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Oh Shit. Molon is back, and I'm in on first.
Always love to read your review. |
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I have been waiting for this one!
Okay, just finished reading your review. Looks like the Criterion is a smidge more accurate than the Noveske N4. Whew! That means I don’t need to buy the Criterion barrel. Right? Lol. Accuracy Evaluations of 6 Different Noveske barrels Noveske 16" N4 light Recce Noveske's chrome-lined barrels have 5.56mm NATO chambers and 1:7" twists. I performed an accuracy evaluation of my Noveske 16” N4 Light Recce upper following my usual protocol. Testing was performed from a distance of 100 yards. Firing was conducted from a concrete bench with the free-float handguard resting in a Sinclair Bench Rest. The rear stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear bag. Wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe. A Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax free at 100 yards was used for sighting. Using hand-loaded, match grade ammunition I fired three, 10-shot groups in a row. The extreme spreads of those groups measured: 1.29” 1.18” 1.31” for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 1.26”. I over-layed those three groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the composite group was 0.37”. After firing the above three groups, I fired an additional five, 10-shot groups in a row using the same set-up for a total of eight, 10-shot groups. The average extreme spread for all eight groups was 1.24”. I over-layed all eight groups on each using RSI Shooting Lab to form an 80-shot composite group. The mean radius for that composite group was 0.39”. I found Molon’s individual review of a Noveske N4 light barrel but it’s missing a lot of pics. |
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Yeah this was certainly a write up I’ve been looking forward to. Thanks!
As being pretty well rounded in my ignorance, my take away from this is to not immediately judge a barrel “out of the box” before it has had a chance to break in. |
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when I first joined, I used to run google script codes to find your posts on ARF. It’s good to see you back in tech forums, putting solid data in every post for all of us. Appreciate the work you’ve put in!
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Just goes to show how upgrading and modernizing things usually results in worse performance than the standard mil-spec parts they’re supposed to improve upon.
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@molon
Did you happen to snag velocities by chance? Thanks for the write up. |
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Quoted: How about we get a statistically significant sample size before drawing that conclusion? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Just goes to show how upgrading and modernizing things usually results in worse performance than the standard mil-spec parts they're supposed to improve upon. It would appear the criterion barrel improved upon the colt barrel. |
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Quoted: It would appear the criterion barrel improved upon the colt barrel. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just goes to show how upgrading and modernizing things usually results in worse performance than the standard mil-spec parts they're supposed to improve upon. It would appear the criterion barrel improved upon the colt barrel. It would appear that way, but that .078” gas port on a .625” gas block journal is excessive and not by a little bit, and the Wylde chamber doesn’t bring anything positive to this type of barrel. The .05” smaller mean radius is not a significant enough difference to really be attributed to the barrel’s design/construction, and it’s not relevant to the intended use of that type of barrel. Criterion just built another overgassed, Wylde/whatever chambered, commercial barrel in an overcrowded sea of commercial junk. ETA: That barrel with a gas block is $358 + shipping + wait time from Criterion. I’d take a carbine gassed Colt barrel over that all day every day, not even considering that Colt barrels are easy to get for about $140 less. |
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Quoted: How about we get a statistically significant sample size before drawing that conclusion? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Just goes to show how upgrading and modernizing things usually results in worse performance than the standard mil-spec parts they're supposed to improve upon. My sample size is 20 years training and wrenching on ARs. I’m not an super SME, but I’ve seen a bit. .078” port on a .625” journal with a Wylde chamber is a barrel built for light use with light .223 ammo or/and gassed to ‘cycle everything’, IE: it will eject with the internet gun guy’s A5H-whatever buffer, 87 coil tactical spring, and Tula steel cased ammo. That guy is a big segment of the market, but he can choose from any barrel maker and get something like that for half the price. Criterion placed themselves in same space as the budget brands on specs, but way over what it costs to get a better barrel for hard/actual use. |
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mmm 30 shot composite groups with mean radius given. Molon have you shot the hybrid line of barrels in comparison to the core?
