't do 1X as well as a red dot, and doesn't do 4X + better than an ACOG, along with an offset red dot? Fuckin' stoopid. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 12:30:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Probably because most people spend their time at 1x with the occasional long distance shot is my guess.
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Posted: 6/28/2020 1:17:49 PM EDT
[#4]
I think it's a great idea. I did a little reading up before changing my plans. I haven't been eyeing the ee at all until the last week. I see a lot of lpvo for sale. Not sure if that's because everyone is using them or if they are used and people have decided against them.
I just scrapped plans for a mepro 21 with magnifier and instead went with a leupold freedom 3-9x40 and leupold dpp on the dpp mount. I tried to convince myself to go with a lpvo but just couldn't find anything that changed my mind. One of the things I really like about the dpp is the rear site option. It allows you to have the variable scope on top, mrds at 45* and backup Irons at 45* as well. This is on my 16" 'do everything' AR |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 2:04:54 PM EDT
[#5]
I just found the perfect lightweight optic for this..
https://www.swfa.com/swfa-ss-2-5-10x32-ultralight-rifle-scope.html Just 9 oz! Only downside to this approach of running an optic plus offset reflex sight is that it's not legal in a lot of 3-gun or other comp scenes. Stupid. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 2:38:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Not legal for 3gun?
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Posted: 6/28/2020 3:01:46 PM EDT
[#7]
I had the same thought once. Tried it in 3-Gun and it sucked.
Went back to LPVO and never looked back. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 3:03:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not legal for 3gun? It is in Open. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 9:52:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Goes to show just how much of it is preference. I read till my eyes bled the last week of so and, there's a lot of both camps. Some love it, others don't.
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:44:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had the same thought once. Tried it in 3-Gun and it sucked. Went back to LPVO and never looked back. What didn't work for you? |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:49:04 PM EDT
[#11]
The bigger the objective diameter and the greater the magnification, the more parallax error you get at ranges other than the fixed parallax setting. You also wont be getting great glass, a large eyebox, illumination, and rugged adjustments with low weight scopes. They sacrifice things for low weight... nothing in optics is free.
There are lighter LPVO scopes out there. Like a Leupold VX5HD 1-5x24 CDS-ZL2 at 14.7 oz. Not all of the true 1x daytime bright reticle LPVO are 17+ ounce beasts. |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 10:51:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think it's a great idea. I did a little reading up before changing my plans. I haven't been eyeing the ee at all until the last week. I see a lot of lpvo for sale. Not sure if that's because everyone is using them or if they are used and people have decided against them. I just scrapped plans for a mepro 21 with magnifier and instead went with a leupold freedom 3-9x40 and leupold dpp on the dpp mount. I tried to convince myself to go with a lpvo but just couldn't find anything that changed my mind. One of the things I really like about the dpp is the rear site option. It allows you to have the variable scope on top, mrds at 45* and backup Irons at 45* as well. This is on my 16" 'do everything' AR And what AR15 front site works with a DPP rear pistol sight? Because I dont know of any... |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:16:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The bigger the objective diameter and the greater the magnification, the more parallax error you get at ranges other than the fixed parallax setting. If they don't have one that fits, shouldn't be too hard to make one: aperture for parallax reduction When the eye focuses on the reticle after alignment, the aperture ghosts out.  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/28/2020 11:23:15 PM EDT
[#14]
I thought of trying the front iron off my cz scorpion.
A side from that I hadn't given it much thought. I was waiting to get the parts here and mounted before I dug into it. Have you tried to make it work? |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 9:49:54 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had the same thought once. Tried it in 3-Gun and it sucked. Went back to LPVO and never looked back. Pretty much my thoughts, too. I think offsets are quite useful, but they tend to work best close-in. I'm not sure I'd want to try tagging 100yd target arrays with an offset RDS. It is unclear to me what the OP's expectations are with regards to use and speed. Some people simply don't put a big premium on being super fast, but do put a lot of value on lightweight, and I think there's validity to that approach if you can accept the performance trade-off. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:38:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What didn't work for you? It’s slower and the performance simply isn’t there. Using a secondary optic works fairly well in a couple of conditions, but not in the way the OP is looking for. Just keep your LPVO at 1X for everything within 250 yards or so. If it’s slowing you down you either have a crap optic or it’s you. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:41:38 AM EDT
[#17]
As long as we are discussing alternatives the status quo, has anybody considered switching them around?
