User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 2:11:55 AM EDT
[#1]
Those who bitch about CHF are comparing to cut rifled match barrels, IIRC. Average CHF is probably better than average button-rifled.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 2:57:50 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those who bitch about CHF are comparing to cut rifled match barrels, IIRC. Average CHF is probably better than average button-rifled. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 7:48:27 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Concur. CHF rifling is generally “better” dimensionally than chrome lined = better accuracy. By a lot? No. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 9:58:17 AM EDT
[#4]
There are truly accurate CHF barrels out there. TRGs come to mind.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 10:06:21 AM EDT
[#5]
My 223 Tikka T3x has a CHF barrel, very accurate barrel.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 10:52:02 AM EDT
[#6]
Bravo says firearms says its hammer forged barrel on uppers has "outstanding accuracy" and a chrome bore and chamber. Any disagreement?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 11:11:23 AM EDT
[#7]
It’s an FN hammered barrel. They have various grades but the one BCM uses is a strong performer in the service rifle class.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 12:02:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bravo says firearms says its hammer forged barrel on uppers has "outstanding accuracy" and a chrome bore and chamber. Any disagreement? BCM bbls have not been known for " outstanding accuracy " traditionally. (Not to say that they are shit barrels). What accuracy expectations do you have? Intended ammo? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 12:25:28 PM EDT
[#9]
How a barrel is made matters less than how it’s finished. If you aren’t shooting high power or something similar almost any barrel is accurate enough.
What are your expectations. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 12:57:55 PM EDT
[#10]
My accuracy desires are to at least match the M4 and similar military rifles in M16 platform. Don't know about ammo. Will have to experiment.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 1:00:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My accuracy desires are to at least match the M4 and similar military rifles in M16 platform. Don't know about ammo. BCM CHF will do that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 2:08:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: My accuracy desires are to at least match the M4 and similar military rifles in M16 platform. Don't know about ammo. Will have to experiment. Pretty much and mainstream manufacturer will do that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 2:30:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Hammer forged barrels are the cheapest to produce after making a huge investment in equipment. They are a quality barrel manufactured on an industrial scale.
All modern barrels are of very high quality. With that being said, nobody is shooting chrome lined hammer forged barrels at 1000 yards and winning at the national level. Button rifled and cut rifled barrels are in the winners circle at all the national championships, both long range and benchrest. Nobody shoots chrome lined barrels at this level of competition. Button rifled barrels have the smoothest surface finish after being machined, cut rifled barrels are hand lapped to perfect their surface finish. Match grade ammo will shoot to approximately 1 moa or better at 100 yards from virtually any quality barrel in an AR-15. I own a Colt 16" 1/9 carbine that shoots .8 moa with 52 grain Sierra MatchKings. It's a freak of nature. Anyone who thinks they can buy a Krieger or Bartlein barrel and shoot 1 moa with with 55 grain FMJ 5.56mm ammo is in for a rude awakening. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 2:56:09 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hammer forged barrels are the cheapest to produce after making a huge investment in equipment. They are a quality barrel manufactured on an industrial scale. All modern barrels are of very high quality. With that being said, nobody is shooting chrome lined hammer forged barrels at 1000 yards and winning at the national level. Button rifled and cut rifled barrels are in the winners circle at all the national championships, both long range and benchrest. Nobody shoots chrome lined barrels at this level of competition. Button rifled barrels have the smoothest surface finish after being machined, cut rifled barrels are hand lapped to perfect their surface finish. Match grade ammo will shoot to approximately 1 moa or better at 100 yards from virtually any quality barrel in an AR-15. I own a Colt 16" 1/9 carbine that shoots .8 moa with 52 grain Sierra MatchKings. It's a freak of nature. Anyone who thinks they can buy a Krieger or Bartlein barrel and shoot 1 moa with with 55 grain FMJ 5.56mm ammo is in for a rude awakening. I have had very good luck with DD and Centurion HF barrels. Accuracy is around MOA with them. A BCM i had wasn't bad either but was closer to 2 moa. They all fit their roles and performed well Gas port diameter is also an important consideration when buying iMO |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 6:12:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Thanks to all who replied.