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Quoted: It would appear that way, but that .078” gas port on a .625” gas block journal is excessive and not by a little bit, and the Wylde chamber doesn’t bring anything positive to this type of barrel. The .05” smaller mean radius is not a significant enough difference to really be attributed to the barrel’s design/construction, and it’s not relevant to the intended use of that type of barrel. Criterion just built another overgassed, Wylde/whatever chambered, commercial barrel in an overcrowded sea of commercial junk. ETA: That barrel with a gas block is $358 + shipping + wait time from Criterion. I’d take a carbine gassed Colt barrel over that all day every day, not even considering that Colt barrels are easy to get for about $140 less. View Quote I have the 16 inch core barrel on my coyote hunting gun. I have gotten very similar accuracy results that molon got. I have always said mine is overgassed, even though criterion markets their core barrels as gassed for suppressed use. Turns out it is just marketing. While this is a good barrel, I think there are other good options that are gassed more conservatively and get very similar accuracy results. |
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Quoted: It would appear that way, but that .078” gas port on a .625” gas block journal is excessive and not by a little bit, and the Wylde chamber doesn’t bring anything positive to this type of barrel. The .05” smaller mean radius is not a significant enough difference to really be attributed to the barrel’s design/construction, and it’s not relevant to the intended use of that type of barrel. Criterion just built another overgassed, Wylde/whatever chambered, commercial barrel in an overcrowded sea of commercial junk. ETA: That barrel with a gas block is $358 + shipping + wait time from Criterion. I’d take a carbine gassed Colt barrel over that all day every day, not even considering that Colt barrels are easy to get for about $140 less. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just goes to show how upgrading and modernizing things usually results in worse performance than the standard mil-spec parts they're supposed to improve upon. It would appear the criterion barrel improved upon the colt barrel. It would appear that way, but that .078” gas port on a .625” gas block journal is excessive and not by a little bit, and the Wylde chamber doesn’t bring anything positive to this type of barrel. The .05” smaller mean radius is not a significant enough difference to really be attributed to the barrel’s design/construction, and it’s not relevant to the intended use of that type of barrel. Criterion just built another overgassed, Wylde/whatever chambered, commercial barrel in an overcrowded sea of commercial junk. ETA: That barrel with a gas block is $358 + shipping + wait time from Criterion. I’d take a carbine gassed Colt barrel over that all day every day, not even considering that Colt barrels are easy to get for about $140 less. I was going to ask about the gas port size, but didn’t. However, it seems that my “gut feeling” was right. I am just a long time AR enthusiast with several courses under my belt. I have picked up some great info from this site from some knowledgeable folks, so I know enough to get myself in trouble. Lol. It’s great to have people like yourself and Molon on-board that have valid data and real world experience to share and to explain why things are “good to go” or where the design fell short and expose weakenesses. @samuse do you believe the Noveske 16” middy N4 light barrels are overgassed? And what would be the “right” gas port diameter for a 14.5”/16” middy? I wanted to have my 16” N4 light barrel cut down to 14.7” but the Noveske rep advised against it saying the gas port was good for the 16” length, not something shorter. |
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Quoted: It would appear that way, but that .078” gas port on a .625” gas block journal is excessive and not by a little bit, and the Wylde chamber doesn’t bring anything positive to this type of barrel. The .05” smaller mean radius is not a significant enough difference to really be attributed to the barrel’s design/construction, and it’s not relevant to the intended use of that type of barrel. Criterion just built another overgassed, Wylde/whatever chambered, commercial barrel in an overcrowded sea of commercial junk. ETA: That barrel with a gas block is $358 + shipping + wait time from Criterion. I’d take a carbine gassed Colt barrel over that all day every day, not even considering that Colt barrels are easy to get for about $140 less. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just goes to show how upgrading and modernizing things usually results in worse performance than the standard mil-spec parts they're supposed to improve upon. It would appear the criterion barrel improved upon the colt barrel. It would appear that way, but that .078” gas port on a .625” gas block journal is excessive and not by a little bit, and the Wylde chamber doesn’t bring anything positive to this type of barrel. The .05” smaller mean radius is not a significant enough difference to really be attributed to the barrel’s design/construction, and it’s not relevant to the intended use of that type of barrel. Criterion just built another overgassed, Wylde/whatever chambered, commercial barrel in an overcrowded sea of commercial junk. ETA: That barrel with a gas block is $358 + shipping + wait time from Criterion. I’d take a carbine gassed Colt barrel over that all day every day, not even considering that Colt barrels are easy to get for about $140 less. I can restrict gas flow. I cannot improve the accuracy in a given barrel. Ymmv. |