By that I mean running the dot sight on the top rail as the primary since it is fast and handles the majority of shots. Then put something small like a mini-ACOG on an offset rail to handle the less common shots that are at longer range or that demand greater accuracy. Or maybe I just didn't get enough sleep last night. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:49:32 AM EDT
[#18]
SupersetCA made a video on ACOG & offset red dot setups, it was timed as slower than a TR24 1-4x. Note that a standalone red dot has been timed as faster than the TR24 on 1x (albeit just barely), and obviously the ACOG should be a lot better than an LPVO at 4x.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzYyXlHIVlo It's a specific course and a sample size of 1, but it illustrates that offset red dots aren't as good as inline red dots. I don't think using an RMR would improve on that as they are built more for durability than optical quality and ease of use. The mid-power scope + offset dot would likely work well on a long range setup with a requirement for only backup CQB capability, so if that's what you're looking for, it may be an ideal suit. I would still think you'd be making serious sacrifices in durability by using a scope that light. That being said I don't think you'd have much to worry about from parallax within the effective range of an intermediate cartridge, as long as your fixed parallax distance is at a reasonably long range your offset will probably only be a couple inches even at several hundred yards. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:21:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s slower and the performance simply isn’t there. Using a secondary optic works fairly well in a couple of conditions, but not in the way the OP is looking for. Just keep your LPVO at 1X for everything within 250 yards or so. If it’s slowing you down you either have a crap optic or it’s you. I don't think my LPVO is slowing me down. Competition speed isn't my main focus anyway, I'm more interested in just shedding excess weight to make it more comfortable to carry around and/or be able to hold it on target unsupported for extended periods of time. I like that the LPVO enables me to reach out to make precision shots at longer ranges without sacrificing the ability to engage targets up close. If I can save 5 or 6 oz by replacing that monolithic optic with 2 optics that still allow me to accomplish both of those things reasonably well, then it's well worth it to me! If it turns out that I can transition between offset reflex and magnified optic faster than a throw lever, then that will be a bonus, but not a requirement. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:25:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As long as we are discussing alternatives the status quo, has anybody considered switching them around? By that I mean running the dot sight on the top rail as the primary since it is fast and handles the majority of shots. Then put something small like a mini-ACOG on an offset rail to handle the less common shots that are at longer range or that demand greater accuracy. Or maybe I just didn't get enough sleep last night. The thought has occurred to me, but I think having a larger optic offset like that would make it feel unbalanced, always putting a tug trying to pull it over. Also I think shooting in the offset position is not quite as comfy or accurate, which is fine for making close range quick shots, but would be more frustrating when you are trying to make precision long range shots. The other wacky idea I'm thinking about is perhaps mounting a 45 degree offset VFG to make shooting with an offset reflex feel a little more natural |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 12:28:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought of trying the front iron off my cz scorpion. A side from that I hadn't given it much thought. I was waiting to get the parts here and mounted before I dug into it. Have you tried to make it work? Yup, I'm taking the plunge. Just ordered an RMR, 45 degree offset and lightweight scope...will let you know how it feels in comparison to my 1-8x LPVO when they come in |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 1:01:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The other wacky idea I'm thinking about is perhaps mounting a 45 degree offset VFG to make shooting with an offset reflex feel a little more natural I have thought about trying that but not for the same reason. If you do, let us know what you think. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 1:15:47 PM EDT
[#23]
OP, you might be surprised how effective 2x is at close range with some practice. It's not as fast as 1x, but with a bright dot or even a well designed reticle, it's quite effective. I have both 2-7s and a 2-10 (as well as LPVOs), and I'm very happy with them. I strongly dislike heavy scopes, and the offset and top-mounted mini-red dot didn't work any better than 2x for me. The market seems to be moving away from light scopes, though. If you want one, get it sooner rather than later.