So Iigwelder, ss I understand what you are posting, in regard to accuracy, BCM Cold Hammer Forged Barrels on its AR-15 rifles will at least match or perhaps do better when compared with other M-16, M-4 service rifles. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 9:11:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks to all who replied. So Iigwelder, ss I understand what you are posting, in regard to accuracy, BCM Cold Hammer Forged Barrels on its AR-15 rifles will at least match or perhaps do better when compared with other M-16, M-4 service rifles. Thanks. Yes. Keep in mind, ammo choice and shooter technique are contributing factors which can help/hurt group sizes. Eta: I have to ask....why CHF and are you dead set on BCM? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 9:46:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bravo says firearms says its hammer forged barrel on uppers has "outstanding accuracy" and a chrome bore and chamber. Any disagreement? I like BCMs products…”outstanding accuracy” is not their forte from my experience…”good” to “acceptable” would be more accurate. YMMV. If accuracy is what you seek, look at Criterion (not CHF), Daniel Defense, et al. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 10:22:03 PM EDT
[#18]
Tigwelder,
I'm not set on BCM or Cold Hammer Forged barrels, but I though I would pick up a Bravo upper with that kind of barrel. What I did not know, but know now thanks to you and others on this forum, was the accuracy level of the barrel. I already have Colts and Andersen lowers with Colt uppers. Next up for me will be an AR with a higher accuracy level. Daniel Defense and Criterion have been suggested. What, if anything, might you add to that list? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 10:34:27 PM EDT
[#19]
I have had good luck with PSA HF but that was many moons ago. Less than a handful of places that make CHF pipes.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 11:07:09 PM EDT
[#20]
I have several of the PSA FN CHF/CL barrels & one of those from Centurion. All are great shooters. Will I win any long range shooting competitions with them, no, but I didn't buy them for that either & many of the people who are buying match grade barrels for that, aren't winning any long range competitions either. I've only shot them out to 200 yards & they are all 10.5" barrels but all but one has put together 1MOA or less groups & the other still put together some 1.25" groups and I haven't shot that one as much to see if there's a different ammo it likes. Those are plenty accurate for me & I know they will hold up over time & not need replaced as soon as a stainless steel barrel would be.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/3/2021 11:27:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have had very good luck with DD and Centurion HF barrels. Accuracy is around MOA with them. A BCM i had wasn't bad either but was closer to 2 moa. They all fit their roles and performed well Gas port diameter is also an important consideration when buying iMO My Centurion shoots lights out....  Failed To Load Title |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:41:54 AM EDT
[#22]
Check out the results of the Australian rifle trials from the 80s with the Steyr AUG (CHF chrome lined barrel) vs the Colt M16A2 (button cut, chrome lined barrel).
https://www.mediafire.com/file/r6xjht7gfczas1a/Australian_Army_AUG_Evaluation_Report_-_Complete%252C_OCR%2527d.pdf/file Long story short: The AUG destroyed the Colt in accuracy and barrel life |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 8:15:48 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. Keep in mind, ammo choice and shooter technique are contributing factors which can help/hurt group sizes. Eta: I have to ask....why CHF and are you dead set on BCM? This...w/o these requisites, a barrel's accuracy is marginal at best. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 8:35:17 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Check out the results of the Australian rifle trials from the 80s with the Steyr AUG (CHF chrome lined barrel) vs the Colt M16A2 (button cut, chrome lined barrel). Rifling is usually buttoned or cut not both. It’s different methods. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 10:03:09 AM EDT
[#25]
He could mean broached but that’s unusual.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 10:52:08 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s an FN hammered barrel. They have various grades but the one BCM uses is a strong performer in the service rifle class. I was finally able to get one of their uppers after looking and waiting for one. I didn't realize they made some bbls that were NOT chf. I'm pissed that mine isn't. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 12:21:48 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was finally able to get one of their uppers after looking and waiting for one. I didn't realize they made some bbls that were NOT chf. I'm pissed that mine isn't. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It’s an FN hammered barrel. They have various grades but the one BCM uses is a strong performer in the service rifle class. I was finally able to get one of their uppers after looking and waiting for one. I didn't realize they made some bbls that were NOT chf. I'm pissed that mine isn't. Why? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 12:28:53 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It’s an FN hammered barrel. They have various grades but the one BCM uses is a strong performer in the service rifle class. I was finally able to get one of their uppers after looking and waiting for one. I didn't realize they made some bbls that were NOT chf. I'm pissed that mine isn't. Why? All the barrels they make for the military are not CHF. I think they have it down... |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:06:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It’s an FN hammered barrel. They have various grades but the one BCM uses is a strong performer in the service rifle class. I was finally able to get one of their uppers after looking and waiting for one. I didn't realize they made some bbls that were NOT chf. I'm pissed that mine isn't. Why? Because I wanted a 14.5" upper as close to mil-spec as possible since I could never find a Colt. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:06:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the barrels they make for the military are not CHF. I think they have it down... They aren't? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:27:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They aren't? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All the barrels they make for the military are not CHF. I think they have it down... They aren't? Nope. From the very first M16 to the current M4s they never have been. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:29:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They aren't? The barrels that FN makes for M4's are not CHF, but the barrels they make for the 240 & 249 are. Those are the CHF double CL "machine gun steel" barrels as FN calls them. I wouldn't go by what the military does or doesn't use as my sole determining factor on what to use in my weapons. Obviously if you are making a clone & want to be as accurate as possible, then you'd want to not use a CHF barrel on an M4 clone. We used to have a saying when I was in & I think they still do, that "Remember your weapon/gear was made by the lowest bidder". Even at that it's not a budget thing, if anything it would be cheaper for them to make the CHF barrels, but the military requires the M4 barrels not be CHF & that decision is almost certainly made by some generals that know next to nothing about guns in general but know it's always been done that way & besides it was those damn nazi's that started the whole CHF stuff & we don't want to be like nazi's.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:32:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They aren't? Brownells carries FN chrome lined button cut barrels that they claim are the same as the military uses; they're not listed as CHF: https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/ar-15-bb-m16-barrels-prod138080.aspx I bought a 20" for an A4 build.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:35:46 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brownells carries FN chrome lined button cut barrels that they claim are the same as the military uses; they're not listed as CHF: https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/ar-15-bb-m16-barrels-prod138080.aspx I bought a 20" for an A4 build. https://maxicon.com/guns/ar/FN-10-in-M16A2_01b.JPG Maybe it's just oil making it look like this, but that looks like a nitride finish. I think they still use phosphate coating on milspec barrels. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:39:20 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe it's just oil making it look like this, but that looks like a nitride finish. I think they still use phosphate coating on milspec barrels. Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe it's just oil making it look like this, but that looks like a nitride finish. I think they still use phosphate coating on milspec barrels. It's the oil. I'm not ready to send it off for the FSB install, and haven't cleaned it up yet. Outside, the barrels are treated with a manganese-phosphate finish that resists corrosion. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:41:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nope. From the very first M16 to the current M4s they never have been. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: All the barrels they make for the military are not CHF. I think they have it down... They aren't? Nope. From the very first M16 to the current M4s they never have been. Well hell, Ok then.  That makes me a happy camper! Crazy, this whole time I thought they were chf for the military. Huh... |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:43:55 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The barrels that FN makes for M4's are not CHF, but the barrels they make for the 240 & 249 are. Those are the CHF double CL "machine gun steel" barrels as FN calls them. I wouldn't go by what the military does or doesn't use as my sole determining factor on what to use in my weapons. Obviously if you are making a clone & want to be as accurate as possible, then you'd want to not use a CHF barrel on an M4 clone. We used to have a saying when I was in & I think they still do, that "Remember your weapon/gear was made by the lowest bidder". Even at that it's not a budget thing, if anything it would be cheaper for them to make the CHF barrels, but the military requires the M4 barrels not be CHF & that decision is almost certainly made by some generals that know next to nothing about guns in general but know it's always been done that way & besides it was those damn nazi's that started the whole CHF stuff & we don't want to be like nazi's. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They aren't? The barrels that FN makes for M4's are not CHF, but the barrels they make for the 240 & 249 are. Those are the CHF double CL "machine gun steel" barrels as FN calls them. I wouldn't go by what the military does or doesn't use as my sole determining factor on what to use in my weapons. Obviously if you are making a clone & want to be as accurate as possible, then you'd want to not use a CHF barrel on an M4 clone. We used to have a saying when I was in & I think they still do, that "Remember your weapon/gear was made by the lowest bidder". Even at that it's not a budget thing, if anything it would be cheaper for them to make the CHF barrels, but the military requires the M4 barrels not be CHF & that decision is almost certainly made by some generals that know next to nothing about guns in general but know it's always been done that way & besides it was those damn nazi's that started the whole CHF stuff & we don't want to be like nazi's. Lol, awesome info. Thanks! I'm feeling much better now. I could have sworn that BCM used chf as a standard for their builds. I must be remembering wrong or something. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:48:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brownells carries FN chrome lined button cut barrels that they claim are the same as the military uses; they're not listed as CHF: https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/barrel-parts/rifle-barrels/ar-15-bb-m16-barrels-prod138080.aspx I bought a 20" for an A4 build. https://maxicon.com/guns/ar/FN-10-in-M16A2_01b.JPG Very nice.Thanks guys for all the info! |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:52:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My accuracy desires are to at least match the M4 and similar military rifles in M16 platform. Don't know about ammo. Will have to experiment. The military's minimum acceptable accuracy for the M4 or M16 rifle is 4 MOA. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 1:56:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The military's minimum acceptable accuracy for the M4 or M16 rifle is 4 MOA. Exactly. That's why I generally don't use the military to decide what I should or shouldn't use to build my firearms. They are great in the sense that we have a uniform "milspec" pattern for all manufacturers to go by, even if all those milspec parts aren't actually milspec but at least there is a uniform measurement for them to base parts off of. They also do a lot of field testing & torture testing on the stuff they do use so they at least give us an idea of how well the stuff they do use holds up. That's not to say other things won't hold up better or nearly as good. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 2:21:06 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Well hell, Ok then. That makes me a happy camper! Crazy, this whole time I thought they were chf for the military. Huh... So it wasn’t a performance issue? Don’t get caught up in silly marketing stuff. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 2:50:53 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well hell, Ok then. That makes me a happy camper! Crazy, this whole time I thought they were chf for the military. Huh... As stated, button broached/CLd for US .MIL. Colt Canada .mil barrels are CHF/CLd. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 3:35:39 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As stated, button broached/CLd for US .MIL. Colt Canada .mil barrels are CHF/CLd. SOCOM uses hammered barrels. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 3:40:37 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SOCOM uses hammered barrels. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As stated, button broached/CLd for US .MIL. Colt Canada .mil barrels are CHF/CLd. SOCOM uses hammered barrels. Speaking of issued guns built to the TDP, of M4/M16 flavor. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 5:05:30 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The military's minimum acceptable accuracy for the M4 or M16 rifle is 4 MOA. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My accuracy desires are to at least match the M4 and similar military rifles in M16 platform. Don't know about ammo. Will have to experiment. The military's minimum acceptable accuracy for the M4 or M16 rifle is 4 MOA. That accuracy is the product of their whole system: Horrid trigger, non floated barrel, and junk M855 ammo. Those mil-spec barrels aren’t the limiting factor in that spec. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/4/2021 7:48:34 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So it wasn’t a performance issue? Don’t get caught up in silly marketing stuff. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well hell, Ok then. That makes me a happy camper! Crazy, this whole time I thought they were chf for the military. Huh... So it wasn’t a performance issue? Don’t get caught up in silly marketing stuff. I don't know about the performance, I haven't shot it yet. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2021 2:49:05 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those who bitch about CHF are comparing to cut rifled match barrels, IIRC. Average CHF is probably better than average button-rifled. That's true, but very carefully worded. There are many pull button rifled match barrels that are every bit as accurate as the best cut rifled match barrel. Consider Lilja, for example. The advantage to manufacturers of CHF is cost. Once the very high initial tooling cost is recovered, it is the fastest and cheapest way to produce barrels. They can be accurate, often moa, but not typically reliably sub 1/2 MOA as can be done with benchrest quality pull button or single point cut rifling. I agree that you will not likely find CHF barrels in serious precision shooting or benchrest. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2021 4:35:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's true, but very carefully worded. There are many pull button rifled match barrels that are every bit as accurate as the best cut rifled match barrel. Consider Lilja, for example. Well, I guess if I go to my grave with the worst epithet attributed to my thoughts is that I was "carefully worded", I could live with that. I don't actually expect things to work out that way, but I'd be content if they did. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2021 4:46:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That accuracy is the product of their whole system: Horrid trigger, non floated barrel, and junk M855 ammo. Those mil-spec barrels aren’t the limiting factor in that spec. Yup.  ... |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