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Quoted: I can restrict gas flow. I cannot improve the accuracy in a given barrel. Ymmv. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just goes to show how upgrading and modernizing things usually results in worse performance than the standard mil-spec parts they're supposed to improve upon. It would appear the criterion barrel improved upon the colt barrel. It would appear that way, but that .078” gas port on a .625” gas block journal is excessive and not by a little bit, and the Wylde chamber doesn’t bring anything positive to this type of barrel. The .05” smaller mean radius is not a significant enough difference to really be attributed to the barrel’s design/construction, and it’s not relevant to the intended use of that type of barrel. Criterion just built another overgassed, Wylde/whatever chambered, commercial barrel in an overcrowded sea of commercial junk. ETA: That barrel with a gas block is $358 + shipping + wait time from Criterion. I’d take a carbine gassed Colt barrel over that all day every day, not even considering that Colt barrels are easy to get for about $140 less. I can restrict gas flow. I cannot improve the accuracy in a given barrel. Ymmv. The accuracy of the Core barrel vs the 6920 was so close that you couldn’t give a nod to either one, even if all you did was Molon style accuracy evals. I would strongly prefer a proper 5.56 chamber and 5.56 appropriate size port. Because I shoot 5.56 and it gets hot, dirty, and stays that way for long while. I don’t doubt that it’s a quality barrel, but I don’t see anything about it, other than profile, that could be considered an improvement over a 16” Colt carbine barrel. |
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Thank you for the time and effort. This is a great write up.
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Quoted: I would strongly prefer a proper 5.56 chamber and 5.56 appropriate size port. Because I shoot 5.56 and it gets hot, dirty, and stays that way for long while. View Quote Agreed. @samuse But doesn’t the chamber also play a part in the overall accuracy of a barrel? If so, how much? And how much does it affect reliability? I know this has been discussed ad nauseum here, and I have an idea as to what your answer may be, but I’m curious to hear what you have to say. @Molon also wondering what your overall thoughts are as well. I am sincerely asking, but I know that this is derailing the thread a bit. |
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i have a 12.5 core. i have not done precision tests or accuracy tests. it wears an EXPS on top.
i does operate with H2+blue PERFECTLY. i did get a BRT tube for mixed use suppressed, i have yet to shoot it with the new tube, but i did get a reduced sprinco just in case. going towards the comments about how colt is still better etc, thats fine. hang some weight on the end and lets see which has less POI shift with a can. which one balances better. i think thats what the CORE is marketed towards. i have yet to test with my sandman as its still in jail at 223 days i like your tests molon. i follow them every time you post. do you have a suppressor that you can use to compare POI shifts? |
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^ Lol. With that gas port and chamber they aren’t thinking about suppressors at all.
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Hi,
How is the gas port size related to the journal size? Thanks, Mark |
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Quoted: It would appear that way, but that .078” gas port on a .625” gas block journal is excessive and not by a little bit, and the Wylde chamber doesn’t bring anything positive to this type of barrel. The .05” smaller mean radius is not a significant enough difference to really be attributed to the barrel’s design/construction, and it’s not relevant to the intended use of that type of barrel. Criterion just built another overgassed, Wylde/whatever chambered, commercial barrel in an overcrowded sea of commercial junk. ETA: That barrel with a gas block is $358 + shipping + wait time from Criterion. I’d take a carbine gassed Colt barrel over that all day every day, not even considering that Colt barrels are easy to get for about $140 less. View Quote Hi, How is the gas port size related to the journal size? Thanks, Mark |
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Quoted: The accuracy of the Core barrel vs the 6920 was so close that you couldn’t give a nod to either one, even if all you did was Molon style accuracy evals. I would strongly prefer a proper 5.56 chamber and 5.56 appropriate size port. Because I shoot 5.56 and it gets hot, dirty, and stays that way for long while. I don’t doubt that it’s a quality barrel, but I don’t see anything about it, other than profile, that could be considered an improvement over a 16” Colt carbine barrel. View Quote You can conduct virtually no significant comparative analysis between the Criterion and Colt precision with the given data. With what, two loads? You need to do a handful with different quality ammo to determine max precision along with mean and mode values etc. These are good data points, showing that neither are bad and both can at least provide precision that is acceptable for most carbine use cases. But it doesn’t necessarily show the full potential of either barrel. |
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Quoted: ^ Lol. With that gas port and chamber they aren’t thinking about suppressors at all. View Quote not entirely true, good blanket statement. alot of people run adjustable gas when building, so their port doesnt mean shit to be honest. i for one do not use adjustable gas, i feel they are a unpredictable variable that can fail. murphys law. why i tune with buffers and tubes. nevertheless, with the actual contour of the barrel, id love to see if it would make a difference, wouldnt you? |
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If i am not mistaken, samuse isn’t arguing that the Criterion isn’t better because it’s accuracy isn’t a helluva lot better, but, rather that the Colt is better because the Criterion has a bigger gas port and a smaller diameter gas journal that will be much more affected by gas erosion and will overgas the system even more over time. At least that I what I am getting from what he wrote, but I could be completely wrong.