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Posted: 6/29/2020 1:19:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The bigger the objective diameter and the greater the magnification, the more parallax error you get at ranges other than the fixed parallax setting. You also wont be getting great glass, a large eyebox, illumination, and rugged adjustments with low weight scopes. They sacrifice things for low weight... nothing in optics is free. There are lighter LPVO scopes out there. Like a Leupold VX5HD 1-5x24 CDS-ZL2 at 14.7 oz. Not all of the true 1x daytime bright reticle LPVO are 17+ ounce beasts. That hasn't been my experience. You won't get adjustable parallax or first focal plane in a lightweight scope, but you can get everything else. The market is moving towards "features" that add weight, though. So many buyers want big tubes, big adjustment ranges, first focal plane, and illumination without thinking about the tradeoffs that have to be made for those things, with a big one being weight. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 3:23:22 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup, I'm taking the plunge. Just ordered an RMR, 45 degree offset and lightweight scope...will let you know how it feels in comparison to my 1-8x LPVO when they come in Did you choose the RMR based on weight or did other factors come into play? |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 3:35:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SupersetCA made a video on ACOG & offset red dot setups, it was timed as slower than a TR24 1-4x. Note that a standalone red dot has been timed as faster than the TR24 on 1x (albeit just barely), and obviously the ACOG should be a lot better than an LPVO at 4x. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzYyXlHIVlo It's a specific course and a sample size of 1, but it illustrates that offset red dots aren't as good as inline red dots. I don't think using an RMR would improve on that as they are built more for durability than optical quality and ease of use. The mid-power scope + offset dot would likely work well on a long range setup with a requirement for only backup CQB capability, so if that's what you're looking for, it may be an ideal suit. I would still think you'd be making serious sacrifices in durability by using a scope that light. That being said I don't think you'd have much to worry about from parallax within the effective range of an intermediate cartridge, as long as your fixed parallax distance is at a reasonably long range your offset will probably only be a couple inches even at several hundred yards. I wish more shooters would do timer-based stuff but even from my very short subscription list, it's a small minority that do. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 4:14:07 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What 45* mount did you get? Did you choose the RMR based on weight or did other factors come into play? Because every time I purchase a battery powered optic I end up regretting it. I bought an atibal 1-8x last year, and now after 6 months of being turned off, the battery is already dead. Same thing with my vortex venom (I'm selling both of them now if anyone is interested) I already own dual-illuminated RMR, ACOG, and 3-9x accupoint and could not be happier with them. I love that they are always on, and never run out of battery, and are not reliant on a perpetual resupply of batteries that might not be possible in the post-apocalyptic future. I've moved my existing RMR over to my glock, but planning to pick up 2 more dual-illuminated RMRs, one as a primary optic on my home defense AR pistol, and a second one to use as offset mount on my all-purpose AR (this thread). I chose the Leapers UTG because it's the lightest and cheapest offset mount: https://www.amazon.com/Leapers-Super-Mount-Degree-Angle/dp/B07QGG31TP There are a number of other mount options I was also considering, and might consider further if I run into issues with the Leapers: https://www.trex-arms.com/store/T-REX-Offset-Mount/ https://arisakadefense.com/products/offset-optic-mount https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/ac32078 |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 5:00:58 PM EDT
[#28]
I’ve never seen the point of using a LPVO with a MRDS. If I were going to use an RDS up close anyway, I’d just as soon use a non-LPVO, given the compromises LPVOs make to get a good 1X. The whole point of using an LPVO is to cover as many bases as possible in a single optic, and adding additional optics just seems to counteract that whole philosophy.
