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Posted: 7/25/2023 4:39:28 PM EDT
Thanks in advance. What I'm looking for is that my steps below never fall out of legality. While we may disagree with the spirit of these NFA laws and ATF rulings, I am desiring to maintain legality through this whole process.
Am I ok if I do the following in this sequence? 1 . Purchase stripped lower receiver. It would be purchased as an "other" (not rifle, not handgun) so that it could be made into a pistol or a rifle. 2. Build out the lower, keep the buffer tube blank...no brace, no stock. 3. I'd probably purchase a complete upper...let's just arbitrarily say 10 inch barrel. At this point, my understanding is that I have a currently legal AR pistol. 4. Engrave my name and address onto the receiver (this is something I'm cloudy on). 5. ATF Form 1. $200 stamp. 6. Upon approval from ATF, slap a rifle stock on the buffer tube. At this point, my understanding is that I would have a currently legal AR SBR with a tax stamp. Am I missing something? Is this an advisable route? Thanks again, C. |
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So far I'm not in jail so this process worked at least once...
1. Buy Lower 2. Form 1 3. Wait 4. Engrave 5. Build what you should be able to do without 2-4 If you have to be able to use it during #3 then insert your steps 2/3 after you submit the Form-1 |
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Originally Posted By leakycow: Thanks in advance. What I'm looking for is that my steps below never fall out of legality. While we may disagree with the spirit of these NFA laws and ATF rulings, I am desiring to maintain legality through this whole process. Am I ok if I do the following in this sequence? 1 . Purchase stripped lower receiver. It would be purchased as an "other" (not rifle, not handgun) so that it could be made into a pistol or a rifle. 2. Build out the lower, keep the buffer tube blank...no brace, no stock. 3. I'd probably purchase a complete upper...let's just arbitrarily say 10 inch barrel. At this point, my understanding is that I have a currently legal AR pistol. 4. Engrave my name and address onto the receiver (this is something I'm cloudy on). 5. ATF Form 1. $200 stamp. 6. Upon approval from ATF, slap a rifle stock on the buffer tube. At this point, my understanding is that I would have a currently legal AR SBR with a tax stamp. Am I missing something? Is this an advisable route? Thanks again, C. View Quote Looks fine, but I wouldn't engrave anything until I got approval. You can go ahead and install a 6-pos buffer tube, buffer and spring and it is still a legal pistol. The only think you cannot do is legally attach a stock or brace until you get approval. |
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Cool, thanks for that info.
You just had a gunsmith do the engraving? |
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Thanks, man.
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As long as you don't "make" the SBR before you have the approved Form 1, you can do the other steps in whatever order makes sense.
Some people wait until the Form 1 is approved before engraving. Some don't. I got a stripped 9mm lower engraved before I installed the LPK. There's a risk if the lower is out of spec, but it worked out for me. I already had the short 9mm upper on an AR pistol with 9mm ENDOMAG conversion, which is why I was building a dedicated 9mm lower. This was in 2020 before the brace crap. I should have sold the 9mm upper and bought a 300 BO upper instead, but that's another story. Edit: I had Tarheel do my engraving https://tarheelstatefirearms.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=119 |
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Your 60 days late!
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Check out the Armory and the Short Barreled Rifle or General NFA questions if you want to go NFA.
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Your plan looks fine. You can build the complete gun, engraved and all and along as you don't put the stock on until it's approved you're legal.