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Quoted: I have the 16 inch core barrel on my coyote hunting gun. I have gotten very similar accuracy results that molon got. I have always said mine is overgassed, even though criterion markets their core barrels as gassed for suppressed use. Turns out it is just marketing. While this is a good barrel, I think there are other good options that are gassed more conservatively and get very similar accuracy results. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: It would appear that way, but that .078” gas port on a .625” gas block journal is excessive and not by a little bit, and the Wylde chamber doesn’t bring anything positive to this type of barrel. The .05” smaller mean radius is not a significant enough difference to really be attributed to the barrel’s design/construction, and it’s not relevant to the intended use of that type of barrel. Criterion just built another overgassed, Wylde/whatever chambered, commercial barrel in an overcrowded sea of commercial junk. ETA: That barrel with a gas block is $358 + shipping + wait time from Criterion. I’d take a carbine gassed Colt barrel over that all day every day, not even considering that Colt barrels are easy to get for about $140 less. I have the 16 inch core barrel on my coyote hunting gun. I have gotten very similar accuracy results that molon got. I have always said mine is overgassed, even though criterion markets their core barrels as gassed for suppressed use. Turns out it is just marketing. While this is a good barrel, I think there are other good options that are gassed more conservatively and get very similar accuracy results. My experience has been the same. Definitely over gassed, especially suppressed. I'm going to be putting a BRT gas tube on mine. Very accurate for what the barrel is. Mine loves the ADI 69gr SMK's. |
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Quoted: If i am not mistaken, samuse isn’t arguing that the Criterion isn’t better because it’s accuracy isn’t a helluva lot better, but, rather that the Colt is better because the Criterion has a bigger gas port and a smaller diameter gas journal that will be much more affected by gas erosion and will overgas the system even more over time. At least that I what I am getting from what he wrote, but I could be completely wrong. View Quote Exactly this. |
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Quoted: not entirely true, good blanket statement. alot of people run adjustable gas when building, so their port doesnt mean shit to be honest. i for one do not use adjustable gas, i feel they are a unpredictable variable that can fail. murphys law. why i tune with buffers and tubes. nevertheless, with the actual contour of the barrel, id love to see if it would make a difference, wouldnt you? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: ^ Lol. With that gas port and chamber they aren’t thinking about suppressors at all. not entirely true, good blanket statement. alot of people run adjustable gas when building, so their port doesnt mean shit to be honest. i for one do not use adjustable gas, i feel they are a unpredictable variable that can fail. murphys law. why i tune with buffers and tubes. nevertheless, with the actual contour of the barrel, id love to see if it would make a difference, wouldnt you? If they don’t disclose gas port size and tell you that you’re gonna need an adjustable block or a BRT tube to run full power ammo / suppressed, then they’re not about it. I like the contour of the barrel a lot. A lot better than my 16” M4 profile carbines. |
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So what would have been the more logical choice for a gas port on this barrel, .073?