If I’m going to use two optics, I’d rather two two optics with non-overlapping niches that are well suited to their respective niche. The ACOG/RMR combo I’m so fond of, for example. The 1X optic is great, and the 4X optic is great, and I’m not left with a giant and heavy main optic just to do 1X worse than the 1X optic already riding piggyback. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 5:34:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve never seen the point of using a LPVO with a MRDS. If I were going to use an RDS up close anyway, I’d just as soon use a non-LPVO, given the compromises LPVOs make to get a good 1X. The whole point of using an LPVO is to cover as many bases as possible in a single optic, and adding additional optics just seems to counteract that whole philosophy. If I’m going to use two optics, I’d rather two two optics with non-overlapping niches that are well suited to their respective niche. The ACOG/RMR combo I’m so fond of, for example. The 1X optic is great, and the 4X optic is great, and I’m not left with a giant and heavy main optic just to do 1X worse than the 1X optic already riding piggyback. Kinda agree. But with Holosuns being a viable option you can run a offset RDS for not much more money then a set a good BUIS. Weight is pretty much the same and it you'll take up less real estate on the front of the rail and have your backup optic. I don't think the redundancy is a bad thing IMO. I'm running a 1-10 Razor with a RMR offset on a Badger C1 mount and it's a pretty nice setup. Good to have options. I'm planning on trying either a Acog or prism with a piggyback RMR for my next build. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 6:16:53 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve never seen the point of using a LPVO with a MRDS. If I were going to use an RDS up close anyway, I’d just as soon use a non-LPVO, given the compromises LPVOs make to get a good 1X. The whole point of using an LPVO is to cover as many bases as possible in a single optic, and adding additional optics just seems to counteract that whole philosophy. Quote HistoryQuoted: I’ve never seen the point of using a LPVO with a MRDS. If I were going to use an RDS up close anyway, I’d just as soon use a non-LPVO, given the compromises LPVOs make to get a good 1X. The whole point of using an LPVO is to cover as many bases as possible in a single optic, and adding additional optics just seems to counteract that whole philosophy. Completely agree with this If I’m going to use two optics, I’d rather two two optics with non-overlapping niches that are well suited to their respective niche. The ACOG/RMR combo I’m so fond of, for example. The 1X optic is great, and the 4X optic is great, and I’m not left with a giant and heavy main optic just to do 1X worse than the 1X optic already riding piggyback. The only lightweight ACOG's are fixed at 3.5x which is okay as a compromise between 1x and 6x, but once you add a dedicated 1x RMR, I'd rather not be using a compromised magnification. If they made a lightweight 6x ACOG (ie, under 10 oz), I would be all over that!! Sadly they don't. I looked for a lightweight fixed 6x (under 10 oz), and it doesn't seem to exist. Surprisingly, I can find 2-7x, 3-9x, or 2.5-10x variable scopes that are under 10oz, but no fixed ones. Doesn't make sense because variable requires more components and should be heavier |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 6:37:34 PM EDT
[#31]
The 3.5x ACOG is one of the larger models out there, are you perhaps referring to the 3x TA50?
ACOGs are intended as warzone optics, they will be built with some measure of armor around the components. Keep in mind that you'll have to buy a mount for a variable scope which will increase the weight. (The ACOG also requires a mount, but those weigh less than standard scope mounts.) |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 8:22:58 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Completely agree with this The only lightweight ACOG's are fixed at 3.5x which is okay as a compromise between 1x and 6x, but once you add a dedicated 1x RMR, I'd rather not be using a compromised magnification. If they made a lightweight 6x ACOG (ie, under 10 oz), I would be all over that!! Sadly they don't. I looked for a lightweight fixed 6x (under 10 oz), and it doesn't seem to exist. Surprisingly, I can find 2-7x, 3-9x, or 2.5-10x variable scopes that are under 10oz, but no fixed ones. Doesn't make sense because variable requires more components and should be heavier Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I’ve never seen the point of using a LPVO with a MRDS. If I were going to use an RDS up close anyway, I’d just as soon use a non-LPVO, given the compromises LPVOs make to get a good 1X. The whole point of using an LPVO is to cover as many bases as possible in a single optic, and adding additional optics just seems to counteract that whole