Edit: If you're looking to have it engraved locally, I'd suggest looking at some jewelry shops. A lot of them do engraving. Look up the size, depth and information required though. It's specific. |
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Originally Posted By Stowe: Your plan looks fine. You can build the complete gun, engraved and all and along as you don't put the stock on until it's approved you're legal. Edit: If you're looking to have it engraved locally, I'd suggest looking at some jewelry shops. A lot of them do engraving. Look up the size, depth and information required though. It's specific. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By chumpmiester: If you take a frame/receiver to anyone that is NOT a FFL then you must stay with the frame/receiver the entire time. IE it can not leave your possession. View Quote If you engrave it before its approved, why wouldn't you be able to leave it? I get that you can't once it's an SBR. Before approval though it's just a regular receiver. And actually, as long as it IS just a receiver (i.e. doesnt have a short barrel on it) it's really still not an sbr. Now I'm really curious as to what you know that I don't. Not saying youre wrong. Genuinely asking |
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Originally Posted By Stowe: If you engrave it before its approved, why wouldn't you be able to leave it? I get that you can't once it's an SBR. Before approval though it's just a regular receiver. And actually, as long as it IS just a receiver (i.e. doesnt have a short barrel on it) it's really still not an sbr. Now I'm really curious as to what you know that I don't. Not saying youre wrong. Genuinely asking View Quote I could be mistaken, but I think as long as the receiver doesn't spend the night you can leave it with a non-FFL for work such as pin/weld, engraving, paint, etc. A receiver is still treated as a gun, whether SBR or not, and would have to be transferred as such for a long term stay. |
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I think that's getting more into a state specific thing. Here (the communist state of colorado) I'm sure that would apply. You have to transfer guns through an ffl for private sales. Most places though I don't see how it would really matter. Before our stupid transfer law I could trade my neighbor a .22 for a case of beer. Why couldn't I leave a gun at a place to be engraved? Again, not saying anyone is wrong. Just trying to understand. If that's a thing, then it's probably something I should know
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Originally Posted By s4s4u: I could be mistaken, but I think as long as the receiver doesn't spend the night you can leave it with a non-FFL for work such as pin/weld, engraving, paint, etc. A receiver is still treated as a gun, whether SBR or not, and would have to be transferred as such for a long term stay. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By Stowe: If you engrave it before its approved, why wouldn't you be able to leave it? I get that you can't once it's an SBR. Before approval though it's just a regular receiver. And actually, as long as it IS just a receiver (i.e. doesnt have a short barrel on it) it's really still not an sbr. Now I'm really curious as to what you know that I don't. Not saying youre wrong. Genuinely asking I could be mistaken, but I think as long as the receiver doesn't spend the night you can leave it with a non-FFL for work such as pin/weld, engraving, paint, etc. A receiver is still treated as a gun, whether SBR or not, and would have to be transferred as such for a long term stay. You can leave a serialized frame receiver with a gun smith or another FFL and they will NOT have to log it into their bound books IF and only IF they return the firearm to the owner that same day. You can NOT leave a serialized frame/receiver with a non FFL holder, you have to stay with it the entire time. This has been covered many times in the NFA section. Now if you are using an 80% frame/receiver and you take it to a non FFL holder then you can leave it as long as you have not done anything to the 80% receiver. Per the ATF once you drill a single hole then it magically becomes a firearm. |
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Originally Posted By s4s4u: I could be mistaken, but I think as long as the receiver doesn't spend the night you can leave it with a non-FFL for work such as pin/weld, engraving, paint, etc. A receiver is still treated as a gun, whether SBR or not, and would have to be transferred as such for a long term stay. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By s4s4u: Originally Posted By Stowe: If you engrave it before its approved, why wouldn't you be able to leave it? I get that you can't once it's an SBR. Before approval though it's just a regular receiver. And actually, as long as it IS just a receiver (i.e. doesnt have a short barrel on it) it's really still not an sbr. Now I'm really curious as to what you know that I don't. Not saying youre wrong. Genuinely asking I could be mistaken, but I think as long as the receiver doesn't spend the night you can leave it with a non-FFL for work such as pin/weld, engraving, paint, etc. A receiver is still treated as a gun, whether SBR or not, and would have to be transferred as such for a long term stay. It was my understanding that it is only NFA rules restricted (such as possession), so long as NFA SBR configured. A lower without the upper, would no longer be an SBR, and not subject to SBR possession regulations. Meaning you can leave it in the possession of others, subject to the restrictions of any other normal firearm. My knowledge and experience on this all though is sparse - Is that understanding correct? |
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That's correct. It is only an SBR (or SBS) when it is configured with the magic short barrel. The lower itself, with no upper is not in and of itself an NFA item. If you put a 16" or longer upper on it, then it is also no longer an NFA item.
A couple of the Q&A's from the ATF's site: Q: What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)? A: While a receiver alone may be classified as a firearm under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR). Q: I possess a properly registered SBR or SBS. I intend to strip the receiver and remove the barrel prior to selling the receiver. Is the bare receiver still subject to regulation under the NFA as a SBR or SBS? A: A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA. Although the previously registered firearm would remain registered unless the possessor notified the NFA Branch of the change, there is no provision in statute or regulation requiring registration of a firearm without a barrel because its physical characteristics would make it only a GCA firearm pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3)(B). If the subsequent owner buys the receiver as a GCA firearm and installs a barrel less than 16 inches in length (SBR) or 18 inches in length (SBS), the firearm would be subject to a $200 making tax and registration under the NFA by the manufacturer or maker of the SBR or SBS. Because registration depends upon the stated intent of the applicant, there is no provision to allow registration of a NFA firearm by anyone other than the maker or manufacturer. |
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Makes me glad I ask questions to the right people.
Who knew, right? Newbies, ask away, but seek someone who can reference the statutes, even if that person is an attorney, then they will show you the statute as part of the process. Some of the gun law advisors found on these forums need to read some more before they quote gospel, and advise the newbies. |
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