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Quoted: If they don’t disclose gas port size and tell you that you’re gonna need an adjustable block or a BRT tube to run full power ammo / suppressed, then they’re not about it. I like the contour of the barrel a lot. A lot better than my 16” M4 profile carbines. View Quote i agree 100% on the gas. i could be more tame on the 16", but on my 12.5, blue+H2, its absolutely perfect, being a lefty no comment how it is suppressed. id love to see some testing on the profile though as i was saying initially before, that is what im trying to say, not trying to say anything else. im very curious how hanging a can off the end affects accuracy with their contour. maybe we can get lucky and see some POI testing by Molon, his tests are fantastic and full of detail. |
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Quoted: So what would have been the more logical choice for a gas port on this barrel, .073? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: So what would have been the more logical choice for a gas port on this barrel, .073? I like .071” on a 16” mid, but yeah, .073” would have been a lot better. Quoted: i agree 100% on the gas. i could be more tame on the 16", but on my 12.5, blue+H2, its absolutely perfect, being a lefty no comment how it is suppressed. id love to see some testing on the profile though as i was saying initially before, that is what im trying to say, not trying to say anything else. im very curious how hanging a can off the end affects accuracy with their contour. maybe we can get lucky and see some POI testing by Molon, his tests are fantastic and full of detail. I kinda think that running extra power springs and heavier than H buffers is a band-aid solution to make it run more than it is ‘tuning’, especially on a brand new barrel. There’s a few barrel makers out there that do it, but they’re few and far between. I just don’t like starting out overgassed and running heavier stuff on the back end because it’s only going to get worse. I recently replaced a still good shooting 6920 barrel at somewhere around 13-15K rounds because it had gotten a little harsh as the cases went by. It had a hard short life and spent the last half with an H3 buffer. I want one that runs right with an H right out of the box because they don’t last forever. |
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I can't speak on the longer systems, but my 12.5 core is gassed fine. I'm around 5k through it and there hasn't been any accuracy degrading yet. I'm not going to derail this anymore-if somebody would like to continue I'd be happy to start a new thread.
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Quoted: https://criterionbarrels.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/15140-CR-Stamp-scaled.jpg No relief cut at base of muzzle threads. Lots of AR barrel manufacturers do this but it's not proper. Proof does it right. View Quote This is a nice feature that prevents muzzle device shims from shifting around during assembly. What is the downside? |
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Might be an argument for it being a feature if it was more machine ops. It's less. Done due to laziness in manufacture because the most common muzzle devices don't care (ie, A2 with crush washer).
For precise mounting, IE, can mounts, it causes no end of problems. There will be a radius at that base which will almost always keep a washer/shim that has an ID which would just clear the unrelieved part's OD, from sitting flat on the shoulder face. Many washers that are spec'd to clear the thread major will hit that unrelieved part. Muzzle devices that do not require timing will almost always (or at least "a lot of the time") just stop when they hit the unrelieved part, instead of bottom out on the shoulder. In your case, the minimum thickness of a peel washer (or color coded set of washers) when the device is timed correctly will almost always be shorter/thinner than the length of that unrelieved part. This isn't a particular condemnation, as I have a bunch of old and new Noveske barrels with the same thing, and it is pretty common for AR barrels to be left this way. Proof does it right, though, as I mentioned. I usually buy my barrels long and cut and rethread them to the length I prefer anyway. |
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Thanks for the review Molon.
As I see it, the great value in these barrels is the balance and their ability to shoot nearly all ammo quite well. Overgassed? Probably. Absolutely the most accurate barrel ever? Of course not, and neither is the Colt SOCOM. Haters aside, I think it's a step forward, picking up where Noveske left off. BCM tinkered with it a little with their enhanced medium weight fluted, which is a great barrel too. Good to see long-known bolt gun barrel principles making their way into the AR world. |
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I really like the profile, I don’t understand why it’s not more common. Heck, why is it not the most common ??
How does the Wylde chamber differ from Noveske chamber? |
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Quoted: I really like the profile, I don't understand why it's not more common. Heck, why is it not the most common ?? How does the Wylde chamber differ from Noveske chamber? View Quote |
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Thank you for your well conducted and presented tests. Always best in class.
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Thanks for posting these tests @molon . I could read your evaluations all day.
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Thank you Molon! For 20 years I have thoroughly enjoyed your amazing contributions to ARFCOM. Your posts are truly a great gift. We are all grateful for your time and thoughts.
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