philosophy. Completely agree with this If I’m going to use two optics, I’d rather two two optics with non-overlapping niches that are well suited to their respective niche. The ACOG/RMR combo I’m so fond of, for example. The 1X optic is great, and the 4X optic is great, and I’m not left with a giant and heavy main optic just to do 1X worse than the 1X optic already riding piggyback. The only lightweight ACOG's are fixed at 3.5x which is okay as a compromise between 1x and 6x, but once you add a dedicated 1x RMR, I'd rather not be using a compromised magnification. If they made a lightweight 6x ACOG (ie, under 10 oz), I would be all over that!! Sadly they don't. I looked for a lightweight fixed 6x (under 10 oz), and it doesn't seem to exist. Surprisingly, I can find 2-7x, 3-9x, or 2.5-10x variable scopes that are under 10oz, but no fixed ones. Doesn't make sense because variable requires more components and should be heavier Yeah it’s a shame prism optics tend to scale pretty directly in size relative to their magnification. I’d imagine a 6X ACOG that’s anything relatively small would come with a lot of optical compromises. As an aside, I do have a 648 on my L129 clone, which is Trijicon’s 6X ACOG. It legitimately feels like a cinder block riding atop your rifle, but it is NICE optically. It really just feels like I’m 6X closer to the target, it’s easy to forget you’re even looking through an optic. And I’m assuming you’re meaning either the TA33 or the TA50, because the 3.5X TA11 is on the heavier side of the ACOG family. The 4X is about the best pairing for an RMR for me, in that it’s such a nice blend of magnification and small(ish) size. It’s slow up close, but that’s partly why I like it so much paired with an RMR. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 8:55:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 3.5x ACOG is one of the larger models out there, are you perhaps referring to the 3x TA50? ACOGs are intended as warzone optics, they will be built with some measure of armor around the components. Keep in mind that you'll have to buy a mount for a variable scope which will increase the weight. (The ACOG also requires a mount, but those weigh less than standard scope mounts.) Yeah I was referring to my TA50. Forgot it was only 3x. I'm quite a fan of this optic regardless. It's built like a tank with it's forged aluminum housing, and still only weighs 5.8 oz. Love it! In fact that's what I was using as a primary optic, but I switched to the LPVO because I just needed more magnification for the tiny targets they were putting out at 200 yards in my local 3gun events. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 9:22:09 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah it’s a shame prism optics tend to scale pretty directly in size relative to their magnification. I’d imagine a 6X ACOG that’s anything relatively small would come with a lot of optical compromises. That may be, but If a 2.5-10x variable scope can be made at 9.5 oz, then it must be possible to make a fixed 6x even lighter, because they could reduce the length to only that needed for 6x and then remove the erector zoom system. Just nobody does it. |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 9:27:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I was referring to my TA50. Forgot it was only 3x. I'm quite a fan of this optic regardless. It's built like a tank with it's forged aluminum housing, and still only weighs 5.8 oz. Love it! In fact that's what I was using as a primary optic, but I switched to the LPVO because I just needed more magnification for the tiny targets they were putting out at 200 yards in my local 3gun events. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The 3.5x ACOG is one of the larger models out there, are you perhaps referring to the 3x TA50? ACOGs are intended as warzone optics, they will be built with some measure of armor around the components. Keep in mind that you'll have to buy a mount for a variable scope which will increase the weight. (The ACOG also requires a mount, but those weigh less than standard scope mounts.) Yeah I was referring to my TA50. Forgot it was only 3x. I'm quite a fan of this optic regardless. It's built like a tank with it's forged aluminum housing, and still only weighs 5.8 oz. Love it! In fact that's what I was using as a primary optic, but I switched to the LPVO because I just needed more magnification for the tiny targets they were putting out at 200 yards in my local 3gun events. I think the 50 is about the only ACOG I’ve never had. I kept hearing how short the eye relief is and it always turned me off of it, but now that I think about it I shoot NTCH so I doubt it’d much matter. People say the same about the 31 and I love the 31. I’ll have to give it a shot one of these days. I currently have a spare 33 I can’t even find a use for though so I doubt it happens any time soon  I’ll get around to it one of these days!
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:12:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Been running a 1-8x LPVO, but not thrilled about the 17 oz weight. Unfortunately, that's about as light as it gets when it comes to LPVO's, so I started considering other options, and that's when I had my epiphany. Why not ditch the LPVO for a lighter weight variable, and then just add an RMR (1.2 oz) on a 45-degree offset mount (1.4 oz)? A few good options: Leupold VX-2 3-9x33 (9.3 oz) https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rimfire-scopes/vx-2-ultralight-3-9x33mm Leupold 2-7x33 (only 9.9 oz) https://www.leupold.com/scopes/compact-scopes/vx-2-2-7x33mm Leupold 6x36 (10 oz) https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rifle-scopes/fx-ii-6x36mm (edit: I guess the x33 line was discontinued, but there are still other options in similar weight range) The end result? * Faster target acquisition at 1x, because you can rotate the rifle to the red dot at 1x faster than moving a throw lever * Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe the 3-9x or 2-7x optics provide better light gathering, less distortion and better eyebox at their top magnification than a 1-8x or 1-6x would * The total weight is 4.5 oz less than the lightest LPVO Maybe a tactical mid powered variable up top with the mentioned mini-reflex red dot at 45 degrees? The new Leupold Freedom 3-9x40 AR Firedot update on the VX-R Patrol comes to mind. 15.3 ounces. A Deltapoint Pro is 1.9 ounces plus a couple for a mount. Maybe not 3 Gun legal except in open class, but one hell of a general purpose combo. Both optics are motion-activated and plenty rugged. The Firedot technology is mature and quite reliable. I know that 15 ounces for the scope is a bit above what you are seeking, but it’s a tactical, illuminated mid-powered scope with mil/mil turrets and reticle for longer range hold overs and hold offs. I don’t think there is another 3-9x illuminated tactical scope with a rugged 30mm main tube that is any lighter. Low light performance and exit pupil at higher power will be waaaaay better than an LPVO and the DPP gets on target a lot quicker than trying to find the target in the LPVO at 1x. It’s FOV is much larger than an RMR. Batteries in both have been lasting for years. My Recce type setup. VX-R Patrol and offset DPP. These are QD mounted. You can save several ounces by using fixed mounts, if you don’t need QD return to zero capability.  |
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Posted: 6/29/2020 10:38:38 PM EDT
[#37]
You have my exact setup but my freedom scope is not the fire dot.
Headed to check out fire dot now as this scope I'm isi g was meamt for another ar. Op - I didn't know rmr was no battery at all. I thought they had one. I'm with you though. My big red dots are mepro 21s, no battery at all. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 12:45:51 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the 50 is about the only ACOG I’ve never had. I kept hearing how short the eye relief is and it always turned me off of it, The 50 is the only ACOG I've tried and liked enough to keep instead of selling it off. Small, light weight, decent optics, nice illumination. It does have short eye relief which has made it difficult to mount on some builds but it's never been a problem while actually shooting with it. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 9:44:39 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know that 15 ounces for the scope is a bit above what you are seeking, but it’s a tactical, illuminated mid-powered scope with mil/mil turrets and reticle for longer range hold overs and hold offs. I don’t think there is another 3-9x illuminated tactical scope with a rugged 30mm main tube that is any lighter. That sounds like a great scope, but Trijicon accupoint Tr20-2g is lighter and very similar https://www.trijicon.com/products/details/tr20-2g Its got fiber optic plus tritium, mil mil reticle, and only weighs 13.4 oz. The only downside is the moa turrets that don't match the reticle. I use this in my AR10 it's great. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 9:50:17 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the 50 is about the only ACOG I’ve never had. I kept hearing how short the eye relief is and it always turned me off of it, but now that I think about it I shoot NTCH so I doubt it’d much matter. People say the same about the 31 and I love the 31. I’ll have to give it a shot one of these days. I currently have a spare 33 I can’t even find a use for though so I doubt it happens any time soon I’ll get around to it one of these days!The short eye relief is actually a positive feature! Shorter eye relief means your eye will be closer to the glass which means the glass fills more of your field of view and makes it appear to have a larger objective, this is what allows such a small and light scope to still be quick and easy to see through. Mount it on a light recoil gun and it's not an issue. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 10:07:25 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The other wacky idea I'm thinking about is perhaps mounting a 45 degree offset VFG to make shooting with an offset reflex feel a little more natural The only place I've seen that done is in a Video Game called Escape from Tarkov. And I don't draw my shooting inspiration or ideas from video games. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 11:21:29 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only place I've seen that done is in a Video Game called Escape from Tarkov. And I don't draw my shooting inspiration or ideas from video games. Im thinking it might put the arm or maybe more accurately shoulder joint in a less stressed, more natural position. Similar to how nobody punches with their hand in a vertical position or you dont see vertical handle bar/grips on a motorcycle/dirtbike/atv. One downside would be storage in a case with offset grip attached. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 11:32:59 AM EDT
[#43]
If going with an offset red dot, why get a variable scope? A fixed 4x would be alot lighter and you aren't going to use the scope for close targets why pay for a variable in cost and weight. That said, I hunted deer for years with a fixed 4x and never had any trouble killing them @ 20 yards or 200.
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Posted: 6/30/2020 2:12:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If going with an offset red dot, why get a variable scope? A fixed 4x would be alot lighter and you aren't going to use the scope for close targets why pay for a variable in cost and weight. That said, I hunted deer for years with a fixed 4x and never had any trouble killing them @ 20 yards or 200. For deer hunting I agree that 4x max magnification is plenty. However if plinking small targets at long range in a competition 4x may not be enough to even see the target. And If it was a standoff between myself using a 4x and someone else using a 10x, chances are they would be able to pick me off before I could see them. I prefer an optic that allows me to take full advantage of the ballistic capabilities if the rifle |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 8:34:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im thinking it might put the arm or maybe more accurately shoulder joint in a less stressed, more natural position. Similar to how nobody punches with their hand in a vertical position or you dont see vertical handle bar/grips on a motorcycle/dirtbike/atv. One downside would be storage in a case with offset grip attached. |
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Posted: 6/30/2020 9:30:01 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im thinking it might put the arm or maybe more accurately shoulder joint in a less stressed, more natural position. Similar to how nobody punches with their hand in a vertical position or you dont see vertical handle bar/grips on a motorcycle/dirtbike/atv. One downside would be storage in a case with offset grip attached. VFGs are pretty bad under the best of circumstances. I don’t see this being a great idea. |
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Posted: 8/4/2020 8:43:26 PM EDT
[#47]
Finally got this worked out, and edited my original post to show pics. Absolutely love this setup, and would recommend to anyone who is thinking about it!
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Posted: 8/6/2020 12:00:16 AM EDT
[#48]
I've been thinking about doing something like this for a while.
I'm pretty set on running a piggybacked RDS for passive night vision shooting, and it's also super fast for close up stuff. I don't really need the low end mag if I'm gonna use the RDS for 1x stuff anyway. So I'd rather have a lighter, cheaper scope with better magnification and optics. The vx freedom 3-9x line is 12oz and has me curious. I'm trying decide if a CDS dial has any merit on a 12.5 though or if I should just stick to a bdc reticle, and then trying to decide between firedot or no |
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Posted: 8/6/2020 12:23:10 AM EDT
[#49]
I’ve been debating this same thing. I got used to a similar setup with ACOGs with RMRs on top, and have come to prefer having an RMR for use with NVGs, regardless. It seems like a pretty decent idea, but I’ve been saving for thermals so daytime optics spendings is on hold for me.
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Posted: 8/6/2020 12:38:22 PM EDT
[#50]
I have a 3-9 freedom fire dot duplex, and freedom tri-moa non fire dot. I can't give a valid review because I don't have experience with scopes, these are my first.
Im using the Leupold DPP on a 45 joebob rail. I put it on a half inch riser and put the galloway rear sight in the DPP half way up from bottom. It lines up nicely with a front magpul sight on another joebob 45 rail. This eliminates the need for a rear backup sight. The Joebob 45 drops a little lower than the others I tested, and the rifle a bit sleeker because of it. If anyone want pictures let me know. |
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